STORM2K • View topic - New Product... Hurricane Panel Locks instead of Plylox

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:02 am 
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What the heck is MP4? I've heard of MP3, a way of downloading low-fi music but MP4 is new to me. I think the plylox sounds like a better system although getting the cut just right could be a problem. I've never seen anybody use corrugated metal for shutters like in the video. Seems too flexible.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:46 pm 
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toplayr,
I looked at the pictures again. I have some questions. Is there a part that is permanently installed in the window frame?

FYI, even if the pipe is flush against a storm panel or a some plywood, vibrations will still occur. This shouldn't be a problem with a corrugated storm panel, but may be with a piece of plywood. The natural frequencies of the corrugated storm panels are very high, but a piece of plywoods frequencies are lower. By having the pipes sit flush too the wood, the natural frequencies are driven higher. It is very probable that these frequencies are high enough not to be a problem, but since this system relies on friction so much (I think?), some testing would really be the only answer. You could hire an engineer to make a computer simulation of this, but I don't think it is worth it. It will cost a lot to make a good and accurate model.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:50 pm 
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Interesting concept.


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 Post subject: RE: Practical Hurricane Protection
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:23 am 
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PlyLox Clips and the expanding bars are both unapproved systems that have not complied with nationally recognized testing standards for large missile impact resistant protection systems. They also do not comply with Florida Building Code Product Approval for protective systems, mainly shutters.

In Florida and other states windstorm discounts and sometimes coverage is based on having an approved systems to protect the openings. Before you buy an unapproved system you should check to see what an approved systems costs, it is usually not that much more.


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 Post subject: Re: RE: Practical Hurricane Protection
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:48 pm 
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DGrimes wrote:
In Florida and other states windstorm discounts and sometimes coverage is based on having an approved systems to protect the openings. Before you buy an unapproved system you should check to see what an approved systems costs, it is usually not that much more.
Do you have any examples of approved systems that cost "not that much more" than a typical plywood system using Plylox?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:09 pm 
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Yes, Lowes sells Fabric-Shield, Gallina, Eastern Metals and Storm Busters Panels, all are FBC Approved Products and qualify for Windstorm Discounts. With the savings typically recouped in one year these systems actually are the same or even cheaper than unapproved Plylox and plywood, the durability and residual values of an Approved system are even greater if you look 3-5 years down the road and may actually give a 100% ROI due to the insurance discounts.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:46 pm 
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DGrimes wrote:
Yes, Lowes sells Fabric-Shield, Gallina, Eastern Metals and Storm Busters Panels, all are FBC Approved Products and qualify for Windstorm Discounts. With the savings typically recouped in one year these systems actually are the same or even cheaper than unapproved Plylox and plywood, the durability and residual values of an Approved system are even greater if you look 3-5 years down the road and may actually give a 100% ROI due to the insurance discounts.
The law provides that the Florida windstorm insurance premium discounts can be as high as 42% for superior wind resistant features. To qualify for that high of a discount, you’d need a lot more than hurricane shutters. The physical location of your home is the biggest factor involved in the discount

Those hurricane shutters you mentioned cost a great deal more than plywood shutters. Recouping the money spent on such expensive shutter systems via Florida windstorm insurance premium discounts is not at all feasible. Hurricane shutter retrofits on existing construction account for a rather minor insurance premium discount adjustment. Larger insurance premium discounts are available only when many other hurricane resistant retrofits are also accomplished such as hurricane straps for roof to wall connections, roof shape modifications (gable, hip, etc.), roof deck type improvements, roof deck attachment method improvements, type of roof cover, addition of secondary water resistance and some other factors. It’s a very expensive process.

The discount formula is very complex and each insurance company is allowed to use their own methods to determine the final discount. In large part the discount depends upon the age and location (wind speed region, terrain and wind-borne debris region) of your house. If your house was built before 2002, hurricane retrofits are going to be very expensive and you’ll never recoup the costs. In short, it is not uncommon to spend thousands of dollars on shutter systems only to realize a very small premium discount or no discount at all.

Based upon the simple cost benefit ratio, plywood shutter systems make much more sense. More private homes and commercial properties use plywood storm shutters than any other method.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:32 pm 
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One note on plywood, you need at least 5/8" and preferably 3/4" thickness. 1/2" (15/32") won't cut it. Plylox makes clips for 5/8" and 3/4" plywood thickness, though you may have to special order them. Plylox is not meant for wood/vinyl window frames.

As for securing any panels to your window, make sure all fastening screws go into the studs. Attaching anything to brick veneer without going through the brick into the studs behind them isn't going to be secure.

