2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#861 Postby WeatherEmperor » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:58 pm

RL3AO wrote:If you try hard enough, you can find correlations to support whatever type of season you'd like. ENSO is neutral and the atmospheric pattern is still in a very La Nina like state. The big picture still supports an active season in the Atlantic.


You beat me to it. In addition to this, even Dr. K that was mentioned above increased his seasonal forecast to a more active Atlantic from before. Just about all the big agencies are forecasting an active Atlantic season.

Bottom line is no matter that the EPAC sst anomalies show or ONI this and MEI this...I do not see the Atlantic atmosphere behaving in a manner that in any way shape or form resembles an El Nino. I have reviewed satellite loops, pressure data, shear maps, etc and I do not see El Nino behavior in the ATL. Can/will that change in the future?? Maybe. We are about to find out in the coming weeks.


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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#862 Postby TheStormExpert » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:24 pm

WeatherEmperor wrote:https://twitter.com/MJVentrice/status/888801831186558976


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Notice how people start mentioning 2013 in the comments. I'm not as sold on a season cancel as they are but environmental conditions throughout the Atlantic better start changing to favorable real quick or it'll be too late!
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#863 Postby Dylan » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:26 pm

All of this talk of 2017 being a repeat of 2013 is absolutely ridiculous. Even though 2013 started off with what appeared to be a potent +AMO signature in the Atlantic, by the time late July rolled around, the MDR had cooled (relative to SSTA's) significantly, with the warmest SSTA's focused in the sub-tropics. The SSTA pattern is much different this year, with the MDR remaining very warm, and that could mean big trouble during the critical ASO period.

July 2013
Image

July 2017
Image
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#864 Postby RL3AO » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:31 pm

Dylan wrote:All of this talk of 2017 being a repeat of 2013 is absolutely ridiculous. Even though 2013 started off with what appeared to be a potent +AMO signature in the Atlantic, by the time late July rolled around, the MDR had cooled (relative to SSTA's) significantly, with the warmest SSTA's focused in the sub-tropics. The SSTA pattern is much different this year, with the MDR remaining very warm, and that could mean big trouble during the critical ASO period.
]


If there aren't hurricanes in July, the season is a bust. It happens every year. Just do like I and laugh at it.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#865 Postby WeatherEmperor » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:40 pm

TheStormExpert wrote:
WeatherEmperor wrote:https://twitter.com/MJVentrice/status/888801831186558976


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Notice how people start mentioning 2013 in the comments. I'm not as sold on a season cancel as they are but environmental conditions throughout the Atlantic better start changing to favorable real quick or it'll be too late!


You make a very good point about 2013. I agree with you as I do not see any evidence that 2017 will be a repeat of 2013.


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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#866 Postby abajan » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:04 pm

Dylan wrote:All of this talk of 2017 being a repeat of 2013 is absolutely ridiculous. Even though 2013 started off with what appeared to be a potent +AMO signature in the Atlantic, by the time late July rolled around, the MDR had cooled (relative to SSTA's) significantly, with the warmest SSTA's focused in the sub-tropics. The SSTA pattern is much different this year, with the MDR remaining very warm, and that could mean big trouble during the critical ASO period.

July 2013
http://www.ospo.noaa.gov/data/sst/anoma ... 2.2013.gif

July 2017
http://www.ospo.noaa.gov/data/sst/anoma ... 0.2017.gif

Absolutely! Mark Sudduth clearly points that out in this video, starting at 3:27.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#867 Postby TheStormExpert » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:41 pm

:uarrow: Actually I was saying that I do see some signs of a potential similar in ways repeat of 2013 if conditions don't improve very soon.

Right now you have a good bit of SAL which should already be on the decrease according to climatology and I believe there is yet another strong outbreak on it's way for Monday. Now I am aware that this season is featuring the least amount of SAL in any season since 2005 I believe but what about 2008 which was able to produce a Cape Verde major hurricane in July?

Wind Shear is currently 50/50 with your areas of high and low shear but we all know that can go back up or down in a blink of an eye.

Mid-level dry air is also present to the north and south (especially) of the ITCZ over Africa and the tropical Atlantic which if you get a large enough system it will get ingested into it. This was a HUGE factor into why 2013 failed to achieve it's forecasted potential.

All in all this season could go anywhere from 1)A well below average season like 2014 in terms of numbers to B)A season like 2013 which produced about normal numbers but featured crappy quality storms. Then there is C)A season like last which struggled some until after the peak to produce really anything of significance and then bam we had Matthew, Nicole, and Otto which were 3 of our 4 majors in a row but at the end it had above average numbers. Then we have D)2010, 2011, or 2012 which were all low-end hyperactive seasons each featuring 19 named storms with 2010 being the best in terms of quality and 2012 being the worst (excluding Sandy).

