Texas Winter 2020-2021

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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7481 Postby Iceresistance » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:11 pm

Storm Season Forum: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=121693
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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7482 Postby InfernoFlameCat » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:11 pm

Iceresistance wrote:
cheezyWXguy wrote:
aggiecutter wrote:Looks like the first major severe weather outbreak could occur around the March 6th timeframe.




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Was thinking that too, based off of the 12z gfs. That’s a straight up bowling ball rolling through the SW

A similar severe weather outbreak took place in Oklahoma in March 2019, there were several waves of storms (One of them was showing a well-defined hook on the radar), but no tornadoes in Central Oklahoma, & the reason why is because there was no deep moisture for the tornado development on that setup compared to the 3 prime months for tornadoes (April, May & June)

The one that might occur now would have ample moisture to do whatever it wanted there. This should be moved to the storm season section for discussion.
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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7483 Postby cheezyWXguy » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:38 pm

InfernoFlameCat wrote:
Iceresistance wrote:
cheezyWXguy wrote:Was thinking that too, based off of the 12z gfs. That’s a straight up bowling ball rolling through the SW

A similar severe weather outbreak took place in Oklahoma in March 2019, there were several waves of storms (One of them was showing a well-defined hook on the radar), but no tornadoes in Central Oklahoma, & the reason why is because there was no deep moisture for the tornado development on that setup compared to the 3 prime months for tornadoes (April, May & June)

The one that might occur now would have ample moisture to do whatever it wanted there. This should be moved to the storm season section for discussion.

I think it’s fair game in both places since were talking about weather in Texas before 3-1. The date of discussion determines which season’s thread, not the event date.

It looks like the main limiting factor on that run is timing, and certainly not moisture, as you said. If that gets slowed down 6 hours, ntx takes the brunt on March 5. Otherwise we get some heavy rain and the target shifts east.

All of this under the lofty assumption that the setup doesn’t change in the next 10-11 days, of course
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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7484 Postby Ntxw » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:51 pm

Models are still a bit all over the place with the beginning of March system. One thing is for sure, some rain to fill the coffers.

Another map of the Arctic Blast. How rare it is the southern plains (including Texas) gets to the epicenter of Global cold. Other cold snaps will happen but to be in our neck of the woods centered may take another half century, they'll likely steer to the east or west. 1983 was stronger to our Northwest, and 1989 was stronger to our east. So say what you will about other cold outbreaks being "bigger" they were not Texas-focused.

 https://twitter.com/MJVentrice/status/1363871547853856772


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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7485 Postby orangeblood » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:51 pm

Ntxw wrote:Models are still a bit all over the place with the beginning of March system. One thing is for sure, some rain to fill the coffers.

Another map of the Arctic Blast. How rare it is the southern plains (including Texas) gets to the epicenter of Global cold. Other cold snaps will happen but to be in our neck of the woods centered may take another half century, they'll likely steer to the east or west. 1983 was stronger to our Northwest, and 1989 was stronger to our east. So say what you will about other cold outbreaks being "bigger" they were not Texas-focused.

https://twitter.com/MJVentrice/status/1363871547853856772


Yep, it was a near perfect setup for southern plains focused cold. But as we've discussed several times over the years....climatologically speaking, we were due for something like this and not out of the question that these setups come in consecutive years as well!! Now is the time for ERCOT to get their act together - stop building wind turbines, focus on infrastructure rebuilds/improvement and stress test the living crap out of the system!!!
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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7486 Postby cheezyWXguy » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:18 pm

orangeblood wrote:
Ntxw wrote:Models are still a bit all over the place with the beginning of March system. One thing is for sure, some rain to fill the coffers.

