2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#61 Postby Fancy1001 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:30 pm

tolakram wrote:
Shell Mound wrote:
Shell Mound wrote:Gonzalo: 55 → 60 kt
TD Ten: 30 → 35 kt (upgrade to TS)
Josephine: 40 → 45 kt
Kyle: 45 → 55 kt
Marco: 65 → 60 kt
Nana: 65 → 55 kt
Paulette: 90 → 95 kt
Sally: 90 → 95 kt
Teddy: 120 → 115 kt
Gamma: 60 → 75 kt
Delta: 125 → 115 kt
Epsilon: 100 → 105 kt
Zeta: 95 → 100 kt
Eta: 130 → 150 kt

No other changes to the remaining systems

Update: added a few more changes


Did you provide any reasoning for those up or downgrades?


I would upgrade Laura from 130 kt to 135 kt. Personally I want to upgrade it to 140kt because there was some evidence, but not enough for a solid upgrade, but there was solid evidence for 135 kt.
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#62 Postby CyclonicFury » Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:33 pm

Shell Mound wrote:
Shell Mound wrote:Gonzalo: 55 → 60 kt
TD Ten: 30 → 35 kt (upgrade to TS)
Josephine: 40 → 45 kt
Kyle: 45 → 55 kt
Marco: 65 → 60 kt
Nana: 65 → 55 kt
Paulette: 90 → 95 kt
Sally: 90 → 95 kt
Teddy: 120 → 115 kt
Gamma: 60 → 75 kt
Delta: 125 → 115 kt
Epsilon: 100 → 105 kt
Zeta: 95 → 100 kt
Eta: 130 → 150 kt

No other changes to the remaining systems

Update: added a few more changes

I highly doubt Eta reached 150 kt. The satellite presentation did not change much after the last recon left, and the maximum FL winds observed by recon were only 137 kt and the maximum SFMR was only 135 kt. Although it is plausible some additional deepening occurred after the plane left, I don't think it got to 150 kt.
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#63 Postby CrazyC83 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:59 pm

Re: Marco, the 65 kt peak seems good to me. So does the 35 kt landfall intensity - although I don't think Marco was a TC at that point, but rather a remnant low.
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#64 Postby GSBHurricane » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:33 pm

CyclonicFury wrote:
Shell Mound wrote:
Shell Mound wrote:Gonzalo: 55 → 60 kt
TD Ten: 30 → 35 kt (upgrade to TS)
Josephine: 40 → 45 kt
Kyle: 45 → 55 kt
Marco: 65 → 60 kt
Nana: 65 → 55 kt
Paulette: 90 → 95 kt
Sally: 90 → 95 kt
Teddy: 120 → 115 kt
Gamma: 60 → 75 kt
Delta: 125 → 115 kt
Epsilon: 100 → 105 kt
Zeta: 95 → 100 kt
Eta: 130 → 150 kt

No other changes to the remaining systems

Update: added a few more changes

I highly doubt Eta reached 150 kt. The satellite presentation did not change much after the last recon left, and the maximum FL winds observed by recon were only 137 kt and the maximum SFMR was only 135 kt. Although it is plausible some additional deepening occurred after the plane left, I don't think it got to 150 kt.

I think 140 kts is possible for Laura though.
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#65 Postby ElectricStorm » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:37 pm

GSBHurricane wrote:
CyclonicFury wrote:
Shell Mound wrote:Update: added a few more changes

I highly doubt Eta reached 150 kt. The satellite presentation did not change much after the last recon left, and the maximum FL winds observed by recon were only 137 kt and the maximum SFMR was only 135 kt. Although it is plausible some additional deepening occurred after the plane left, I don't think it got to 150 kt.

I think 140 kts is possible for Laura though.