Right now I'm starting to think an option like B is possible which is a season a lot like 2013 which features about average numbers but weak and short-lived storms.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#868 Postby TheStormExpert » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:45 pm

Dylan wrote:All of this talk of 2017 being a repeat of 2013 is absolutely ridiculous. Even though 2013 started off with what appeared to be a potent +AMO signature in the Atlantic, by the time late July rolled around, the MDR had cooled (relative to SSTA's) significantly, with the warmest SSTA's focused in the sub-tropics. The SSTA pattern is much different this year, with the MDR remaining very warm, and that could mean big trouble during the critical ASO period.

July 2013
http://www.ospo.noaa.gov/data/sst/anoma ... 2.2013.gif

July 2017
http://www.ospo.noaa.gov/data/sst/anoma ... 0.2017.gif

What about that strip of warm SST's off the U.S. East Coast which has pretty much the exact same intensity of the above average warmth of the SST's in the Tropical Atlantic, wouldn't that easily rob the Tropical Atlantic of it's energy just like some experts have mentioned could happen?
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#869 Postby AutoPenalti » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:02 pm

Levi did mention something about that semi-permanent feature off the east coast in one of his outlook videos, would have to rewatch again.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#870 Postby CyclonicFury » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:02 pm

The chances of a 2013 repeat are very small by climatology. 2013 was the only Atlantic hurricane season in the satellite era to lack a major hurricane that was not an El Niño year. 2013 was also only the second Atlantic season of the satellite era to lack a hurricane stronger than category one. There's a chance the season may not end up as active as predicted but I do think at least one storm will find favorable enough conditions to strengthen into a major hurricane. Compared to 2013, the MDR is warmer this year and the subtropics are cooler. The eastern Atlantic is also warmer than in 2013 along with the far North Atlantic. Wind shear is at near or slightly below average levels in the tropics as well. Instability in the MDR is below average but as 2011, 2012 and 2016 showed you can still have an active season with this.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#871 Postby Dylan » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:03 pm

TheStormExpert wrote:
Dylan wrote:All of this talk of 2017 being a repeat of 2013 is absolutely ridiculous. Even though 2013 started off with what appeared to be a potent +AMO signature in the Atlantic, by the time late July rolled around, the MDR had cooled (relative to SSTA's) significantly, with the warmest SSTA's focused in the sub-tropics. The SSTA pattern is much different this year, with the MDR remaining very warm, and that could mean big trouble during the critical ASO period.

July 2013
http://www.ospo.noaa.gov/data/sst/anoma ... 2.2013.gif

July 2017
http://www.ospo.noaa.gov/data/sst/anoma ... 0.2017.gif

What about that strip of warm SST's off the U.S. East Coast which has pretty much the exact same intensity of the above average warmth of the SST's in the Tropical Atlantic, wouldn't that easily rob the Tropical Atlantic of it's energy just like some experts have mentioned could happen?


Let me tell you something. If you are looking for absolutes & certainties, Meteorology & Climatology are not professions that you want to be in.

The "little strip" of anomalously warm SSTA's off the Eastern Seaboard does not matter that much in the grand scheme of things. I know you've probably read or watched Levi Cowan or Joe Bastardi's videos, because they have mentioned that feature several times, and you're just regurgitating that information.

Honestly, the east coast warmth meant more back in May when the Atlantic Basin SSTA profile somewhat resembled 2013. But it means a lot less now. Back in 2013 it was a big deal because the MDR cooled off significantly! But this year the MDR has maintained itself, and thus, it is a much more dominant feature. There is a reason why Hurricane Forecasters correlate past Hurricane Seasons with MDR warmth and not waters of off the Eastern Seaboard.

There are numerous other factors that suggest this season will be active too, not just the Atlantic Basin SSTA profile. But with a potent +AMO signature, that is the biggest red flag to me as a forecaster, that suggests trouble during the ASO a period.
Last edited by Dylan on Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#872 Postby abajan » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:21 pm

Dylan wrote:
TheStormExpert wrote:
Dylan wrote:All of this talk of 2017 being a repeat of 2013 is absolutely ridiculous. Even though 2013 started off with what appeared to be a potent +AMO signature in the Atlantic, by the time late July rolled around, the MDR had cooled (relative to SSTA's) significantly, with the warmest SSTA's focused in the sub-tropics. The SSTA pattern is much different this year, with the MDR remaining very warm, and that could mean big trouble during the critical ASO period.

