Climate Change worse than expected

Weather events from around the world plus Astronomy and Geology and other Natural events.

Moderator: S2k Moderators

Forum rules

The posts in this forum are NOT official forecast and should not be used as such. They are just the opinion of the poster and may or may not be backed by sound meteorological data. They are NOT endorsed by any professional institution or STORM2K.

Help Support Storm2K
Message
Author
User avatar
cycloneye
Admin
Admin
Posts: 139081
Age: 67
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:54 am
Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico

Climate Change worse than expected

#1 Postby cycloneye » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:13 am

Climate Change is worse than expected an expert says

Image

CHICAGO (AFP) – It seems the dire warnings about the oncoming devastation wrought by global warming were not dire enough, a top climate scientist warned Saturday.

It has been just over a year since the Nobel-winning Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) published a landmark report warning of rising sea levels, expanding deserts, more intense storms and the extinction of up to 30 percent of plant and animal species.

But recent climate studies suggest that report significantly underestimates the potential severity of global warming over the next 100 years, a senior member of the panel warned.

"We now have data showing that from 2000 to 2007, greenhouse gas emissions increased far more rapidly than we expected," said Chris Field, who was a coordinating lead author of the report.

This is "primarily because developing countries like China and India saw a huge upsurge in electric power generation, almost all of it based on coal," Field said in a statement ahead of a presentation to the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

Without decisive action to slow global warming, higher temperatures could ignite tropical forests and thaw the Arctic tundra, potentially releasing billions of tons of carbon dioxide that has been stored for thousands of years.

That could raise temperatures even more and create "a vicious cycle that could spiral out of control by the end of the century."

"We don't want to cross a critical threshold where this massive release of carbon starts to run on autopilot," said Field, a professor of biology and of environmental Earth system science at Stanford University.

The amount of carbon that could be released is staggering.

Since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution and estimated 350 billions tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) has been released through the burning of fossil fuels.

The new estimate of the amount of carbon stored in the Arctic's permafrost soils is around 1,000 billion tons. And the Arctic is warming faster than any other part of the globe.

Several recent climate models have estimated that the loss of tropical rainforests to wildfires, deforestation and other causes could increase the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere from 10 to 100 parts per million by the end of the century.

The current level is about 380 parts per million.

"Tropical forests are essentially inflammable," Field said. "You couldn't get a fire to burn there if you tried. But if they dry out just a little bit, the result can be very large and destructive wildfires."

Recent studies have also shown that global warming is reducing the ocean's ability to store carbon by altering wind patterns in the Southern Ocean.

"As the Earth warms, it generates faster winds over the oceans surrounding Antarctica," Field explained.

"These winds essentially blow the surface water out of the way, allowing water with higher concentrations of CO2 to rise to the surface. This higher-CO2 water is closer to CO2-saturated, so it takes up less carbon dioxide from the atmosphere."

Field is co-chair of the group charged with assessing the impacts of climate change on social, economic and natural systems for the IPCC's fifth assessment due in 2014.

The 2007 fourth assessment presented at a "very conservative range of climate outcomes" but the next report will "include futures with a lot more warming," Field said.

"We now know that, without effective action, climate change is going to be larger and more difficult to deal with than we thought."
0 likes   

caneman

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#2 Postby caneman » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:03 am

Yeah I just read that this morning. That is concerning.
0 likes   

caneman

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#3 Postby caneman » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:06 am

caneman wrote:Yeah I just read that this morning. That is concerning.
As a matter of prudence I've always stated we should do something; however, we should not fall for the world is going to end tomorrow mentality.
0 likes   

User avatar
Dionne
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 1616
Age: 72
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:51 am
Location: SW Mississippi....Alaska transplant via a Southern Belle.

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#4 Postby Dionne » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:40 am

caneman wrote:
caneman wrote:Yeah I just read that this morning. That is concerning.
As a matter of prudence I've always stated we should do something; however, we should not fall for the world is going to end tomorrow mentality.


We are an insidious species. Homo sapiens will not survive. Although the Earth will continue. The Earth was here before we arrived and will be here when we are gone. When will this happen? Who knows. It's a delicate balance. Go up to around 40K feet and look down....see what we have done. We look like a growth in a petri dish. I find it amusing that we discuss saving the planet while we do not have the ability to stop killing each other. I'm not talking politics here....it's history.
0 likes   

caneman

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#5 Postby caneman » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:11 am

I agree with Dionne. I believe there are many more way that the world could end before a supposed man made theory GW would even do us in. LEts start with nuclear weapons, extreme pacification and tolerence of some of the pure evilness of mankind. These 2 things are far more pressing IMHO.
0 likes   

User avatar
vbhoutex
Storm2k Executive
Storm2k Executive
Posts: 28974
Age: 72
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:31 pm
Location: Spring Branch area, Houston, TX
Contact:

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#6 Postby vbhoutex » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:42 pm