Another map of the Arctic Blast. How rare it is the southern plains (including Texas) gets to the epicenter of Global cold. Other cold snaps will happen but to be in our neck of the woods centered may take another half century, they'll likely steer to the east or west. 1983 was stronger to our Northwest, and 1989 was stronger to our east. So say what you will about other cold outbreaks being "bigger" they were not Texas-focused.

https://twitter.com/MJVentrice/status/1363871547853856772


Yep, it was a near perfect setup for southern plains focused cold. But as we've discussed several times over the years....climatologically speaking, we were due for something like this and not out of the question that these setups come in consecutive years as well!! Now is the time for ERCOT to get their act together - stop building wind turbines, focus on infrastructure rebuilds/improvement and stress test the living crap out of the system!!!

But it wasn’t the wind turbines though. They only made up a sixth of the initial power generation failures and for the exact reason natural gas generation and “transportation” (note: pipelines store gas, they don’t transport it) failed - lack of weather proofing. Turbines were apparently back to producing at peak capacity before the cold outbreak ended.
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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7487 Postby bubba hotep » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:20 pm

I can't complain since MBY did pretty well but I'll always have a bit of a bitter taste since that 2nd system came out as two pieces of energy and not a single coherent big hitting snow storm.

Image
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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7488 Postby orangeblood » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:23 pm

cheezyWXguy wrote:
orangeblood wrote:
Ntxw wrote:Models are still a bit all over the place with the beginning of March system. One thing is for sure, some rain to fill the coffers.

Another map of the Arctic Blast. How rare it is the southern plains (including Texas) gets to the epicenter of Global cold. Other cold snaps will happen but to be in our neck of the woods centered may take another half century, they'll likely steer to the east or west. 1983 was stronger to our Northwest, and 1989 was stronger to our east. So say what you will about other cold outbreaks being "bigger" they were not Texas-focused.

https://twitter.com/MJVentrice/status/1363871547853856772


Yep, it was a near perfect setup for southern plains focused cold. But as we've discussed several times over the years....climatologically speaking, we were due for something like this and not out of the question that these setups come in consecutive years as well!! Now is the time for ERCOT to get their act together - stop building wind turbines, focus on infrastructure rebuilds/improvement and stress test the living crap out of the system!!!

But it wasn’t the wind turbines though. They only made up a sixth of the initial power generation failures and for the exact reason natural gas generation and “transportation” (note: pipelines store gas, they don’t transport it) failed - lack of weather proofing. Turbines were apparently back to producing at peak capacity before the cold outbreak ended.


That appears to be a false narrative being spread around by certain members of the media...it's clear looking at the ERCOT production data which source failed us or at least was extremely unreliable. The added boost from wind capacity would've kept us clear of rolling blackouts that set the failures in motion but it's clear they couldn't produce to near installed capacity! While Nat Gas ramped up significantly but couldn't carry entire load because the system, with added renewables (unreliables ??) over past 10-15 years, isn't set up for Nat Gas to carry a significant majority of the load any longer.

Image

Image
Last edited by orangeblood on Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7489 Postby orangeblood » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:37 pm

bubba hotep wrote:I can't complain since MBY did pretty well but I'll always have a bit of a bitter taste since that 2nd system came out as two pieces of energy and not a single coherent big hitting snow storm.

https://i.ibb.co/dp95sDc/IMG-20210222-151625.jpg


Yes, most of the model qpf forecast output failed on that 2nd system. One thing that stands out to me though, notice how these storms were almost a mirror image of the big snow storm back in January where southwest got clobbered, northeast barely a flake. IMO Mother Nature put together a masterpiece this winter in the southern plains!!!
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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7490 Postby cheezyWXguy » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:58 pm

orangeblood wrote:
cheezyWXguy wrote:
orangeblood wrote:
Yep, it was a near perfect setup for southern plains focused cold. But as we've discussed several times over the years....climatologically speaking, we were due for something like this and not out of the question that these setups come in consecutive years as well!! Now is the time for ERCOT to get their act together - stop building wind turbines, focus on infrastructure rebuilds/improvement and stress test the living crap out of the system!!!

But it wasn’t the wind turbines though. They only made up a sixth of the initial power generation failures and for the exact reason natural gas generation and “transportation” (note: pipelines store gas, they don’t transport it) failed - lack of weather proofing. Turbines were apparently back to producing at peak capacity before the cold outbreak ended.