July 2013
http://www.ospo.noaa.gov/data/sst/anoma ... 2.2013.gif

July 2017
http://www.ospo.noaa.gov/data/sst/anoma ... 0.2017.gif

What about that strip of warm SST's off the U.S. East Coast which has pretty much the exact same intensity of the above average warmth of the SST's in the Tropical Atlantic, wouldn't that easily rob the Tropical Atlantic of it's energy just like some experts have mentioned could happen?


... Honestly, the east coast warmth meant more back in May when the Atlantic Basin SSTA profile somewhat resembled 2013. But it means a lot less now. Back in 2013 it was a big deal because the MDR cooled off significantly! But this year the MDR has maintained itself, and thus, it is a much more dominant feature. There isn't a reason why Hurricane Forecasters correlate past Hurricane Seasons with MDR warmth and not waters of off the Eastern Seaboard. ...

You meant to state that there is a reason. Right?
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#873 Postby stormlover2013 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:25 pm

Some people are saying we won't see no more than 10 storms because July is quiet, and I feel they are jumping the gun way to quick!! what are y'all thoughts? Do y'all think August and sept will be pretty active?
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#874 Postby Dylan » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:33 pm

^ It was a typo!

Anyway, I don't mean to come off as rude. But I have to keep it real. If you want to be a real Meteorologist, you have to be able to develop your own assessment of the data first, before looking at what others say.

The poster mentioned some of the unfavorable conditions that are occurring in the Atlantic Basin today. These features can be more attributed to the -Kelvin Wave & Climatological factors. That will change next month when Climatology says that the Atlantic becomes more favorable. To add insult to injury, you will also have +MJO & a +KW moving in. This combined with the already anomalously favorable conditions in the Atlantic will likely lead to our first Red Meat TC's this season.

Also, it's July 22nd! It's supposed to be quiet right now. It's amazing how 12 years after the great 2005 hurricane season people are still spoiled from it. Having 2 Major Hurricanes in July should not be the standard! It's an EXTREME outlier!
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#875 Postby NDG » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:39 pm

TheStormExpert wrote:
Dylan wrote:All of this talk of 2017 being a repeat of 2013 is absolutely ridiculous. Even though 2013 started off with what appeared to be a potent +AMO signature in the Atlantic, by the time late July rolled around, the MDR had cooled (relative to SSTA's) significantly, with the warmest SSTA's focused in the sub-tropics. The SSTA pattern is much different this year, with the MDR remaining very warm, and that could mean big trouble during the critical ASO period.

July 2013
http://www.ospo.noaa.gov/data/sst/anoma ... 2.2013.gif

July 2017
http://www.ospo.noaa.gov/data/sst/anoma ... 0.2017.gif

What about that strip of warm SST's off the U.S. East Coast which has pretty much the exact same intensity of the above average warmth of the SST's in the Tropical Atlantic, wouldn't that easily rob the Tropical Atlantic of it's energy just like some experts have mentioned could happen?


Only if the tropical Atlantic is cooler and pressures are higher than off the US East coast.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#876 Postby abajan » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:41 pm

stormlover2013 wrote:Some people are saying we won't see no more than 10 storms because July is quiet, and I feel they are jumping the gun way to quick!! what are y'all thoughts? Do y'all think August and sept will be pretty active?

They're definitely jumping the gun. This July has actually been way more active than normal! The tendency for low latitude systems to stay on a westward track is also disconcerting for us in the Lesser Antilles.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#877 Postby Hurricaneman » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:44 pm

abajan wrote:
stormlover2013 wrote:Some people are saying we won't see no more than 10 storms because July is quiet, and I feel they are jumping the gun way to quick!! what are y'all thoughts? Do y'all think August and sept will be pretty active?

They're definitely jumping the gun. This July has actually been way more active than normal! The tendency for low latitude systems to stay on a westward track is also disconcerting for us in the Lesser Antilles.

True, and the models are lowering pressures in the MDR especially the Euro the first of next month so there is most likely going to be a nasty August through October
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#878 Postby NDG » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:05 pm

I just wished people will stop comparing conditions to 2013, that was as anomalously on one side of the spectrum as to the other side of the spectrum which was 2005.
The atmosphere over the tropical Atlantic this season so far is more moist than it was during 2013.

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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#879 Postby Dylan » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:14 pm

NDG wrote:I just wished people will stop comparing conditions to 2013, that was as anomalously on one side of the spectrum as to the other side of the spectrum which was 2005.
The atmosphere over the tropical Atlantic this season so far is more moist than it was during 2013.