Personally I don't think Laura should get the upgrade to 140kts. Definitely should get 135kts though. It was close and at first I thought it should have been upgraded to 140kts but after looking at it again, while it was very close, I don't think it quite got there. I do think Eta should get 140kts though, but idk if NHC is willing to call it without any hard evidence from recon. No way it was 150kts though
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#66 Postby CrazyC83 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:34 am

My personal estimates:

Arthur (done) - 50 kt / 990 mb
Bertha (done) - 45 kt / 995 mb
Cristobal - 50 kt / 991 mb
Dolly - 40 kt / 1002 mb
Edouard - 45 kt / 1003 mb
Fay - 50 kt / 998 mb
Gonzalo - 60 kt / 995 mb
Hanna - 80 kt / 972 mb
Isaias - 80 kt / 985 mb
Josephine - 40 kt / 1004 mb
Kyle - 50 kt / 997 mb
Laura - 135 kt / 936 mb
Marco - 65 kt / 991 mb
Nana - 60 kt / 993 mb
Omar - 40 kt / 1001 mb
Paulette - 95 kt / 952 mb
Rene - 45 kt / 999 mb
Sally - 95 kt / 966 mb
Teddy - 120 kt / 945 mb
Vicky - 55 kt / 998 mb
Wilfred - 40 kt / 1005 mb
Alpha - 50 kt / 993 mb
Beta - 50 kt / 992 mb
Gamma - 65 kt / 980 mb
Delta - 120 kt / 952 mb
Epsilon - 100 kt / 950 mb
Zeta - 95 kt / 968 mb
Eta - 140 kt / 919 mb
Theta - 60 kt / 987 mb
Iota - 140 kt / 917 mb
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#67 Postby Shell Mound » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:02 am

tolakram wrote:
Shell Mound wrote:Gonzalo: 55 → 60 kt
TD Ten: 30 → 35 kt (upgrade to TS)
Josephine: 40 → 45 kt
Kyle: 45 → 55 kt
Marco: 65 → 60 kt
Nana: 65 → 55 kt
Paulette: 90 → 95 kt
Sally: 90 → 95 kt
Teddy: 120 → 115 kt
Gamma: 60 → 75 kt
Delta: 125 → 115 kt
Epsilon: 100 → 105 kt
Zeta: 95 → 100 kt
Eta: 130 → 150 kt

No other changes to the remaining systems

Update: added a few more changes

Did you provide any reasoning for those up or downgrades?

Gonzalo: system was very compact; microwave, satellite showed a formative eye, small CDO two days before first reconnaissance mission
TD Ten: NHC mentioned likelihood of brief TS status; compact circulation; ASCAT pass showed winds of 35 kt (30 kt strongest convection)
Josephine: ASCAT showed winds up to 40 kt while satellite estimates suggested 30 kt; system organised a bit further after that time
Kyle: ships reported 40-45 kt while satellites suggested lower winds; brief mid-level eye-like feature appeared early on
Marco: SFMR, sonde surface ~65 kt for several minutes at most; background-based P/W, satellite, sonde profile did not back H status
Nana: FL winds inconsistent with SFMR, sonde profile, and 10-m 1-min ob of 53 kt at Carrie Bow Cay, which experienced the RMW
Paulette: well-defined eye developed on 14 Sept, following last recon mission; Bermuda, sondes showed winds mixing well to surface
Sally: FL, NEXRAD supported borderline-MH winds
Teddy: satellite mostly supported winds lower than 120 kt; SFMR over deep water consistently lower than FL, even during deepening
Gamma: background-based P/W, observed MSLP, failure of recon to sample strongest quadrant(s) during deepening phase, satellite
Delta: blend of background-based P/W, observed MSLP, and recon data didn’t really support winds higher than ~115 kt in Caribbean
Epsilon: well-defined CDO, small, symmetrical inner core suggested slightly higher winds than officially indicated
Zeta: FL, NEXRAD supported low-end MH winds
Eta: satellite presentation at peak notably more impressive than Iota at its peak; recon missed strongest winds; compact inner core
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#68 Postby aspen » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:15 am

CrazyC83 wrote:My personal estimates:

Arthur (done) - 50 kt / 990 mb
Bertha (done) - 45 kt / 995 mb
Cristobal - 50 kt / 991 mb
Dolly - 40 kt / 1002 mb
Edouard - 45 kt / 1003 mb
Fay - 50 kt / 998 mb
Gonzalo - 60 kt / 995 mb
Hanna - 80 kt / 972 mb
Isaias - 80 kt / 985 mb
Josephine - 40 kt / 1004 mb
Kyle - 50 kt / 997 mb
Laura - 135 kt / 936 mb
Marco - 65 kt / 991 mb
Nana - 60 kt / 993 mb
Omar - 40 kt / 1001 mb
Paulette - 95 kt / 952 mb
Rene - 45 kt / 999 mb
Sally - 95 kt / 966 mb
Teddy - 120 kt / 945 mb
Vicky - 55 kt / 998 mb
Wilfred - 40 kt / 1005 mb
Alpha - 50 kt / 993 mb
Beta - 50 kt / 992 mb
Gamma - 65 kt / 980 mb
Delta - 120 kt / 952 mb
Epsilon - 100 kt / 950 mb
Zeta - 95 kt / 968 mb
Eta - 140 kt / 919 mb
Theta - 60 kt / 987 mb
Iota - 140 kt / 917 mb

