Harvey could supplant Katrina as Costliest Hurricane

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Steve
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Re: Harvey could supplant Katrina as Costliest Hurricane

#41 Postby Steve » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:58 pm

wxman57 wrote:My mother lived near the Mississippi coast for Katrina. She "only" got 2 ft of water in her house. I saw the devastation on the MS coast first-hand. Houses completely gone for blocks inland, wiped out by the surge, which, by the way, was only a Cat 3 surge. A Cat 3 storm can only produce a Cat 3 surge. Surge is not a function of SS category (the absolute peak wind in a storm), it's a function of wind field size. A small Cat 3 produces a much lower surge than an average-sized Cat 3, and a very large Cat 3 (like Katrina) produces a surge similar to what an average Cat 5 might produce, but it's still a Cat 3 surge because Katrina was a Cat 3.

As for Harvey (living in Houston), I can tell you that the area affected by the flood was WAY larger than the area of homes destroyed by Katrina's storm surge (and levee failure). Lots of very expensive homes, too (not New Orleans 9th ward-type homes). It'll take a while to get the final damage tally, but I think Harvey will exceed Katrina in today's dollars. That's not to say Katrina was "nothing". Both were terrible disasters.


Thanks for that post wxman57.

I've seen scientists and weathermen speculate that the strength and lift (?) the dome/surge of water got when Katrina peaked over the loop current with only a couple hundred miles to the coast and nowhere else for the water to the north/northeast of the storm to disburse is suspected to have contributed to the surge. I don't really understand fluid dynamics enough to know whether that meant height, force or whatever. And I think it's still an open question as to whether or not and how much the strength was part of the specific surge she generated on the MS Gulf Coast and into Lake Pontchartrain and the Rigolets. Obviously I trust what you're saying regarding the size of the storm. But it just seems to me that dynamics would play at least some part in that as well.

The Lower 9th Ward wasn't the only part of the city that had destroyed homes though. Those areas east and south of the Industrial Canal were pretty wiped out. But most of the rest of the city all the way to Lakeview, West End and into Old Metairie where I lived were mostly destroyed. It's different because everything isn't all broken smashed up. It just sits there and rots. And with the month it took for many of us with homes close to or in the city to even be able to get back inside our properties without boats, I think you saw the worst flooding could do because you just didn't have a chance to dry out. Including the coast, we had over a million damaged homes and I think probably 35-40% of those destroyed. Due to the duration, Harvey was a larger swath of population and areas that it affected. It's going to be interesting to keep up with the real statistics as they are tabulated.
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Re: Harvey could supplant Katrina as Costliest Hurricane

#42 Postby Audrey2Katrina » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:09 am

wxman57 wrote: As for Harvey (living in Houston), I can tell you that the area affected by the flood was WAY larger than the area of homes destroyed by Katrina's storm surge (and levee failure). Lots of very expensive homes, too (not New Orleans 9th ward-type homes). It'll take a while to get the final damage tally, but I think Harvey will exceed Katrina in today's dollars. That's not to say Katrina was "nothing". Both were terrible disasters.


Indeed they both were. Now I can't dispute your first hand experience or what your mother went through; but having several close friends of mine who lived in points ranging from Bay St. Louis, across to Pascagoula, I can assure you that Katrina's surge went as far as 12 miles inland as reported by many sites including USGS mapping of flooded areas of Katrina and Rita done in 2009. Extrapolating that to an average of only 5 this would mean over 200 sq. mi. flooded from surge alone--and that alone in MS. There was also massive flooding reported in Alabama...some of the pics around Mobile show impressive flooding... lets give it a conservative 30-40 sq mi. more. The city of New Orleans is about 350 sq miles, and 80% of it was under an average of 10 to 20 feet of water, that's about 280 more square miles so we're already about 500 square miles of flooding and some of that is quite DEEP flooding. Now let's look at St. Bernard parish which is approximately 2,100 square miles and 90% of which went "under" to Katrina's waters -- (look I'll be the first to concede this is largely uninhabited but if we're talking land area flooded.. let's get a full picture!) Now we have an area equal in size to the entire state of Delaware -- under water. -- Harvey may well wind up having flooded "more" than 2,500 square miles of land -- I don't have the figures, the closest I could find was a University of Colorado satellite imagery estimate showing flooding across 234 square miles (600 sq km)of Harris County and 51 square miles (132 sq km) of Galveston County, about one-eighth of each county's land area. I am well aware that this does NOT comprise the entire area of flooding; but it's a sizable chunk of it. If you have concrete evidence in terms of sq. miles of land that was inundated, I'd be interested in knowing it. Like you I am convinced Harvey will surpass Katrina in dollar cost--I've already said as much--and a little more tactfully, I think, admitted the difference in property value without referencing the poorest area in New Orleans--which is quite the opposite of Lakeview where 300-500 thousand dollar homes were quite abundant--and sitting in 23 feet of water in many places. Some sections of "Old Metairie" had million dollar homes sitting in the stench of stagnant waters as well for maybe weeks?

