Alternative Power Set Up

[LSU2001]

I have recently set up an alternative power supply to use in case of long term power outages. I currently have a 15kw generator that can be hooked into my home's system through a plug and switch combo (Lowe's $250) but I know that the genny is a gas hog and I cannot store enough fuel for extended outages. I came up with the following setup that should provide light, fan, and coffee almost indefinitly.

four 12 volt deep cycle marine trolling motor batteries about $160 for all at sam's club

four solar powered battery chargers 2.0 amps each $120 for all. at west marine supply

one 350 watt power inverter $100 at academy sports and outdoors.

I figure that the solar powered chargers will supply a continuous trickle charge, providing I have sun, to the batteries and I can quick charge them with my genny.

I can also run my genny for extreme power needs but the battery/solar/inverter can supply constant power and allow me to minimize genny run time. all for about $380-$400. My genny cost me $1900 but I had it to run things at my camp anyway so I did not include that cost in my figures. a small generator could be substituted for around $500.

Any replies/suggestions welcome

Tim

[SeaBrz_FL]

Hi Tim --

Looks like you have an awesome power supply net setup!

Last year, "gennie talk" was a foreign language to me. I only learned enough since then to know that I need to setup a decent system, but the deep tech specs still intimidate me.

I'd love to see more threads here on Storm2K on this same subject.

Thanks!
Jody

[LSU2001]

I also recently found a natural gas/propane/gasoline conversion kit for my generator. This may be a good purchase because I can then run the genny on any of the three fuels. Natural gas sure would be a whole lot easier to deal with than gasoline.
Tim

[drudd1]

Just one suggestion would be to test your system extensively prior to actually needing to use it in a post-storm situation. You have quite a bit going on there, and you need to make sure you have the bugs worked out well in advance. I would run some lights and coffee pots and get a rough idea of recycle time for the deep-cycle batteries. Seeing what the actual performance will be for the solar portion will be critical in determining how you will fare in an extended outage. The one thing you have to be aware of is that the system will never perform exactly in real life as on paper. There are too many variables to go into here, but the only thing that matters is the actual performance. For that you have to test, test, test........

Sounds like you have a neat set-up, way to go, and good luck!

[LSU2001]

I have installed a similar setup at my camp in the marsh with no grid hookup. I use the genny for a/c when needed and the battery setup for lights, etc. It seems to work just fine and the solar chargers put 2.0 amps of energy into the batts. The main problem that I have found is that extended use of the battery system on a cloudy day drains the batteries and I have to charge them from the genny. However, running a fan and lights causes no particular problems if I have plenty of sun. I would not and could not use the battery system for A/C, Coffee, Cooking etc. The genny handles those chores. I would like to get a bigger inverter so I could run the A/C. I use my coleman stove for Coffee and cooking so that is not a big problem. I guess that by using this setup in my camp I have worked out most of the bugs. I started with standard batts and they simply did not work very well. I also started with only one charger and that did not work at all. I guess this system has came out of a 2-3 year period of trial and error.
Tim

[knotimpaired]

Isu2001,

Could you possibly post a link or provide more info for those of us interested in the conversion kit.

Thanks.

[HurriCat]

I do not have a generator, but I saw one die loudly because of low/no oil. It is very important to read the manuals and to check and CHANGE the oil. There is an important break-in period for the engine, and it will prolong the life of the unit (I think that the early hours of operation get the engine broken-in and there is a good bit of tiny metal shavings and bits that are created). This isn't mentioned in many Hurricane Prep sources, but be sure to put in a supply of extra oil for your machines. I'd also add that if it is a new generator, see if a synthetic oil is available - it will cost more, but provides much greater thermal and wear protection (still follow the break-in and oil change recommendations, though).

[drudd1]

The synthetic oil is a great idea, but all engines, including those in a generator, must be taken through the break-in period with regular petroleum based oil. After break-in you can switch to a synthetic.

With any new, re-manufactured, major overhauled or top overhauled engine utilizing proper break-in procedures is critical to avoiding high oil consumption and its related problems. The main purpose of break-in is to seat the compression rings to the cylinder walls.