Why did you go with 952 mbar for Paulette? That’s 13 mbar lower than its operational intensity.
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#69 Postby CrazyC83 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:57 am

aspen wrote:
CrazyC83 wrote:My personal estimates:

Arthur (done) - 50 kt / 990 mb
Bertha (done) - 45 kt / 995 mb
Cristobal - 50 kt / 991 mb
Dolly - 40 kt / 1002 mb
Edouard - 45 kt / 1003 mb
Fay - 50 kt / 998 mb
Gonzalo - 60 kt / 995 mb
Hanna - 80 kt / 972 mb
Isaias - 80 kt / 985 mb
Josephine - 40 kt / 1004 mb
Kyle - 50 kt / 997 mb
Laura - 135 kt / 936 mb
Marco - 65 kt / 991 mb
Nana - 60 kt / 993 mb
Omar - 40 kt / 1001 mb
Paulette - 95 kt / 952 mb
Rene - 45 kt / 999 mb
Sally - 95 kt / 966 mb
Teddy - 120 kt / 945 mb
Vicky - 55 kt / 998 mb
Wilfred - 40 kt / 1005 mb
Alpha - 50 kt / 993 mb
Beta - 50 kt / 992 mb
Gamma - 65 kt / 980 mb
Delta - 120 kt / 952 mb
Epsilon - 100 kt / 950 mb
Zeta - 95 kt / 968 mb
Eta - 140 kt / 919 mb
Theta - 60 kt / 987 mb
Iota - 140 kt / 917 mb

Why did you go with 952 mbar for Paulette? That’s 13 mbar lower than its operational intensity.


It was about 968 with 80 kt winds in Bermuda and I figure the relationship got even worse as it got to higher latitudes - plus the storm grew quite a bit.
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#70 Postby ColdMiser123 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:30 pm

Some thoughts about post-season changes this year:

1) Nana

I think there is a case to be made that this never reached hurricane intensity, since the hurricane force SFMRs were disjointed from the FL wind that supported hurricane intensity, however there was a deep burst of convection just before landfall and given the small circulation it could have easily spun up some more.

2) Laura

I like the NHC operational intensity of 130 kt for Laura. If there was an option to assign 133 kt as an intensity, that's probably what I would have gone with. Peak FL wind of 148 kt supported 133 kt at the surface, alongside 133 kt unflagged SFMR. While there was a 137 kt SFMR, this was flagged, so it may be worth checking again.

3) Gamma

I think this probably reached minimum hurricane intensity, as there was a significant pressure drop at landfall compared to what recon had observed a few hours earlier, but post-season analysis should give more conclusive answers on this.

4) Sally

This is where I think there could be a more significant discrepancy compared to the operational intensity, depending on how accurate the shallow water SFMR data is ruled in the TCR. Peak FL wind of 110 kt supports 99 kt at the surface, Category 3. There is some uncertainty mentioned in the NHC discussion as to whether these winds actually made it to the surface, from the 4 am CDT 9/16 discussion:

The reconnaissance aircraft has recently measured peak 700-mb
flight-level winds of 110 kt, but those winds may not be making it
down to the surface based on earlier buoy wind reports underneath
the eyewall.


However, there is evidence that these winds were making it down to the surface, from a dropsonde earlier:

Image

These are instantaneous winds, so the 112 kt at the surface is not evidence by itself that this was a Category 3. However, what is most important, is that this dropsonde is evidence that winds aloft were successfully mixing down to the surface. That is the only way you get these kinds of tremendous gusts to be observed close to the surface. The standard conversion for the lowest 150 meter wind average in dropsondes is around ~0.85, which would support 96 kt, right at the border between a 95 kt Category 2, and a 96 kt Category 3. A more detailed radar analysis might be useful like it was with Michael, as there was some radar data suggesting winds were higher than 90 kt as well. I think post-analysis will be a close call between a high-end Category 2 (95 kt) or a low-end Category 3 (96-99 kt).