That appears to be a false narrative being spread around by certain members of the media...it's clear looking at the ERCOT production data which source failed us or at least was extremely unreliable. The added boost from wind capacity would've kept us clear of rolling blackouts that set the failures in motion but it's clear they couldn't produce to near installed capacity! While Nat Gas ramped up significantly but couldn't carry entire load because the system, with added renewables (unreliables ??) over past 10-15 years, isn't set up for Nat Gas to carry a significant majority of the load any longer.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EujrvkAVEAA14G4?format=jpg&name=medium

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eurh_7cWYAABhGB?format=png&name=900x900


As reported here by the Texas Tribune on Feb. 16, ERCOT said that thermal sources, such as coal, gas and nuclear, lost nearly twice as much power due to the cold than renewable energy sources, which contributed to just 13% of the power outages (here).

As temperatures drop to record lows, a phenomenon known as “freeze-off” is hitting parts of Texas hard, according to a report from The Verge (here). Due to natural gas wells and pipes that are ill-equipped for cold weather, “liquid inside wells, pipes, and valves froze solid.”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2AJ2EI
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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7491 Postby orangeblood » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:33 pm

cheezyWXguy wrote:
orangeblood wrote:
cheezyWXguy wrote:But it wasn’t the wind turbines though. They only made up a sixth of the initial power generation failures and for the exact reason natural gas generation and “transportation” (note: pipelines store gas, they don’t transport it) failed - lack of weather proofing. Turbines were apparently back to producing at peak capacity before the cold outbreak ended.


That appears to be a false narrative being spread around by certain members of the media...it's clear looking at the ERCOT production data which source failed us or at least was extremely unreliable. The added boost from wind capacity would've kept us clear of rolling blackouts that set the failures in motion but it's clear they couldn't produce to near installed capacity! While Nat Gas ramped up significantly but couldn't carry entire load because the system, with added renewables (unreliables ??) over past 10-15 years, isn't set up for Nat Gas to carry a significant majority of the load any longer.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EujrvkAVEAA14G4?format=jpg&name=medium

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eurh_7cWYAABhGB?format=png&name=900x900


As reported here by the Texas Tribune on Feb. 16, ERCOT said that thermal sources, such as coal, gas and nuclear, lost nearly twice as much power due to the cold than renewable energy sources, which contributed to just 13% of the power outages (here).

As temperatures drop to record lows, a phenomenon known as “freeze-off” is hitting parts of Texas hard, according to a report from The Verge (here). Due to natural gas wells and pipes that are ill-equipped for cold weather, “liquid inside wells, pipes, and valves froze solid.”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2AJ2EI


No disrespect but with the disingenuous news that runs rampant in our world today, IMO it's extremely beneficial for us all to search for the truth individually and present the actual data in forums such as these. Not saying Reuters is always disingenuous but in this instance, the data doesn't appear to back up their narrative.

The data breakdown below is what actual occurred before and after the forced blackouts. Wind collapsed well before any decrease in Nat Gas inputs putting strain on the entire system. Majority of the "freeze offs" Reuters is referencing occurred once rolling blackouts were initiated - the biggest culprit being Electricity being cut-off to Nat Gas production facilities causing nat gas wells to "freeze". It was the inadequate reliability of the renewables, which accounted for almost 25% of all ERCOT production last year, that set the wheels in motion for a collapse. I believe we need to start with the first domino that fell in this crisis, wind, and then work forwards to have an honest discussion on how to fix these issues.