All that aside, The map the NYT did showing the areas around Houston and the inches of rain is quite extraordinary--but I wonder if I'd say that the area was "WAY larger" because looking at maps of both total areas... I might see larger--but not really WAY larger... I guess semantics is getting brought into the discussion again. At any rate: Yes, the average home in a much more cosmopolitan city, such as Houston will be WAY more than the cost of the "average" home in New Orleans. Early estimates are that up to as many as 60,000 homes may have been severely damaged or total losses due to the flooding in Houston (I'm fairly certain that figure will go up--they always do!). In New Orleans and surrounding areas (not including Mississippi) only about 200,000 houses were declared severely damaged or total losses--then again 60,000 @ $750,000 ea. will be much more than even 250,000 @ about $80,000 ea. (I'm actually serious here as my own former home in New Orleans was "bought" for demolition at the handsome price of $90,000. So I guess all I'm really disagreeing on is the claim that the flooded areas were WAY more by Harvey-- I dunno, it may well turn out it was; but so far I just don't see it that way. People Affected!!! THAT was "WAY" more... beyond any shadow of a doubt. (4th largest metro area in the nation).

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Re: Harvey could supplant Katrina as Costliest Hurricane

#43 Postby stormlover2013 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:50 am

Harvey was worse than katrina just the way it is, katrina was bad but if levees don't break katrina isn't as bad. People hype that storm up 24-7 that lived around there. I can promise you nobody has seen a flood ever in the USA like harvey was. It was flat out crazy!!!! when you get 50 inches of rain in 4-5 day span that's just unheard of and some people getting 20-25 inches just in a 24 hour span is unheard of, I live in the beaumont area and I have never ever seen this area like this. Also my buddies that live in the houston area have said the same thing.
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Re: Harvey could supplant Katrina as Costliest Hurricane

#44 Postby lrak » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:24 am

My friend said they flew over Galveston bay and it was grey. Animals floating like cows and horses those are big animals, can you imagine what other poor creatures died in the flood and toxins? Very bad and sad for all the life in the Texas triangle.
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Re: Harvey could supplant Katrina as Costliest Hurricane

#45 Postby Steve » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:10 am

stormlover2013 wrote:Harvey was worse than katrina just the way it is, katrina was bad but if levees don't break katrina isn't as bad. People hype that storm up 24-7 that lived around there. I can promise you nobody has seen a flood ever in the USA like harvey was. It was flat out crazy!!!! when you get 50 inches of rain in 4-5 day span that's just unheard of and some people getting 20-25 inches just in a 24 hour span is unheard of, I live in the beaumont area and I have never ever seen this area like this. Also my buddies that live in the houston area have said the same thing.


?

I live around there and am not hyping it at all and probably legitimately have been called out on undethyping it in this very thread. It's a cost issue. $160B was our worst to date. That's probably triple or quadruple the Northridge earthquake of 1994 in today's dollars. I take no ownership of Katrina in this thread though it affected me.
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Re: Harvey could supplant Katrina as Costliest Hurricane

#46 Postby Audrey2Katrina » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:23 pm

stormlover2013 wrote:Harvey was worse than katrina just the way it is, katrina was bad but if levees don't break katrina isn't as bad. People hype that storm up 24-7 that lived around there. I can promise you nobody has seen a flood ever in the USA like harvey was. It was flat out crazy!!!! when you get 50 inches of rain in 4-5 day span that's just unheard of and some people getting 20-25 inches just in a 24 hour span is unheard of, I live in the beaumont area and I have never ever seen this area like this. Also my buddies that live in the houston area have said the same thing.


You see, this is EXACTLY what I'm talking about with the way some people just HAVE to say "MY storm was WORSE than YOUR STORM!!!!" [stamps feet!]. Harvey may well wind up costing more in dollars and cents than Katrina if for no better reason than much higher density of population, more modern construction and escalated building costs. The line "if the levees don't break" is the most overused of the people who haven't got the whole picture at all. Katrina devastated 90,000 SQUARE MILES of land--- that's a heck of a lot more than levee damages--and what I just don't get---that these people "don't get" is that without Katrina, the levees DON'T break--you can't separate the two events. But there are those who've made up their minds and nothing in the world will ever change them. Their storm is the worst so you just deal with it! (pout pout)! I know of nobody who "hypes" Katrina 24-7 (sounds like a bit of exaggeration, maybe?) and I sure don't. Camille, as intensity and power beats Katrina by a mile. Wilma was even more intense (than Camille) at its peak! Gilbert was both bigger and badder [sic]. I could go on but I hope folks get the picture. It's more about don't try to trivialize a storm that killed nearly 2,000 people (730 are officially listed as STILL missing and never have been accounted for since that storm). And you can whine about levees till you're blue in the face--Katrina was what made them over-top, and break--no way to separate the two. Taking away all the flooding in New Orleans... you still would have 89,700 square miles of devastation -- I'd call that pretty bad! Tell the folks on the Mississippi Gulf Coast that if levees don't break, then Katrina isn't "as" bad! Oh, and unlike some, I won't make a blanket statement about this; but I'd heard the rains (which weren't 50 inches all over the entire SE Texas area---but from 1 reporting station --I could be wrong--because it doesn't matter... the 40--38 whatever that MOST of the area did get was quite enough--- still, I'd heard a lot of rivers, canals, creeks, (whatever you want to call them) overtopped! Do we say let's not count these because without them failing to drain off the water "it wouldn't be as bad"? Harvey was a HORRIBLE storm... no two ways about it! And so was Katrina! There shouldn't even be a "bragging rights" issue involved in these human tragedies at all! JMHO.

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