While a new steel cylinder may look like a smooth surface inside, it really isn't. A stone hone has been used to give the surface microscopic grooves...peaks and valleys so to speak. Each tiny groove acts as the oil reservoir holding oil up to the top level of the groove where it then spreads over the peak surface. The piston ring must travel up and down over this grooved surface, and must "hydroplane" on the oil film retained by the grooves. Otherwise, the ring would make metal-to-metal contact with the cylinder wall and the the cylinder would quickly wear out.

However the ring will only ride on this film of oil if there is sufficient surface area to support the ring on the oil. When the cylinders are freshly honed the peaks are sharp with little surface area. The goal of break-in is seating the rings, to flatten out these peaks to give more surface area to support the rings, while leaving the bottom of the groove intact to hold enough oil to keep the surface of the cylinder wet with oil.

You sometimes hear about cylinders becoming "glazed' if break-in isn't done properly. When glazing occurs, oil oxidizes in the tiny grooves or channels on the cylinder walls, causing the grooves to become plugged with varnish. If the grooves get plugged, they can't do their job of maintaining a consistent oil film on the cylinder walls. The result is usually high oil consumption and blow-by.

Synthetic oil will actually inhibit the break-in process, which is not good. Follow the manufacturers directions for break-in, and then you can switch to the synthetic, which does an awesome job. The fact that it works so well is the very reason you shouldn't use it during the break-in period.

[HurriCat]

Great techno-stuff! This is what is cool - that there is always someone with that specialized info to get all bases covered. Thanks!

[LSU2001]

Below you will find the link for the conversion kits. Notice that on the right side of the page there is a list for specific types of kits. I am interested in Tri-fuel kit for the Generac 15kw generator but the cost is about $400 this may be prohibitive since i recently purchased the battery system.
Tim

Link
http://www.propane-generators.com/

[knotimpaired]

Thanks for the link.

[Alladin]

The synthetic oil is a great idea, but all engines, including those in a generator, must be taken through the break-in period with regular petroleum based oil. After break-in you can switch to a synthetic.

The fact that it works so well is the very reason you shouldn't use it during the break-in period.

Briggs & Stratton is the largest maker of generator air cooled engines. They highly recommend synthetic multi-viscosity oils for use in their engines, including the break-in period.

There is no valid reason to use "regular petroleum based oil" for engine break-in. Synthetic oil can be used for break-in. Many new autos (such as the Corvette) come from the factory with synthetic oil.

[DanKellFla]

Isu, are you going to use a bigger inverter with the batteries or a car/truck? Also, have you compared the price of the bigger inverter with a small generator? My neighboor bought a small generator from Pep-boys for ~$350 that is very efficient. Less than a 1/2 gallon per hour. I think it is 3000 watts.

Next Comment:
Alladin, I used synthetic oil for the first 50,000 miles of a civic that I sold with 256,000 miles on it. I never even changed the head gasket. Synthetic is great stuff. Nor have I ever heard or read anything that says using it durring a break-in is bad or good. But I still won't bother to use it on my generator. For my personal use, it isn't worth it. Typically, I go for about 75 hours after a storm without power. It will take years before I even come close to using up the life of my generator. If I was in business and using it every day that would be different. I would do all that I could to protect my equipment.

[SouthFloridawx]

This is a great thread you guys thanks! Makes me feel like I am not even close to being prepared.

[Alladin]

Typically, I go for about 75 hours after a storm without power. It will take years before I even come close to using up the life of my generator. If I was in business and using it every day that would be different. I would do all that I could to protect my equipment.

During the last 2 years, we have had direct hits by 2 hurricanes and we lost power for 5 days on each occasion. Gasoline becomes a very scarce item after these storms so you must stock up in advance. I keep 80 gallons on hand treated with Briggs & Stratton "Fresh Start" fuel stabilizer.

Aside from engine wear protection, synthetic oil also makes these 10 HP air cooled engines run more economically. Therefore, you don't have to use as much gas. So, for me, synthetic is the way to go. You can buy a 5 gallon jug of Mobil 1, 10W-30 oil at Wal*Mart for $20.86. Cheap insurance IMO. My generator uses 28 oz. of oil so 2 jugs gives me enough for 9 oil changes (450 hours of engine use).

Also, even when power is restored, the gas stations have long lines of people waiting to fill up. The gas stations normally run out of gas due to the huge demand. I don't enjoy standing in line for gas. I take whatever gas I have left from my generator supply and put it into my cars.