AGW is a fact. That has been proven. It's effects are what I find in question when placed against cyclical weather patterns that we all know exist. We have very few years of AGW proof to place against known cyclical weather patterns over hundreds of thousands of years. This is unfortunate, but it is fact and EVERYONE in the public sector and the scientific community need to temper any of their remarks concerning AGW and it's effects with this in mind imo.
Being really blunt about it, when I see what I consider alarmist "propoganda" stating that the sky is falling without accompanying proof(ie, someone counting on/using their position in the community(scientific or otherwise)to "prove" their point/be heard) I tend to turn a deaf ear. JMHO.
0 likes   

Sanibel
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 10348
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2004 11:06 pm
Location: Offshore SW Florida

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#7 Postby Sanibel » Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:12 am

I'm not really sure what the point is? If global warming verifies to the degree it could there would be good reason for alarmism.
0 likes   

User avatar
vbhoutex
Storm2k Executive
Storm2k Executive
Posts: 28974
Age: 72
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:31 pm
Location: Spring Branch area, Houston, TX
Contact:

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#8 Postby vbhoutex » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:04 am

"Alarmism" is one thing. Chicken little the sky is falling tomorrow comments are a whole other ball of wax. Knee jerk reactions to one persons or one groups "facts" is dangerous pure and simple.
0 likes   

caneman

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#9 Postby caneman » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:55 am

Sanibel wrote:I'm not really sure what the point is? If global warming verifies to the degree it could there would be good reason for alarmism.



If, if, if. Let the facts (either way)play out in due course. Intimidation, threats, suppression of free speech, threats to a persons employment will most certainly not get anyone listening to a man made GW threat. When these tactics are used. people go right to well what is their motive? I would rather take my chances and enjoy my rights and freedoms.
0 likes   

Skyhawk
Tropical Storm
Tropical Storm
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 7:50 am
Location: Morgantown, WV

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#10 Postby Skyhawk » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:49 am

What a poor article!

Notice that the title is: Climate change even worse than predicted: expert; however, the article doesn't describe climate change but rather the increase in GHG emisions from 2000-2007. Now maybe the data for 2007 is a surprise but certainly not data going back to 2000. We have known about the emissions from China and India for years, so how is it worse than thought? Wasn't this factored into the 2007 report? One might also ask how the current world wide depression is going to effect emissions. Economic activity may be suppressed for a decade or more. Projections based on last year's emissions are likely to over estimate future emissions.

Has anybody checked who Chris Field is? Here's a link to his bio http://globalecology.stanford.edu/DGE/C ... CHRIS.HTML

He's a biologist. Biologists are typically "math challenged". He's hardly prepared to comment on systems of PDEs which is what a climate model is. Nevertheless he is called a "climate scientist", while millions of physicists, chemists, and engineers with solid math and physical science backgrounds who are qualified to understand have their views on climate change brushed aside because they are not climate scientists. Quite a nice bit of semantic sleight of hand!
0 likes   

User avatar
x-y-no
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 8359
Age: 63
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:14 pm
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#11 Postby x-y-no » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:01 am

Skyhawk wrote:What a poor article!

Notice that the title is: Climate change even worse than predicted: expert; however, the article doesn't describe climate change but rather the increase in GHG emisions from 2000-2007. Now maybe the data for 2007 is a surprise but certainly not data going back to 2000. We have known about the emissions from China and India for years, so how is it worse than thought? Wasn't this factored into the 2007 report? One might also ask how the current world wide depression is going to effect emissions. Economic activity may be suppressed for a decade or more. Projections based on last year's emissions are likely to over estimate future emissions.


Good point. The news here is not that we are observing any larger effect than projected (we aren't) but that the observed rate of emissions is toward the upper end of the IPCC scenarios.


Has anybody checked who Chris Field is? Here's a link to his bio http://globalecology.stanford.edu/DGE/C ... CHRIS.HTML

He's a biologist. Biologists are typically "math challenged". He's hardly prepared to comment on systems of PDEs which is what a climate model is. Nevertheless he is called a "climate scientist", while millions of physicists, chemists, and engineers with solid math and physical science backgrounds who are qualified to understand have their views on climate change brushed aside because they are not climate scientists. Quite a nice bit of semantic sleight of hand!


Also a good point. He would appear to be well qualified to discuss potential biological impact of climate change, but not particularly qualified to discuss how much warming we expect to see.
0 likes   

caneman

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#12 Postby caneman » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:26 am

"As the Earth warms, it generates faster winds over the oceans surrounding Antarctica," Field explained.


REALLY-As THE EARTH WARMS? According to the national climate data center for the last year that has not proven to be the case. In fact, it's just the opposite. Maybe this man made forcing is actually leading us into an ice age ;)

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/climate/re ... ank_pg.gif
0 likes   

User avatar
x-y-no
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 8359
Age: 63
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:14 pm
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#13 Postby x-y-no » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:40 am

caneman wrote:"As the Earth warms, it generates faster winds over the oceans surrounding Antarctica," Field explained.


REALLY-As THE EARTH WARMS? According to the national climate data center for the last year that has not proven to be the case. In fact, it's just the opposite. Maybe this man made forcing is actually leading us into an ice age ;)

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/climate/re ... ank_pg.gif


That link is the continental United States, not the Earth.

Globally, 2007 was the second warmest year in the instrument record. 2008 was the ninth warmest. In all, nine of the ten warmest years in the instrument record were in the last decade.

