Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

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Dean_175
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#21 Postby Dean_175 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:58 am

zhukm29 wrote:
TheStormExpert wrote:
Nuno wrote:Seeing its been 15 years since the last time the Greek alphabet was used, I dont think most hurricane seasons will be this active.

15 years is not that long of a time considering the most recent season like 2005 was 1933. So it is likely becoming more common due to climate change.


I don't want to downplay the threat of climate change, but this is also a result of better technology that allows us to detect and measure the strength of storms that we wouldn't have been able to detect decades ago.

For perspective, every name list in the Atlantic has reached the T name except for one (list 1, which will be used next year). The T name is right on the edge of the list, and in many of those years we had 2+ tropical depressions that could have easily become tropical storms. From a pure statistical perspective, it's much harder to go past 24 names than 21 names. And yeah, 15 years is not a lot of time - 2010 could have been close as well, with 21 depressions, which could have exhausted the list had those depressions gained an additional 5 mph of strength.



2010 easily had Greek letter potential. If I remember correctly, July and August missed their potential that year due to lots of dry air and SAL. If 2010 had a summer like 2008 or 2011, it would have been a Greek letter season(and one with impressive ACE too).
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#22 Postby Hurricane Mike » Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:39 pm

There is already discussions about what happens should a Greek name warrant retirement. Some say just add it to the list as "DELTA 2020" or something but keep the name for future usage. I have another idea. How about create an auxiliary list of names that can be replaced if need be?

I think using colors would be a good idea. Of course without using possibly sensitive ones like black or white or brown. Maybe something like this:

Auburn
Bronze
Copper
Denim
Emerald
Fuchsia
Gold
Hickory
Indigo
Jade
Khaki
Lavender
Maroon
Neon
Orchid
Pink
Ruby
Saffron
Teal
Violet
Walnut


I came up with those quickly, and if you ever needed replacement names, here's a second list:

Aqua
Beige
Crimson
Dogwood
Eggplant
Frost
Green
Hibiscus
Ivory
Julep
Kiwi
Lilac
Mint
Nickel
Orange
Purple
Rust
Slate
Turquoise
Viridian
Wisteria


Thoughts?
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#23 Postby northjaxpro » Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:41 pm

Where is my Sapphire for colors..... It is my birthstone, which is this month.
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#24 Postby Hurricane Mike » Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:12 pm

northjaxpro wrote:Where is my Sapphire for colors..... It is my birthstone, which is this month.



LOL Almost did but I chose Saffron instead.

Here's another list. I'm telling ya, I honestly think colors would be a much, much better alternative than a set-in-stone Greek alphabet.

Alabaster
Blue
Chartreuse
Daintree
Evergreen
Foam
Grey
Honeysuckle
Ivy
Juniper
Kelp
Lime
Moss
Nutmeg
Olive
Periwinkle
Red
Shamrock
Tangerine
Verdigris
Wood
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#25 Postby Hammy » Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:18 pm

Wouldn't they simply skip it should we reach the list again?
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#26 Postby Nuno » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:55 pm

This whole greek letter-retirement fear goes hand in hand with the fact that maybe we are too quick to pull the trigger on name retirement.
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#27 Postby HurricaneRyan » Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:38 pm

Delta is going to make a run for it, and surprise surprise, it also passes as a real name. So...it's going to put that rule to the test.
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#28 Postby MetroMike » Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:47 pm

HurricaneRyan wrote:Delta is going to make a run for it, and surprise surprise, it also passes as a real name. So...it's going to put that rule to the test.


It is still a letter in the Greek alphabet though.
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#29 Postby abajan » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:39 am

Since both Eta and Iota will likely be retired, what names will they use in their place if and when a similar number of Atlantic tropical cyclones occurs? Eta Part Deux? Iota 2? :P
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#30 Postby underthwx » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:56 am

Does it have to be a Greek replacement storm name?... Maybe, simply insert an name that starts a E, and a I?..believe me...there were never two more storms that deserve retirement more than these two...I went through what Harvey' had to offer, along with millions of others...
..and lost....but ETA and IOTA are on a different level of danger than I have experienced personally in my lifetime so far...so that's what I got on that..
Last edited by underthwx on Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#31 Postby kevin » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:18 am