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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7492 Postby Quixotic » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:53 pm

orangeblood wrote:
cheezyWXguy wrote:
orangeblood wrote:
That appears to be a false narrative being spread around by certain members of the media...it's clear looking at the ERCOT production data which source failed us or at least was extremely unreliable. The added boost from wind capacity would've kept us clear of rolling blackouts that set the failures in motion but it's clear they couldn't produce to near installed capacity! While Nat Gas ramped up significantly but couldn't carry entire load because the system, with added renewables (unreliables ??) over past 10-15 years, isn't set up for Nat Gas to carry a significant majority of the load any longer.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EujrvkAVEAA14G4?format=jpg&name=medium

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eurh_7cWYAABhGB?format=png&name=900x900


As reported here by the Texas Tribune on Feb. 16, ERCOT said that thermal sources, such as coal, gas and nuclear, lost nearly twice as much power due to the cold than renewable energy sources, which contributed to just 13% of the power outages (here).

As temperatures drop to record lows, a phenomenon known as “freeze-off” is hitting parts of Texas hard, according to a report from The Verge (here). Due to natural gas wells and pipes that are ill-equipped for cold weather, “liquid inside wells, pipes, and valves froze solid.”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2AJ2EI


No disrespect but with the disingenuous news that runs rampant in our world today, IMO it's extremely beneficial for us all to search for the truth individually and present the actual data in forums such as these. Not saying Reuters is always disingenuous but in this instance, the data doesn't appear to back up their narrative.

The data breakdown below is what actual occurred before and after the forced blackouts. Wind collapsed well before any decrease in Nat Gas inputs putting strain on the entire system. Majority of the "freeze offs" Reuters is referencing occurred once rolling blackouts were initiated - the biggest culprit being Electricity being cut-off to Nat Gas production facilities causing nat gas wells to "freeze". It was the inadequate reliability of the renewables, which accounted for almost 25% of all ERCOT production last year, that set the wheels in motion for a collapse. I believe we need to start with the first domino that fell in this crisis, wind, and then work forwards to have an honest discussion on how to fix these issues.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eura15hWQAU3rwM?format=png&name=900x900


It might help....you know....if they winterized and prepared. They didn't because they aren't federally regulated and are purely in it for profit. This exact post-mortum was given after the 2011 outbreak and they didn't change a thing. Trying to blame it on wind and solar which is 13% of your input is disingenuous at best.
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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7493 Postby cheezyWXguy » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:00 pm

orangeblood wrote:
cheezyWXguy wrote:
orangeblood wrote:
That appears to be a false narrative being spread around by certain members of the media...it's clear looking at the ERCOT production data which source failed us or at least was extremely unreliable. The added boost from wind capacity would've kept us clear of rolling blackouts that set the failures in motion but it's clear they couldn't produce to near installed capacity! While Nat Gas ramped up significantly but couldn't carry entire load because the system, with added renewables (unreliables ??) over past 10-15 years, isn't set up for Nat Gas to carry a significant majority of the load any longer.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EujrvkAVEAA14G4?format=jpg&name=medium

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eurh_7cWYAABhGB?format=png&name=900x900


As reported here by the Texas Tribune on Feb. 16, ERCOT said that thermal sources, such as coal, gas and nuclear, lost nearly twice as much power due to the cold than renewable energy sources, which contributed to just 13% of the power outages (here).

As temperatures drop to record lows, a phenomenon known as “freeze-off” is hitting parts of Texas hard, according to a report from The Verge (here). Due to natural gas wells and pipes that are ill-equipped for cold weather, “liquid inside wells, pipes, and valves froze solid.”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2AJ2EI


No disrespect but with the disingenuous news that runs rampant in our world today, IMO it's extremely beneficial for us all to search for the truth individually and present the actual data in forums such as these. Not saying Reuters is always disingenuous but in this instance, the data doesn't appear to back up their narrative.