5) Zeta

FL winds were around 119 kt, which typically would support 107 kt at the surface, however, as Crazy and I discussed, this conversion may be lower, due to the interaction with an upper level trough. In Hurricane Wilma's TCR, the NHC used a conversion of 0.8 from FL wind to surface wind, since they noted shear was analyzed at around 25 kt, which would artificially inflate FL wind, and should reduce this conversion to surface wind as a result.

Shear for Zeta in this same atmospheric layer on the GFS was forecast to be around 10-15 kt, so a higher conversion than 0.8, but a lower conversion than 0.9 might seem reasonable. This is likely something the NHC will be taking a look at in the TCR, as well as the accuracy of the shallow water SFMR measurements, like with Sally. A compromise estimate of 0.85 in this case still gives 101 kt at the surface. Like with Sally, there was radar evidence that this had stronger wind than was operationally analyzed, since 123 kt was analyzed on radar just above ~3000 meters, which is close to 700 mb. This 0.85 conversion supports 104 kt at the surface. Dropsonde data also showed that winds were mixing effectively close to the surface, which supports that mid-level wind was mixing down, at least in gusts.

Damage was also quite extensive with Zeta, and there were some unofficial gusts well into Category 4 range. A detailed analysis should give us a better idea as to how accurate these surface observations were. I think the NHC TCR will find that the balance of evidence suggests this was a 100 kt Category 3.

6) Eta

This is tough, since recon was gone during the likely peak, and recon showed pressure still dropping significantly before it left. It is likely that we didn't observe the true peak, and while it was likely higher than 130 kt, it's tough to say if it made it to Category 5.

7) Iota

This gave one of the most significant FL wind to SFMR discrepancies that I've personally seen during the final pass. The north eyewall had a peak SFMR of 94 kt, while FL wind peaked 143 kt. It is interesting that the NHC appears to have discounted these low SFMR values on the final pass, since there is no mention of them in the final discussion before landfall. Like with Zeta and Sally, this will be interesting to see if these low SFMR values are believable since they were observed in shallow water.

That took a while to write up! Currently have MATLAB code that takes a while to run in the background, so I figured it would be a good time to write some thoughts down. :D
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#71 Postby supercane4867 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:18 pm

I highly agree with Crazy that Eta and Iota had about the same strengthen at their peaks. The only difference between the two is that the latter was lucky enough to get non-stop 6 hour interval recon coverage. While Eta's satellite presentation never persisted long enough to reach CAT5 threshold on dvorak, it really stands out historically even in the group of 135kt systems that were controversially denied of CAT5 rating. A 140kt estimate for Eta is very reasonable based on pressure-wind relationship and it's still within the margin of error of AMSU analysis.
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#72 Postby kevin » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:25 pm

supercane4867 wrote:I highly agree with Crazy that Eta and Iota had about the same strengthen at their peaks. The only difference between the two is that the latter was lucky enough to get non-stop 6 hour interval recon coverage. While Eta's satellite presentation never persisted long enough to reach CAT5 threshold on dvorak, it really stands out historically even in the group of 135kt systems that were controversially denied of CAT5 rating. A 140kt estimate for Eta is very reasonable based on pressure-wind relationship and it's still within the margin of error of AMSU analysis.


Maybe I'm mistaken but Eta did reach the cat 5 threshold on ADT right? It even had a higher ADT peak then Iota and went to 916.5mb/149kt whereas Iota's ADT peak was 921.5mb/140kt. Or is the dvorak something else than the advanced dvorak technique? Here's the peak data below from http://tropic.ssec.wisc.edu/real-time/adt/29L-list.txt:

2020NOV03 055017 7.1 921.2 143.0 7.1 7.4 7.6 1.3T/6hr OFF OFF OFF OFF -6.30 -78.06 EYE 7 IR 20.0 14.01 82.84 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 062017 7.2 919.3 146.0 7.2 7.5 7.6 1.3T/6hr OFF OFF OFF OFF -6.06 -77.82 EYE 6 IR 20.0 13.97 82.90 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 065017 7.3 916.5 149.0 7.3 7.4 7.4 NO LIMIT OFF OFF OFF OFF -12.89 -77.25 EYE 8 IR 20.0 13.91 82.94 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 072017 7.3 916.5 149.0 7.2 7.1 7.1 NO LIMIT ON OFF OFF OFF -22.18 -76.57 EYE 6 IR 20.0 13.93 82.94 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 075017 7.3 916.5 149.0 7.2 6.9 6.9 NO LIMIT ON OFF OFF OFF -26.20 -75.89 EYE 6 IR 20.0 13.89 82.98 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 082017 7.3 916.5 149.0 7.2 7.0 7.0 NO LIMIT ON OFF OFF OFF -34.70 -76.44 EYE -99 IR 20.0 13.83 83.01 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 085017 7.3 916.5 149.0 7.1 6.6 6.6 NO LIMIT ON OFF OFF OFF -52.08 -75.87 EYE -99 IR 20.0 13.81 83.09 FCST GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 092017 7.3 916.5 149.0 7.0 6.9 6.9 NO LIMIT ON OFF OFF OFF -23.47 -75.52 EYE/P -99 IR 20.0 13.81 83.04 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 095017 7.3 916.5 149.0 6.9 6.9 6.9 NO LIMIT ON FLG OFF OFF -22.48 -75.68 EYE/P -99 IR 20.0 13.80 83.05 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 102017 7.3 916.5 149.0 6.9 6.9 6.9 NO LIMIT ON FLG OFF OFF -24.80 -75.66 EYE/P -99 IR 20.0 13.76 83.18 FCST GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 105017 7.3 916.5 149.0 6.8 6.8 6.8 NO LIMIT ON FLG OFF OFF -25.04 -74.86 EYE/P -99 IR 20.0 13.75 83.21 FCST GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 112017 7.3 916.5 149.0 6.7 6.4 5.8 0.5T/hour ON FLG OFF OFF -65.22 -75.18 EMBC N/A 54.4 13.84 82.99 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 115017 7.3 916.5 149.0 6.7 6.5 6.5 NO LIMIT ON FLG OFF OFF -52.48 -74.90 EYE -99 IR 54.4 13.84 83.01 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 122017 7.3 916.6 149.0 6.7 6.7 6.7 NO LIMIT ON FLG OFF OFF -26.13 -74.26 EYE/P -99 IR 54.4 13.74 83.29 FCST GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 125017 7.3 916.6 149.0 6.6 6.6 5.9 0.7T/6hr ON FLG OFF OFF -65.11 -74.10 EMBC N/A 54.4 13.74 83.32 FCST GOES16 18.6
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#73 Postby aspen » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:48 pm

Here are post-season changes that I think are possible for Eta and Iota. Keep in mind that I’m not a pro met and these are just my opinions based on the observed data for both storms (direct recon data, trends determined by recon, IR and radar appearances, etc).

ETA
—Genesis moved to be 6-12 hours earlier
—Slower intensification midday while the eye was struggling to clear out, ERI resuming around 21-22z Nov2
—Winds raised to 135 kt for 03z, corresponding with peak SFMR of ~135 kt in the S quadrant
—Peak winds raised to 140-145 kt at 06z, pressure lowered to 913-917 mbar; this takes into account the 155 kt instantaneous wind in the S quad, the 5 mb/hr deepening rate observed between the two passes, and the unsampled peak winds in the NW quad (which was the strongest with the very similar Hurricane Iota)
—Downgraded to a remnant low during part of its journey over CA
—Return to hurricane status is moved to be earlier than when it was operationally assessed

IOTA
—Initial intensification into a Category 1 is much slower; intensity at 12z and 15z Nov15 is lowered to 65-70 kt
—Minimum pressure slightly lowered by 1-3 mbar
—Winds might be worth being raised to 145 kt, due to a 143 kt SFMR reading and ~145 kt FL in the NW quadrant at 12z Nov16
—Landfall intensity lowered to 130 kt, maybe as low as 125 kt; exceptionally low SFMR readings will have to be discounted due to shoaling effects and the low pressure of 920 mbar
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#74 Postby supercane4867 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:52 pm

kevin wrote:
supercane4867 wrote:I highly agree with Crazy that Eta and Iota had about the same strengthen at their peaks. The only difference between the two is that the latter was lucky enough to get non-stop 6 hour interval recon coverage. While Eta's satellite presentation never persisted long enough to reach CAT5 threshold on dvorak, it really stands out historically even in the group of 135kt systems that were controversially denied of CAT5 rating. A 140kt estimate for Eta is very reasonable based on pressure-wind relationship and it's still within the margin of error of AMSU analysis.


