2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1381 Postby Hammy » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:47 pm

tolakram wrote:Go to Talking Tropics, go back a page, then look at the URL which will look like this:

http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewforum.php?f=31&start=50

Change the start number ... 2005 is around 13000. Please do NOT reply to any of those old posts.

On a serious note ... as far as activity is concerned and in my opinion. I know many of you don't mean it, or maybe some do , but complaining about a boring season when we have active storms is kind of a giveaway that 'not boring' means someone is going to get hit by a storm. We play this little dance with the season cancel posts every year, and sometimes the season is a dud, but sometimes it's the track of the storms that bores people. Think before you post, and if you're posting because your mad a storm that was modeled to hit the US is not happening then take a breather. Hurricane season is not a game.

I have fun tracking hurricanes, I have fun watching them develop, especially with the new GOES 16 imagery. It's certainly more exciting and dreadful when a storm is heading toward land, but a season of recurving storms, or storms that don't hit the US, or the continuation of 'no majors' hitting the US does not indicate the season is boring or the world / oceans / Atlantic has somehow permanently changed.

Let the season continue, post if you see pattern changes that you think warrant discussion (with evidence), and let's review once the season is nearing an end.


For me personally anything to track is interesting. But I like the numbers game too, seeing if the season can get to a certain point. But while I don't play the season cancel game (yet :) ) I will admit that it's becoming increasingly frustrating when the models show storms that never occur (regardless of where or intensity)--it's actually more frustrating now with the models seemingly not knowing what they're doing (and the lack of certainty that accompanies this) than it was weeks ago when the models were simply showing nothing--the more it happens harder it becomes to believe any of the models when they do show development, especially with the continued inconsistency and less than favorable MDR conditions.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1382 Postby SFLcane » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:55 pm

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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1383 Postby Kingarabian » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:16 pm

That TUTT setup may end up as a dangerous one as it'll keep systems weak and allow them to continue moving west within the low level flow. Those systems may eventually find favorable conditions in the Caribbean and their future tracks may not clear land.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1384 Postby Emmett_Brown » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:29 pm

Kingarabian wrote:That TUTT setup may end up as a dangerous one as it'll keep systems weak and allow them to continue moving west within the low level flow. Those systems may eventually find favorable conditions in the Caribbean and their future tracks may not clear land.


Yep, and GFS (not that it will be right, but it could be) shows shear decreasing again in the 3-5 day range. So shear ebbs and flows. Hard to predict shear tendency however. But as you say, these waves eventually move westward. Andrew was a badly sheared TS with 1016 mb pressure as it passed N of the Leewards, and it unfortunately took advantage of better conditions E of the Bahamas.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1385 Postby TheStormExpert » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:59 pm

I like following Michael Ventrice but what gives saying you shouldn't expect a hurricane during the September 7-25th period? That is climatology the peak part of the season especially as or just after September 10th.

 https://twitter.com/mjventrice/status/897559268358057985


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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1386 Postby Hammy » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:05 pm

TheStormExpert wrote:I like following Michael Ventrice but what gives saying you shouldn't expect a hurricane during the September 7-25th period? That is climatology the peak part of the season especially as or just after September 10th.

 https://twitter.com/mjventrice/status/897559268358057985




It happened last year. Wouldn't surprise me since this year seems so MJO-dependent for anything to form.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1387 Postby TheStormExpert » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:07 pm

Hammy wrote:
TheStormExpert wrote:I like following Michael Ventrice but what gives saying you shouldn't expect a hurricane during the September 7-25th period? That is climatology the peak part of the season especially as or just after September 10th.

 https://twitter.com/mjventrice/status/897559268358057985




It happened last year. Wouldn't surprise me since this year seems so MJO-dependent for anything to form.

Just tweeted Michael V. and he said it's the other way around meaning we should expect a hurricane during that period. But yeah the we seem more MJO/Kelvin Wave dependent this season when compared to the last year or so. Last season I remember having to be so dependent on those rising features was 2014 which saw 8/6/2 and featured a hurricane every time the MJO came over our basin.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1388 Postby CYCLONE MIKE » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:21 pm

Well looking at his tweet from just a little while ago, he said "I don't think we'll be able to buy a hurricane during that period. " To me that means he expects it to be extremely quiet.

If the thinking is September could be potentially dead, what we see now might be as good as it gets. A cat one hurricane recurving out into the Atlantic, a struggling 91L invest that was really hyped up by models and some fear mongerers and dubbed first potential major if the season :roll: and now 92L that is starting out showing the same scenario as it's predecessor. But what becomes of it remains to be seen, sure not going to believe any models for the next several days regradless what they show with it.
Last edited by CYCLONE MIKE on Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1389 Postby TheStormExpert » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:28 pm

CYCLONE MIKE wrote:Well looking at his tweet from just a little while ago, he said "I don't think we'll be able to buy a hurricane during that period. " To me that means he expects it to be extremely quiet.

If the thinking is September could be potentially dead, what we see now might be as good as it gets. A cat one hurricane recurving out into the Atlantic, a struggling 91L invest that was really hyped up by models and some fear mongerers and dubbed first potential major if the season :roll: and now 92L that is starting out showing the same scenario as it's predecessor. But what becomes of it remains to be seen, sure not going to believe any models for the next several days.

It's too soon to know for sure but this season may be all over-hyped in terms of everyone saying how active this season may be. Clearly there are a handful of negatives trying their hardest to kill the chance of this season reaching it's max potential.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1390 Postby Kingarabian » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:35 pm

Guys we have two invests with a lot of potential and one more over Africa. I don't buy Ventrice's forecast of a quiet September. That forecast is based on the absence of Kelvin waves We all know that TC genesis can occur without Kelvin waves especially since we'll be at peak of the season. And this is coming from a person who called for 9 named Atlantic storms this season.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1391 Postby tolakram » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:41 pm

Frankly Ventrice has been all over the place, with each new piece of data leading to a definitive statement.