If it were up to me I'd just get rid of the whole Greek naming system and just have a back-up A - W name list that can be used if we run out of the first list. Considering how rare it is to have a season go into the Greek letters, we'll probably just be able to use the same back-up list for years or hopefully decades until another freak season like 2005 or 2020 occurs. So it's not like we would have to come up with twice as many names every year or something like that. Then again it's not up to me, but I do think a similar discussion will start to take place at the NHC and the organisations responsible with providing name lists for storms now that the season is almost over.
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#32 Postby underthwx » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:21 am

kevin wrote:If it were up to me I'd just get rid of the whole Greek naming system and just have a back-up A - W name list that can be used if we run out of the first list. Considering how rare it is to have a season go into the Greek letters, we'll probably just be able to use the same back-up list for years or hopefully decades until another freak season like 2005 or 2020 occurs. So it's not like we would have to come up with twice as many names every year or something like that. Then again it's not up to me, but I do think a similar discussion will start to take place at the NHC and the organisations responsible with providing storm name lists now that the season is almost over.

Wish I said that....works for me...
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#33 Postby Ryxn » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:27 am

......Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, Epsilon, Zeta, Theta, Kappa, Lambda

Yes, I think the letter or name or whatever one wants to call it should be removed form the auxiliary list if it's being retired. I personally don't see this as disrespecting the Greek Alphabet due to the loss and destruction caused by the storm. The letter still exists, it just wouldn't be used to name any Atlantic storms anymore. Since there are 24 letters in the Greek alphabet, it would take an awful long time for all the letters to be removed so with this method, NHC shouldn't have to worry about finding a new auxiliary list anytime soon. However, I do think NHC should adopt a new auxiliary list if more and more seasons turn out to be hyperactive and cause more retirement cases for Greek storms. One wouldn't want all 24 letters of a language their learning to remind them of destruction and suffering would they? Why have letters remind them of that when human names can? Yes that was some humor. But naming storms after humans and retiring those deemed deserved of retirement is what we've been used to for almost 70 years. No need to bring in language. Let's keep it simple.

Also I think the whole "Eta 2020" would confuse and upset people, especially those in the storm's affected regions.

Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#34 Postby underthwx » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:33 am

Ryxn wrote:......Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, Epsilon, Zeta, Theta, Kappa, Lambda

Yes, I think the letter or name or whatever one wants to call it should be removed form the auxiliary list if it's being retired. I personally don't see this as disrespecting the Greek Alphabet due to the loss and destruction caused by the storm. The letter still exists, it just wouldn't be used to name any Atlantic storms anymore. Since there are 24 letters in the Greek alphabet, it would take an awful long time for all the letters to be removed so with this method, NHC shouldn't have to worry about finding a new auxiliary list anytime soon. However, I do think NHC should adopt a new auxiliary list if more and more seasons turn out to be hyperactive and cause more retirement cases for Greek storms. One wouldn't want all 24 letters of a language their learning to remind them of destruction and suffering would they? Why have letters remind them of that when human names can? Yes that was some humor. But naming storms after humans and retiring those deemed deserved of retirement is what we've been used to for almost 70 years. No need to bring in language. Let's keep it simple.

Also I think the whole "Eta 2020" would confuse and upset people, especially those in the storm's affected regions.

Just my 2 cents.

Great post!...
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#35 Postby abajan » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:10 am

I've been reliably informed by someone who posed this question to our Met Office (Barbados Meteorological Services), that should the occasion arise, there would be some reference to the respective year. For instance, if there's a 28th named storm in 2030 it will be named Eta2030 or something similar. Sounds a bit unwieldly to me, but I doubt we'll be hitting the Greek names very often.
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#36 Postby tomatkins » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:02 am

abajan wrote:Since both Eta and Iota will likely be retired, what names will they use in their place if and when a similar number of Atlantic tropical cyclones occurs? Eta Part Deux? Iota 2? :P

This whole controversy is so dumb. Like why not just retire the Greek letters and not replace them at all. There are 24 Greek letters, none would have been retired in 2005. Only 3 this year. If, at some point in 50 years or whatever we have retired every single Greek letter, then find some new alphabet to use.