Maybe I'm mistaken but Eta did reach the cat 5 threshold on ADT right? It even had a higher ADT peak then Iota and went to 916.5mb/149kt whereas Iota's ADT peak was 921.5mb/140kt. Or is the dvorak something else than the advanced dvorak technique? Here's the peak data below from http://tropic.ssec.wisc.edu/real-time/adt/29L-list.txt:

2020NOV03 055017 7.1 921.2 143.0 7.1 7.4 7.6 1.3T/6hr OFF OFF OFF OFF -6.30 -78.06 EYE 7 IR 20.0 14.01 82.84 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 062017 7.2 919.3 146.0 7.2 7.5 7.6 1.3T/6hr OFF OFF OFF OFF -6.06 -77.82 EYE 6 IR 20.0 13.97 82.90 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 065017 7.3 916.5 149.0 7.3 7.4 7.4 NO LIMIT OFF OFF OFF OFF -12.89 -77.25 EYE 8 IR 20.0 13.91 82.94 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 072017 7.3 916.5 149.0 7.2 7.1 7.1 NO LIMIT ON OFF OFF OFF -22.18 -76.57 EYE 6 IR 20.0 13.93 82.94 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 075017 7.3 916.5 149.0 7.2 6.9 6.9 NO LIMIT ON OFF OFF OFF -26.20 -75.89 EYE 6 IR 20.0 13.89 82.98 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 082017 7.3 916.5 149.0 7.2 7.0 7.0 NO LIMIT ON OFF OFF OFF -34.70 -76.44 EYE -99 IR 20.0 13.83 83.01 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 085017 7.3 916.5 149.0 7.1 6.6 6.6 NO LIMIT ON OFF OFF OFF -52.08 -75.87 EYE -99 IR 20.0 13.81 83.09 FCST GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 092017 7.3 916.5 149.0 7.0 6.9 6.9 NO LIMIT ON OFF OFF OFF -23.47 -75.52 EYE/P -99 IR 20.0 13.81 83.04 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 095017 7.3 916.5 149.0 6.9 6.9 6.9 NO LIMIT ON FLG OFF OFF -22.48 -75.68 EYE/P -99 IR 20.0 13.80 83.05 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 102017 7.3 916.5 149.0 6.9 6.9 6.9 NO LIMIT ON FLG OFF OFF -24.80 -75.66 EYE/P -99 IR 20.0 13.76 83.18 FCST GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 105017 7.3 916.5 149.0 6.8 6.8 6.8 NO LIMIT ON FLG OFF OFF -25.04 -74.86 EYE/P -99 IR 20.0 13.75 83.21 FCST GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 112017 7.3 916.5 149.0 6.7 6.4 5.8 0.5T/hour ON FLG OFF OFF -65.22 -75.18 EMBC N/A 54.4 13.84 82.99 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 115017 7.3 916.5 149.0 6.7 6.5 6.5 NO LIMIT ON FLG OFF OFF -52.48 -74.90 EYE -99 IR 54.4 13.84 83.01 ARCHER GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 122017 7.3 916.6 149.0 6.7 6.7 6.7 NO LIMIT ON FLG OFF OFF -26.13 -74.26 EYE/P -99 IR 54.4 13.74 83.29 FCST GOES16 18.6
2020NOV03 125017 7.3 916.6 149.0 6.6 6.6 5.9 0.7T/6hr ON FLG OFF OFF -65.11 -74.10 EMBC N/A 54.4 13.74 83.32 FCST GOES16 18.6

Sorry about the lack of clarification but I was referring to the Dvorak as the old-fashioned subjective dvorak(bulletins from SAB and TAFB), not ADT. I think that ADT without any seasonal adjustment is skewed too heavily toward colder CDO temp in the Caribbean during November.
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#75 Postby CrazyC83 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:56 pm

My estimate for Iota's landfall intensity is 120 kt personally. That is based on several things:

* Approaching landfall, the highest SFMR was 116 kt and FL winds 143 kt (which balances to 129 kt). Part of the storm was on land then so sampling may have been an issue. Those data suggest that, at 00Z, the intensity was probably 125 or 130 kt.

* Once the plane left, the satellite signature degraded some. That makes weakening believable (although not a lot, based on unofficial reports). That is where 120 kt is analyzed. My pressure estimate at landfall is 926 mb.