The data breakdown below is what actual occurred before and after the forced blackouts. Wind collapsed well before any decrease in Nat Gas inputs putting strain on the entire system. Majority of the "freeze offs" Reuters is referencing occurred once rolling blackouts were initiated - the biggest culprit being Electricity being cut-off to Nat Gas production facilities causing nat gas wells to "freeze". It was the inadequate reliability of the renewables, which accounted for almost 25% of all ERCOT production last year, that set the wheels in motion for a collapse. I believe we need to start with the first domino that fell in this crisis, wind, and then work forwards to have an honest discussion on how to fix these issues.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eura15hWQAU3rwM?format=png&name=900x900

I’m just quoting the part that takes ERCOT’s direct statement. I’m not trashing natural gas, your sources, or propping up wind. I’m making the assertion that lack of weatherproofing was the problem with all energy sources and infrastructure. Wind turbines can function just fine in temps that cold, and currently do in places like Scandinavia and Greenland.
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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7494 Postby Cerlin » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:20 pm

In addition to the statements above, ERCOT was only supposed to rely on 7% of wind power during the winter anyway. A total loss in wind power shouldn’t have resulted in 4.5 million people without power and that would have been greatly reduced if winterization of pipes occurred. 2/3rds of the power outages occurred from natural gas related issues and that’s unacceptable from a state that relies so heavily on gas.
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Let it snow NTX!

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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7495 Postby rwfromkansas » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:22 pm

TheAustinMan wrote:A little recap I made of the cold snap. There was a lot to keep track of, so let me know if something's off. Probably a few things will change as more information comes to light. You can find the full-resolution version on this link.

Minimum temperatures during the period are based on the NCEP Real-Time Mesoscale Analysis, which has been pretty accurate but might be off by a few degrees for some localities. The snow contours I've drawn are based very roughly on a lot of things... the NOAA National Snowfall Analysis, the maps from WFOs, LSRs, station reports... turns out it's very hard to make a snow accumulation map when a bunch of reports give conflicting estimates within miles of each other. Oh well. Hope the general idea is there.

Source: Graphic generated by me, with data from a bunch of different sources.
https://i.imgur.com/5RLlvOy.jpg

Here's the minimum temperature map again with the familiar Tropical Tidbits temperature color scheme and a few contours penned in:

Source: Graphic generated by me, with data from RTMA. RTMA raw gridded data is available at this FTP link, though recent hourly data is offered in a more digestible form at Pivotal Weather if you're ever looking for a quick snapshot of the state of the weather.
https://i.imgur.com/65UI2Rc.png

Still no water here in Austin. Hoping that changes this weekend as the thaw appears to have taken care of most of snow and icepack from the week. Aside from a few local areas in the Panhandle and Northeastern Texas, the HRRR shows most of Texas remaining above freezing tonight.


Could I use this in our yearbook? Not sure if I will, but will pass it on to the kids. If so, do you have a higher-res version?
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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7496 Postby Iceresistance » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:31 pm

Cerlin wrote:In addition to the statements above, ERCOT was only supposed to rely on 7% of wind power during the winter anyway. A total loss in wind power shouldn’t have resulted in 4.5 million people without power and that would have been greatly reduced if winterization of pipes occurred. 2/3rds of the power outages occurred from natural gas related issues and that’s unacceptable from a state that relies so heavily on gas.

The reason why the Pipes were not Winterized down in Central & Southern Texas is because something like this rarely comes down that far . . .

Our pipes in Oklahoma are more weatherized because it's further North & Oklahoma is very well known for it's weather extremes . . .
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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7497 Postby Cerlin » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:14 pm

Iceresistance wrote:
Cerlin wrote:In addition to the statements above, ERCOT was only supposed to rely on 7% of wind power during the winter anyway. A total loss in wind power shouldn’t have resulted in 4.5 million people without power and that would have been greatly reduced if winterization of pipes occurred. 2/3rds of the power outages occurred from natural gas related issues and that’s unacceptable from a state that relies so heavily on gas.

The reason why the Pipes were not Winterized down in Central & Southern Texas is because something like this rarely comes down that far . . .

Our pipes in Oklahoma are more weatherized because it's further North & Oklahoma is very well known for it's weather extremes . . .