I've been looking at the fabric shield system by Wayne-Dalton:

http://www.wayne-dalton.com/Fabric-Shield.asp

They're more durable than plywood or metal shutters and A LOT easier to install/remove. You can roll them up and put them in a closet when not in use. Not cheap, though. I think the cost is about $7/sq ft installed. That can come out to $200-$300 per window. Lots of preparation work in setting the anchors as they must go into studs. I think the anchor bolts are 8" long (for brick veneer). Benefits are that they're not likely to fail no matter how much they're hit by debris. And they won't let water (or much air) through even if the window behind them is broken.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:46 pm 
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Homemade ½” plywood shutters can offer a very high level of protection from flying objects in a hurricane. If they are made properly and installed correctly, they can be very safe and effective. A lot depends on the type and size of the opening that you’re trying to protect. For some big openings, ½” plywood will offer better protection than heavier ¾” plywood. Again, proper installation is the key.

There are lots of different storm panel designs, configurations and materials. Each type has advantages and disadvantages.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:22 am 
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[quote="Alladin"]Homemade ½" plywood shutters can offer a very high level of protection from flying objects in a hurricane. If they are made properly and installed correctly, they can be very safe and effective. A lot depends on the type and size of the opening that you’re trying to protect.

I am glad you bought up the topic of proper installation, the International Building Code and the Florida Building Code both contain a prescriptive method for properly attaching 1/2" plywood shutters, PlyLox and Tension bars are not considered adequate. Further, attachment is limited to openings smaller than 4' x 8' which leaves many openings without an adequate plywood solution.

Your answer on insurance discounts is partly correct but assumes a static universe in terms of premiums and coverage. Yes there are other contributing factors in order to receive the highest discounts of around 60% (Citizens) but you forget that premiums are doubling, tripling or coverage is being dropped from unprotected structures in many coastal areas. Homes with plywood shutters are considered unprotected.

While approved shutter systems may seem more expensive at the outset they can be used over and over for an indefinite period of time, plywood shutters are considered to be temporary and are generally salvaged after 2-3 installs.

Approved shutters also:

1) Retain 65%-85% of the cost as reflected in the appraisal value of the home.

2) Qualify for windstorm discounts, can be thousands in one year in this area, or may make the difference between being covered and not being covered in some cases.

3) Makes the home more marketable since consumers are beginning to shop the insurability of a home before buying.

Plywood is a good emergency preparation system if properly mounted using permanent fasteners that transfer loads to the framing of the structure but, it will will not increase the value of a home nor reduce premiums. When you compare all of the benefits of an approved system and the savings accrued year after year; plywood is not so cost effective.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:09 pm 
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Expensive hurricane shutters have no chance of paying for themselves due to either lower insurance premiums or increased resale value of the house. It can be a worthwhile project if only because it makes the homeowner feel more secure in the knowledge that the house has protection. The objective with hurricane shutters is to protect the house. Lowering insurance premiums and increased resale value are hollow sales pitches designed to sell expensive shutter systems.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:43 pm 
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I can see your mind is made up but you really do need to do some research before you make assumptions that Approved shutters systems are "expensive" and that they cannot pay for themselves. If there are any fancy sales pitches or gimmicks being employed it is surely on the side of those who would prey on the fears of consumers by seeking to profit by selling untested unapproved protection products.

It is easy to get factual information demonstrating Cost/Benefit ratios, I would be glad to forward you the links so you can run the numbers on any residential structure. The State of Florida is paying half (up to 5000.00) for mitigation improvements that are Code Plus, I might point out that use of plywood is an exception contained in the code that allows for below minimum standard protection.

Talk to someone who had to live in a FEMA trailer for the last two years, my parents and thousands of others around here would disagree with your assumptions strongly, adequate protection is cheap in terms of being able to resume a normal life after a naturally occuring weather event strikes. Being able to afford insurance on a fixed income is a healthy payback for making an informed decision to use only approved and tested products. I have saved over 1000.00 in premiums since I installed my shutters in 1999, this year alone my discount grows to 600.00, I am betting rates will continue to climb. I also recieved an 8,000.00 add on a recent appraisal for shutters that cost less than half the price of a pool cage and my insurance payment has only increased 3.00 a month over the last 5 years. I'd call that a healthy return on investment not to mention I can live in my home before during and after hurricanes, and that my friend, is not expensive, it is priceless.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:33 pm 
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Cost effective storm retrofitting measures are important for most homeowners because former residential building codes did not require a high level of resistance for wind, flood and fire.

Bringing existing residential structures up to current code is cost prohibitive for the average homeowner. Therefore, it is important for every dollar spent on retrofits to be directed toward getting the greatest degree of structural protection.

Retrofit priorities must be established to avoid wasting limited funds on low priority projects. Roof systems including shingles, roof deck attachment, sheathing, underlayment, water resistance, trusses and rafters and gable end bracing are, of course, the most important.

Roof, wall and foundation connections come next on the list followed by replacing standard garage doors.

Hurricane shutter installation would be appropriate after the aforementioned retrofits are accomplished.

Unfortunately, the cost of these retrofits is far more than the average homeowner is willing or able to pay and that is why plywood storm shutters are such a low cost and highly effective option.