When things get back to normal, I refill my generator gas supply and wait for the next storm confident that I can have power for at least 7 days.

[DanKellFla]

I know how you feel. We have been hit by three storms in the last two years. What a pain. I didn't own a generator for any of them. But I did get to borrow a 15kW for one storm, and my neighboors had generators. As nice as the big one was, it was a hog. That is why I finally decided to buy a 5600 Watt Craftsman. Like you say, it is more economical.
Synthetic oil shouldn't make your engine run more economically. All SAE certified oils have the viscosity on the label. A 10W or SAE30 oil has the same viscosity if it is a synthetic or if it is not. This is very important because engines are designed with the expectation of the proper viscosity being used. This doesn't mean that an engine won't work with the wrong oil, it just won't work as well. Synthetics do last longer, so it is possible to increase the time between oil changes. But I don't know how much longer.
Here is a link. (At the bottom, there are more links.)
http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm#Probl ... h%20Coffee

[Alladin]

I
Synthetic oil shouldn't make your engine run more economically. All SAE certified oils have the viscosity on the label. A 10W or SAE30 oil has the same viscosity if it is a synthetic or if it is not. This is very important because engines are designed with the expectation of the proper viscosity being used. This doesn't mean that an engine won't work with the wrong oil, it just won't work as well. Synthetics do last longer, so it is possible to increase the time between oil changes. But I don't know how much longer.

The problem is that air cooled engines run hotter than automotive engines. Use of multi-viscosity "dino" oils (10W-30, etc.) above 40° F (4° C) will result in high oil consumption and possible engine damage. For ambient temperatures above 40º F, the only "dino" oil recommended for air cooled engines is straight SAE 30.

SAE 30 oil definitely reduces fuel economy as compared to any multi-viscosity 10W-30 oil. However, it is foolish to use a multi-viscosity "dino" oil in any air cooled engine due to excessive oil consumption. However, synthetic multi-viscosity oils (5W-30 or 10W-30) are safe and effective for all temperature extremes. You have no fear of increased oil consumption with synthetics.

So really, you have just 2 choices. You can use SAE 30 "dino" oil (and waste more gas) or you can use synthetic multi-viscosity oil and save gas.

Also, when using any synthetic oil you should never extend the oil change interval. That's just asking for trouble.

[DanKellFla]

References?

[Alladin]

References?

Check this link from the Briggs & Stratton site:

http://www.briggsandstratton.com/displa ... ocid=64066

Also this link from Advance Auto Parts:

http://www.advanceautoparts.com/english ... 201so.html


"On the other hand, synthetics are better on a number of levels. They keep the engine cleaner through improved sludge and varnish protection, reduce engine wear at high temperatures with more stable viscosity, protect the engine when it's running under severe conditions at high temperatures, provide better cold-temperature starts with faster oil flow at ignition and improve fuel efficiency."

[LSU2001]

Isu, are you going to use a bigger inverter with the batteries or a car/truck? Also, have you compared the price of the bigger inverter with a small generator? My neighboor bought a small generator from Pep-boys for ~$350 that is very efficient. Less than a 1/2 gallon per hour. I think it is 3000 watts.

Next Comment:
Alladin, I used synthetic oil for the first 50,000 miles of a civic that I sold with 256,000 miles on it. I never even changed the head gasket. Synthetic is great stuff. Nor have I ever heard or read anything that says using it durring a break-in is bad or good. But I still won't bother to use it on my generator. For my personal use, it isn't worth it. Typically, I go for about 75 hours after a storm without power. It will take years before I even come close to using up the life of my generator. If I was in business and using it every day that would be different. I would do all that I could to protect my equipment.

I have recently purchased two 750 watt inverters from Wal-mart for 69.99 each. This gives me plenty of power but will run the batteries down quickly with full load. I takes about 4-5 hours of sunlight to recharge the batts so I will use the addtional power sparingly. Your question dankellfla, about the "small genny" is a good idea and in my original post I stated that a smaller genny would be good. However, 1/2 gallon per hour still means 12 gal of fuel per day for full run time. 3-7 days is 36-84 gallons of fuel. That is for non-stop running. After Katrina we had a very very hard time getting fuel for about 2 weeks here in BR and when we did get fuel it was $3.00+ per gallon. I really like the solar charger/battery/inverter system for light loads and the genny for A/C at night.
Tim