Right, but after the 1989 Outbreak in Texas, the state "issued a number of recommendations aimed at improving winterization on the part of the generators” that were lazily followed through and, in large, not implemented, and it led to the 2011 cold snap producing similar widespread rolling blackouts. To which, the federal report I quoted from (https://www.ferc.gov/sites/default/files/2020-04/08-16-11-report.pdf) concluded almost the same thing—there should be standards for winterization and more steps need to be done to ensure the power grid stays on during extreme winter weather outbreaks. However, as evident by the failure that was last week, these measures weren’t implemented. There’s gonna be a study done on this cold snap with another report that will look the exact same as the last reports on other cold snaps with almost the same recommendations, and I doubt ERCOT will actually make any needed changes. Texas needs to start winterizing their pipes or else the next major arctic outbreak will look pretty similar.
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Let it snow NTX!

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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7498 Postby Haris » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:23 pm

On a lighter note -- here are some insane stats I dug up today ..

The 11" at my place 25 miles W of Austin this season is > than the following cities this winter:

Roanoke, VA (10.2")
Baltimore, Maryland (10.1")
Atlantic City, NJ (7.3")
Richmond, VA (7")
Washington D.C (5.4")
Salisbury MD (5.4")
Raleigh NC (1.6")
Norfolk VA (3.4")
Portland OR
Watford City ND
Manning ND
Stanley ND
New Town, ND


:spam: :spam: :spam:
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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7499 Postby Ralph's Weather » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:30 pm

Haris wrote:On a lighter note -- here are some insane stats I dug up today ..

The 11" at my place 25 miles W of Austin this season is > than the following cities this winter:

Roanoke, VA (10.2")
Baltimore, Maryland (10.1")
Atlantic City, NJ (7.3")
Richmond, VA (7")
Washington D.C (5.4")
Salisbury MD (5.4")
Raleigh NC (1.6")
Norfolk VA (3.4")
Portland OR
Watford City ND
Manning ND
Stanley ND
New Town, ND


:spam: :spam: :spam:

It's wild how little snow the Dakotas have had so far.
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orangeblood
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Re: Texas Winter 2020-2021

#7500 Postby orangeblood » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:03 pm

Cerlin wrote:In addition to the statements above, ERCOT was only supposed to rely on 7% of wind power during the winter anyway. A total loss in wind power shouldn’t have resulted in 4.5 million people without power and that would have been greatly reduced if winterization of pipes occurred. 2/3rds of the power outages occurred from natural gas related issues and that’s unacceptable from a state that relies so heavily on gas.


That's an interesting way of looking at it. I just personally believe looking at Wind only through the winter lens is misleading. You lose 60% of installed wind capacity during the winter months (25 GW down to 10 GW). Wind gives you a massive disadvantage right out of the gate to start the winter heating season.

The 15 GW of capacity that we lose during winter months is extremely problematic as it puts way more pressure on our grid during the winter season. There are many more effective all-seasonal energy sources as an alternative. Taking 15 GW off a grid for 1/4th of a year doesn't make a lot of sense. Add 6 GW lost last week, that's 21 GW of energy capacity lost from wind alone. It makes it an extremely unreliable source during a high energy demand time of year. As far as Nat Gas goes, projecting any energy source to perform at a 100% clip during one of the most extreme Arctic Outbreak we've ever seen down here is very unrealistic. It actually performed quite well under the circumstances, almost a 70% effective rate (32 GW produced vs 44 GW capacity). As a comparison, Wind was actually at a 16% effective rate as it's misleading to not include capacity lost during winter months (4 GW produced vs 25 GW capacity)

My original point was to stop adding seasonal/much more unreliable resources like Wind to our Energy Grid and instead lets either 1) use that money to add more reliable energy/non-seasonal/better performing sources like Nat Gas, Nuclear and Coal and/or 2) replace our old/worn down Electricity Grid infrastructure with new and more reliable infrastructure. Although energy diversity is needed, ERCOT has gone too far with renewables as a % of our grid leaving us extremely exposed to extreme situations like last week!! The renewable funds/subsidies could be put to much more effective/efficient uses!

I truly hope no one finds these discussions confrontational, that is not my intention. I just find this to be an extremely important topic and know that there are some really smart people all over this board that can add a lot of valuable insight/opinions, regardless of where you stand!
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