So let's call it straight up.

If we have three waves float harmlessly through the MDR, through the Caribbean, through the gulf or over Florida, without development, something is seriously wrong. If all these waves end up developing late and turning into significant storms, that's another situation entirely. If these waves develop but turn harmlessly out to sea that's still active, but not what the models forecast at the moment. As of today the Euro takes 2 waves and develops both, one a small storm into central America and the other a stronger recurve. Both these are clues of what may come.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1392 Postby Kingarabian » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:13 pm

tolakram wrote:Frankly Ventrice has been all over the place, with each new piece of data leading to a definitive statement.

So let's call it straight up.

If we have three waves float harmlessly through the MDR, through the Caribbean, through the gulf or over Florida, without development, something is seriously wrong. If all these waves end up developing late and turning into significant storms, that's another situation entirely. If these waves develop but turn harmlessly out to sea that's still active, but not what the models forecast at the moment. As of today the Euro takes 2 waves and develops both, one a small storm into central America and the other a stronger recurve. Both these are clues of what may come.


On point. Nonetheless, there are 3 *trackable* systems over the Atlantic with at least decent model support. Considering we're still 5 days away from August 20th, a hurricane hobbyist couldn't ask for more.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1393 Postby Steve » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:21 pm

I don't really see any fear mongering or overhyping. It's like y'all are looking for something to argue about where there isn't a disagreement. I Personally went with the just about average forecast guess plus the April storm to go 14-6-2 w 106 ACE. Many S2K posters have named storm guesses in the mid teens which is likely. Most people have a modest number of hurricanes and IH's with a couple of exceptions. Most have ACE in the 100's with a couple less than 100 and 2 at 200. I don't recall many nationally known or governmental entities calling for a hyper year. It's just that some think there will be a lot of named storms overall. That's probably going to end up being the case considering we are up to 7 and have 3 areas of potential currently being shown by the NHC. If they all develop, we have 10 by around August 20-25. It's not going to take much to get 4 or 5 or 6 more after that. JMO
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1394 Postby tolakram » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:32 pm

I'm not sure how my last post was read but I also think the season will be average to slightly above. I think we will have 3 potential storms knocking on the door in a week, and I don't think we will see any extended quiet period. I was just saying that if we did, or if we see waves flat out refusing to develop, then we have a clear sign something might be wrong.

It's August 15th, not Sept 15th.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1395 Postby Steve » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:36 pm

I was jumping back to Mike and StormExpert. The only thing I really remember reading was Ntxw who cautioned that 2 years after an El Niño often resulted in a major hitting the US. He had the data to back it up but didn't overplay the scenario.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1396 Postby hd44 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:39 pm

To me it looks like an active period through about August 25 or so. It should get quiet from then on another 2 weeks. The second peak may be late september/ into early October. But right now Late august 25 to sept 5...looks to be quiet. Michael Ventrice thinks the same thing.
https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/analysis/models/gfs-ens/2017081512/gfs-ens_chi200_global_30.png
https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/analysis/models/gem-ens/2017081512/gem-ens_chi200_global_31.png

Green = upward motion or mjo. Orange is the downward or sinking motion.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1397 Postby Hammy » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:44 pm

hd44 wrote:To me it looks like an active period through about August 25 or so. It should get quiet from then on another 2 weeks. The second peak may be late september/ into early October. But right now Late august 25 to sept 5...looks to be quiet. Michael Ventrice thinks the same thing.
https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/analysis/models/gfs-ens/2017081512/gfs-ens_chi200_global_30.png
https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/analysis/models/gem-ens/2017081512/gem-ens_chi200_global_31.png

Green = upward motion or mjo. Orange is the downward or sinking motion.


I mentioned 2000 in another thread, interestingly this would also play out similarly if it happens. Aside from Alberto (which was an anomalous long tracker, turning SW on its way to the Azores) there was a spate of activity from August 15-25, with Beryl, Chris, and Debby occurring in there, and then it was largely quiet (except for one short-lived storm on Sep 2)
followed by another stronger active period for the second half of September.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1398 Postby CyclonicFury » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:00 pm

Kingarabian wrote:Guys we have two invests with a lot of potential and one more over Africa. I don't buy Ventrice's forecast of a quiet September. That forecast is based on the absence of Kelvin waves We all know that TC genesis can occur without Kelvin waves especially since we'll be at peak of the season. And this is coming from a person who called for 9 named Atlantic storms this season.

:uarrow: Another thing to point out is how active the EPAC was in July despite sinking motion most of the month, so downward motion doesn't guarantee a lack of activity, especially at the peak of the season. If I remember correctly the Atlantic had downward motion late in August last year and still produced Hurricanes Gaston and Hermine. And even if most of September is quiet, there's always a possibility for an active late September and October like most recent years. It would be hard for this season to finish below average, unless we just struggle to get major hurricanes. I do feel like Mr. Ventrice puts way too much emphasis on MJO/CCKWs.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1399 Postby Alyono » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:36 pm

The main issue with Ventrice is he ONLY is considering planetary waves. Those likely are a small component of the genesis situation

No matter how favorable the planetary waves are, you are not getting genesis in the middle of an anomalously severe SAL outbreak. You cannot turn a turd burger into filet mignon
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#1400 Postby cycloneye » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:43 pm

Almost forgot but here is the 15th update from ECMWF of MSLP for September,October and November and looks like neutral pressures in the Atlantic.

Image
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