With Eta, I think 120 kt should be left as the landfall intensity for that storm too, BUT, I believe it came in a last minute re-strengthening and that it dropped from 140 kt to 110 kt in 12 hours during the ERC only to come back up in the last few hours.
Last edited by CrazyC83 on Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#76 Postby tolakram » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:57 pm

I think Eta gets an upgrades based on recon from Iota combined with sat estimates of Eta. It seems very likely to me, an amateur, that Eta experienced the same kind of strengthening followed by weakening that Iota did. The only difference being recon was not in Eta during this peak.
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#77 Postby ElectricStorm » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:24 pm

tolakram wrote:I think Eta gets an upgrades based on recon from Iota combined with sat estimates of Eta. It seems very likely to me, an amateur, that Eta experienced the same kind of strengthening followed by weakening that Iota did. The only difference being recon was not in Eta during this peak.

Yeah I agree. I personally consider Eta and Iota as equals at peak. Meteorologically speaking, I hope Eta gets the upgrade as both were very similar.
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#78 Postby CyclonicFury » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:06 pm

Here's what I'm thinking.

Dolly 40 > 45 kt. Satellite presentation improved after ASCAT showed 35-40 kt winds that morning, though only for a brief time.
Isaias 75 > 80 kt. This one I am unsure about. It seems NHC completely disregarded the high FL winds as being due to the sting jet, but I could see a slight upgrade.
Laura 130 > 135 kt. This one will come down to whether NHC thinks the 137 kt SFMR was reliable.
Sally 90 > 95 kt. A blend of 700mb flight-level and SFMR data supports ~94.5 kt which supports a 95 kt intensity.
Gamma 60 > 65 kt. Recon missed the peak intensity, and the pressure was dropping quickly before landfall with an eye like feature appearing on satellite.
Delta 125 > 120 kt. Recon data never supported a 125 kt intensity, and this upgrade was likely made based on the assumption that continued deepening occurred which was likely not the case since recon found the pressure had leveled off right before it left on the afternoon of October 6.
Zeta 95 > 100 kt. The flight-level winds for Zeta supported ~107 kt, and there were apparently reports of gusts over 115 kt.
Eta 130 > 135 kt. I do not think Eta will get upgraded to Category 5 but a slight boost seems plausible since recon likely missed peak.

I think Nana will most likely stay a minimal hurricane. If NHC thought the data did not support hurricane strength, they likely would not have upgraded it to a hurricane in the first place.
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#79 Postby aspen » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:03 pm

I’d say there’s a non-zero chance of Eta’s pressure being lowered in post-season analysis. If the NHC were to extrapolate the deepening rate observed by recon for 1-2 more hours, then Eta bottomed out in the range of 913-917 mbar, and a pressure that low combined with recon data from Iota — which had a similar but slightly larger structure with the strongest winds in the NW quad — could help justify a Cat 5 upgrade.

It’s absolutely insane that there were TWO >130 kt Cat 4/5 hurricanes in the first half of NOVEMBER, of all months.
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Re: 2020 Atlantic Post-Season Changes

#80 Postby ncforecaster89 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:35 pm

I was just reading through the "StEER" post-storm damage assessments on both Sally and Zeta. Although the general sentiment (from most on here) appear to believe Zeta was likely a Cat 3 while Sally was a 95 kt Cat 2...these assessments further support my own personal opinion that Zeta was no more intense than Sally, at their respective landfalls.

I'll add that Sally was the most intense Category-two hurricane I've personally ever experienced and produced wind gusts that were comparable to many of the Cat 3 eyewalls I've endured. Moreover, the winds in Sally were substantially stronger than what I encountered inside Zeta's eyewall. That said, it's important to note that I was in the NE portion of Zeta's eyewall thirty minutes after it had crossed the coastline and not in Green Meadows, for example...although it hadn't really weakened noticeably by that point. Of course, my personal experience is not nearly as relevant as the actual in-situ data and professional damage surveys conducted after the storms.

Sally:
https://www.designsafe-ci.org/data/brow ... d/PRJ-2914

Zeta:
https://www.designsafe-ci.org/data/brow ... d/PRJ-2952

P.S. As ColdMiser and I were suggesting previously, especially after Iota, I'm not too confident in the accuracy of the respective SFMR readings taken in either of these hurricanes given the shallow near-shore waters.
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