The ten warmest years all occur within the 12-year period 1997-2008. The two-standard-deviation (95% confidence) uncertainty in comparing recent years is estimated as 0.05°C [ref. 2], so we can only conclude with confidence that 2008 was somewhere within the range from 7th to 10th warmest year in the record.
0 likes   

caneman

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#14 Postby caneman » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:06 am

x-y-no wrote:
caneman wrote:"As the Earth warms, it generates faster winds over the oceans surrounding Antarctica," Field explained.


REALLY-As THE EARTH WARMS? According to the national climate data center for the last year that has not proven to be the case. In fact, it's just the opposite. Maybe this man made forcing is actually leading us into an ice age ;)

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/climate/re ... ank_pg.gif


That link is the continental United States, not the Earth.

Globally, 2007 was the second warmest year in the instrument record. 2008 was the ninth warmest. In all, nine of the ten warmest years in the instrument record were in the last decade.

The ten warmest years all occur within the 12-year period 1997-2008. The two-standard-deviation (95% confidence) uncertainty in comparing recent years is estimated as 0.05°C [ref. 2], so we can only conclude with confidence that 2008 was somewhere within the range from 7th to 10th warmest year in the record.


However, the ice melt has slowed this year. It is things like this that prove more study for alonger period of time is needed to uncover facts with a conclusion down the line. Unfortunately, a conclusion was formed very early on and some people/scientists are trying to find facts to prop it up.
0 likes   

User avatar
x-y-no
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 8359
Age: 63
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:14 pm
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#15 Postby x-y-no » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:13 am

caneman wrote:However, the ice melt has slowed this year. It is things like this that prove more study for alonger period of time is needed to uncover facts with a conclusion down the line. Unfortunately, a conclusion was formed very early on and some people/scientists are trying to find facts to prop it up.


What ice melt are you referring to? If you're talking about the Arctic sea ice, that's not an accurate statement. The 2008 summer minimum was the second lowest extent on record and likely the lowest volume on record.

The latest available glacial mass balance data also indicates continued melting.
0 likes   

Sanibel
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 10348
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2004 11:06 pm
Location: Offshore SW Florida

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#16 Postby Sanibel » Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:58 pm

I'm not really sure any great alarmism movement is occurring out there that I see. And the main example of science being suppressed by intimidation, that I'm aware of, was Hansen. If anything we are reacting too slowly.

The article appears to suggest the greenhouse effect is scientific and that third world countries have increased CO2 unabatedly. Therefore a triggering of permafrost methane will enhance global warming. Nothing new.

I'm not sure I see an equal dislike for bad science over the many anti-global warming theories that have since been disproven.
0 likes   

caneman

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#17 Postby caneman » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:41 pm

Well no offense Sanibel but you wouldn't see it because you like most people in this great debate only see one side. Golly, why do you think the CNN meteorolgist recanted? Did you not read the post about it on this site? Perfect example of people using blinders to fit their pre-determined and unmoving needs/conclusions.
0 likes   

User avatar
gigabite
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 916
Age: 70
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 4:09 pm
Location: Naples, Florida

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#18 Postby gigabite » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:42 pm

Here is some fun facts from NASA. That organization seems to think that solar irradiance needs to rebound for a new near-term global temperature record.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2008/
0 likes   

User avatar
x-y-no
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 8359
Age: 63
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:14 pm
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#19 Postby x-y-no » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:11 pm

gigabite wrote:Here is some fun facts from NASA. That organization seems to think that solar irradiance needs to rebound for a new near-term global temperature record.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2008/


Here's what it actually says at that link:

However, let's assume that the solar irradiance does not recover. In that case, the negative forcing, relative to the mean solar irradiance is equivalent to seven years of CO2 increase at current growth rates. So do not look for a new "Little Ice Age" in any case. Assuming that the solar irradiance begins to recover this year, as expected, there is still some effect on the likelihood of a near-term global temperature record due to the unusually prolonged solar minimum. Because of the large thermal inertia of the ocean, the surface temperature response to the 10-12 year solar cycle lags the irradiance variation by 1-2 years. Thus, relative to the mean, i.e, the hypothetical case in which the sun had a constant average irradiance, actual solar irradiance will continue to provide a negative anomaly for the next 2-3 years.


I don't know about you, but that seems pretty near-term to me.
0 likes   

Sanibel
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 10348
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2004 11:06 pm
Location: Offshore SW Florida

Re: Climate Change worse than expected

#20 Postby Sanibel » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:43 pm

Perfect example of people using blinders to fit their pre-determined and unmoving needs/conclusions.




When I look at posts I look at who deals with the issues via a removed method and who mentions the operating points like methane and unabated CO rises - and who doesn't. The only thing I can think of from the article is that the writer assumes the greenhouse effect is a scientific constant so therefore rising CO2 from third world sources will necessarily worsen global warming. Especially through what he calls feedback from methane released by melting permafrost. I take issue with accusations of political pressure when a real analysis of the pressures involved in this do not originate from the side being accused. I'm not really sure whose hands are tied either.
0 likes   


Return to “Global Weather”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 103 guests