It’s more important to spend your money on retrofits to increase the storm resistance of your home and reduce hazards. The objective is not to bring an existing residence up to current code standards.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:13 am 
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For any consumer in Florida who wants to do a quick check on the Discounts and then perform a Cost Benefit Ratio for each insurer chosen visit the link below. Simply answer the questions on each page and hit NEXT. At the end it will give you a rough quote for several insurers or only your insurer depending on option chosen. By clicking on the dicount range of an insurere and answering the Cost Benefit Questions linked on that page you can get general information that will help you prioritize improvements based on the greatest savings and reduction in potential damage. NOTE: If you are currently using plywood for protection then you would click the check box labeled NONE under "Type of Opening Protection."

http://www.dca.state.fl.us/fdem/mitdb/i ... zard.begin

For more information about performing mitigation improvements visit http://www.FLASH.org, http://www.IBHS.org or http://www.MySafeFloridaHome.com.


Alladin, you are correct that the roof is one of the bigger opportunitites for strengthening the home however if the roof covering is still within its usable life only gable bracing is cost effective. As far as the shutter discounts and benefits of vlaue and added performance you are just plain wrong but it's a free country. Homes with weaker roofs and roof to wall connections have a significantly higher chance of survivial if the openings are protected to prevent internal pressurization.

This is not new, we have been buying energy saving appliances windows, doors, and many other products that are also not neccesarily cost effective within the first year or two but over 5-10 years pay for themselves in energy saved and yes, increase the value of the home. (see Annual Cost vs. Value Reports from Remodeling Magazine) The same is true with mitigation improvements. If you consider that Citizens Insurance Group has a 70% discount program and that approved shutters are the largest single discount (38%) then it is obvious that approved shutters represent one of the top priorities not the least.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:40 pm 
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Alladin wrote
Quote:
It’s more important to spend your money on retrofits to increase the storm resistance of your home and reduce hazards. The objective is not to bring an existing residence up to current code standards.


As a State Certified Residential Contractor (CRC 1327100) and a member of the Florida Building Officials Association who regularly works with building code interpretation and enforcement issues, I can confirm the above statement is absolutely wrong. The Florida Building Code- Existing Structures and Building both REQUIRE that structural retrofits are brought up to Code; it is not only intended it is the minimum requirement. Again, it is not cost prohibitive or optional, it is required.

As to standards it is important that any product used also meet current testing standards and are approved. Any structural retrofit including but not limited too, shutters, windows, doors, garage doors, additions, re-roofing and all other components and cladding or alterations of the Main Wind Force Resisting System... is specifically required to be Code compliant. In addition permits and a contractors licenses or owner/contractor exemption are also generally required. Failing to compy with these laws may subject you to fines, penalties, and/or impisonment.

Non-structural products that are decorative in nature or that do not attach to the sub-structure (i.e. will fall off before transmitting loads) are technically not covered by the Code. They also have failed to demonstrate any structural performance and for that reason they are not not to be considered storm or hurricane resistant products. The Code does contain an exception to shutters meeting testing standards. For plywood shutters, attachment to the substructure with permanetly applied anchors of a specific size and penetration is required to be Code compliant. See FBC or IBC 1609.1.4 Opening Protection- Exceptions:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:35 pm 
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If someone desires to buy costly hurricane shutters they may. Based upon tests conducted by independent labs in Florida (and elsewhere) ½” plywood storm shutters have been proven to be a safe and effective method to protect a house or business from hurricane force winds.

Concerning roofs, there are several cost effective methods to greatly improve wind resistance other than just gable end bracing. Gluing down shingle tabs with plastic roof cement is inexpensive and easy (although tedious). In the attic interior, adhesive can be applied from a caulk gun to both sides of the intersection of the rafters to the roof deck. The rafters can be crossed braced as well.

All of these methods are very effective, inexpensive and can be accomplished by the average home handyman.


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 Post subject: Re: New Product... Hurricane Panel Locks instead of Plylox
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:41 am 
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The Florida Building Code- Existing Structures and Building require that structural retrofits are brought up to Code.
And it is not expensive but it is a must.

Roofing Contractors Florida


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 Post subject: Re: New Product... Hurricane Panel Locks instead of Plylox
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:05 pm 
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Oh, that's interesting about structural retrofits. I didn't know that they had to be up to code, but that makes sense of course. I'll have to keep that in mind when I'm buying a new home.

free insurance quotes


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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 7:54 am 
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Al though something is better then nothing that light corrugated metal there using in the video would just not hold up to a sailing 2x4 I would think something as small as a coconut being hurled at that at 80MPH would bust the glass thats just on the other side. That would never pass the Dade / Broward county product approval test. And they don't have any kind of product approval listed on there site county or state. Buyer beware.


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 Post subject: Re: New Product... Hurricane Panel Locks instead of Plylox
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:45 am 
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alexx_2010 wrote:
The Florida Building Code- Existing Structures and Building require that structural retrofits are brought up to Code.
And it is not expensive but it is a must.

Roofing Contractors Florida


and don't forget about The Triple Crown :)


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