Thank you for posting, NDG.

I completely agree. 2017 isn't even close to 2013. I think we're on the verge of seeing a very active Cape Verde Hurricane Season with long trackers coming from low latitudes, which is very dangerous. A few storms that come to mind that I think we're at increased risk of seeing this year based on the pattern we're seeing are Fredric, Georges, and Ivan.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#880 Postby Hammy » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:42 pm

TheStormExpert wrote::uarrow: Actually I was saying that I do see some signs of a potential similar in ways repeat of 2013 if conditions don't improve very soon.

Right now you have a good bit of SAL which should already be on the decrease according to climatology and I believe there is yet another strong outbreak on it's way for Monday. Now I am aware that this season is featuring the least amount of SAL in any season since 2005 I believe but what about 2008 which was able to produce a Cape Verde major hurricane in July?

Wind Shear is currently 50/50 with your areas of high and low shear but we all know that can go back up or down in a blink of an eye.

Mid-level dry air is also present to the north and south (especially) of the ITCZ over Africa and the tropical Atlantic which if you get a large enough system it will get ingested into it. This was a HUGE factor into why 2013 failed to achieve it's forecasted potential.

All in all this season could go anywhere from 1)A well below average season like 2014 in terms of numbers to B)A season like 2013 which produced about normal numbers but featured crappy quality storms. Then there is C)A season like last which struggled some until after the peak to produce really anything of significance and then bam we had Matthew, Nicole, and Otto which were 3 of our 4 majors in a row but at the end it had above average numbers. Then we have D)2010, 2011, or 2012 which were all low-end hyperactive seasons each featuring 19 named storms with 2010 being the best in terms of quality and 2012 being the worst (excluding Sandy).

Right now I'm starting to think an option like B is possible which is a season a lot like 2013 which features about average numbers but weak and short-lived storms.


All of the above conditions are normal--the African dust doesn't really start declining until about the second week of August--and concerning 2008 Bertha actually struggled quite a bit until it exited the MDR (and that's a bad year to use as an example as well given we've had maybe 5-6 majors in July). Shear has been mostly below normal, with only a few spikes here and there. Dry air is also about where it should be at this point.

I need to stress again that 2013 had global problems with the ocean circulation, that affected global activity during most of summer--and we were already seeing signs of this (major cold weather outbreaks in the east, significant above normal rainfall, and what effectively amounts to a drought in the tropical Atlantic, as well as a linear shear pattern.)

I would say the chances of a 2013 repeat are maybe around 5% if not lower--it had unique conditions (similar to 2005) which can't really be used as a valid comparison to any other year.

And I'll point out more often than not, active seasons have late starts:

1998: there were literally no storms, not even a single depression, until July 27, and then nothing again until August 18. One storm totaling six days of activity in the first 80 days of the season. Final numbers 14/10/3 and 182 ACE.
1999: One storm in June (Arlene), lasting six days; and then nothing for the next two months--July and the first three weeks of activity were filled with nothing but SAL outbreaks. Final numbers 12/8/5 and 177 ACE.
2000: no storms at all (and only two June depressions) until August 4, and again major SAL outbreaks in July. Final numbers 15/8/4 and 116 ACE.
2001: Allison in June, then no storms again until August 2, and only three total storms in August--there were no hurricanes until Sep 10. Final numbers 15/9/4 and 106 ACE.
2004: nothing (not even a depression) until July 31, and only a few weak mid-latitude invests. Final numbers 15/8/6 and 225 ACE (though 2004 is as much an anomaly as 2005.)
2007: three very short-lived storms, widely spread apart--one in May, June, and the end of July, and no hurricanes until the third week of August. Final numbers 15/6/2 (including two Cat 5's) though with 72 ACE (low end of average)
2010: Despite having Alex in June (thanks to significantly lower base pressure than normal) there were only two more short-lived storms prior to August 20. Final numbers 19/12/5 and 165 ACE.
2011: Quantity over quality start to the season, four storms formed before Aug 1 and no hurricanes prior to the fourth week of August. Final numbers 19/7/4 and 163 ACE.
2012: Early start in May/June with mid-latitude activity, followed by absolutely nothing until the start of August. Final numbers 19/10/2 and 133 ACE.
2016: Exluding Alex (as it was in January, well before the season) there were three short-lived storms between late May and mid-June, and like 2012 absolutely nothing until the beginning of August. Final numbers 15/7/4 and 141 ACE.

Going back to 1995, only five seasons-1995, 1996, 2003, 2005, and 2008 had significant early-season activity, meaning 67% of seasons saw little to no early season or July activity.
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