But for right now I think we would be fine for decades to come if we have to retire a greek letter or two every decade.
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#37 Postby tomatkins » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:03 am

Ryxn wrote:......Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, Epsilon, Zeta, Theta, Kappa, Lambda

Yes, I think the letter or name or whatever one wants to call it should be removed form the auxiliary list if it's being retired. I personally don't see this as disrespecting the Greek Alphabet due to the loss and destruction caused by the storm. The letter still exists, it just wouldn't be used to name any Atlantic storms anymore. Since there are 24 letters in the Greek alphabet, it would take an awful long time for all the letters to be removed so with this method, NHC shouldn't have to worry about finding a new auxiliary list anytime soon. However, I do think NHC should adopt a new auxiliary list if more and more seasons turn out to be hyperactive and cause more retirement cases for Greek storms. One wouldn't want all 24 letters of a language their learning to remind them of destruction and suffering would they? Why have letters remind them of that when human names can? Yes that was some humor. But naming storms after humans and retiring those deemed deserved of retirement is what we've been used to for almost 70 years. No need to bring in language. Let's keep it simple.

Also I think the whole "Eta 2020" would confuse and upset people, especially those in the storm's affected regions.

Just my 2 cents.

Yes - the current plan is like putting an athletes name in the Hall of Fame but not retiring his number. Its also contrary to the stated reason for retiring names at all.
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#38 Postby Shell Mound » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:06 am

Maybe we should depersonalise forces of nature and simply go with numerical designations from now on.

Example: MH* AL12-20 (basin + storm #-last two digits of YYYY).

*MH = Major Hurricane
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#39 Postby DioBrando » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:16 pm

The NHC actually lobbied for the Greek naming system to be abolished, but the WMO rejected the proposition.
They need to reconsider abolishing the system. Why? Look at what's going on right now in Central America.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110718172 ... nitems.pdf (page 10)
https://www.wmo.int/pages/prog/www/tcp/ ... -32_en.pdf (page 10)
https://web.archive.org/web/20110722013 ... -HC-28.pdf (page 11)

Incoming tl;dr

Quote:

"Title: Replace Backup Tropical Cyclone “Greek Alphabet” Name List with Secondary
Atlantic Tropical Cyclone Name List
Submitter: NOAA/NWS
Discussion: Since 1953, NHC has utilized a naming protocol for Atlantic tropical cyclones that use
commonly known, short, distinctive names understood by the general public and media.
The name lists, which have been agreed upon at international meetings of the WMO,
have a French, Spanish, Dutch and English due to the geographical coverage of the
storms throughout the Atlantic and Caribbean.
If a name is retired, it can be easily replaced with another common name that is
understood and well known throughout the tropical basin.
However, if the primary name list is exhausted, as it was in 2005, NHC ceases the simple
and well understood naming protocol and resorts to use of the less understood and
inconsistent Greek Alphabet as the backup list. Feedback received from the general
public, media and EM community about the practice of using the Greek Alphabet for
naming tropical cyclones was generally unfavorable with comments such as “ludicrous,”
“idiotic” to “ridiculous.”
The use of the Greek Alphabet as a backup list to the primary list of Atlantic tropical
cyclone names has several disadvantages:
● Generally unknown and confusing to the public.
● Inconsistent with the standard naming convention used for tropical cyclones.
● If a Greek letter has to be retired, it cannot be replaced.
● Defeats the purpose of using commonly known, short distinctive names
understood by the public and media (ex: The Greek Alphabet jumps from a “B”
storm to a “G” storm then back to a “D” storm. If you expect an “F” storm
instead you will jump to “Z”).

Recommendation: Develop a secondary name list, utilizing conventions of the primary name list, that could
be placed into service if the primary Atlantic Cyclone name list is exhausted. Named
storms from the secondary or alternate list that require retirement could easily be
replenished based on recommendations from the WMO. IHC to forward to RA-IV
Committee.
Action: Accept recommendation. Further action on this item is dependent on whether the RA-IV
Committee approves the recommendation.
Status (3/22/10): The WMO RA IV Hurricane Committee met from 8-12 March 2010 and did not approve
this recommendation. CLOSED
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Re: Discussion of Greek Storm Names and their Retirement

#40 Postby aspen » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:31 pm

If the WMO decides to scrap the Greek alphabet and replace it with an auxiliary name list, would that mean Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, Epsilon, Zeta, Eta, Theta, and Iota are all technically retired, even though Delta, Zeta, Eta, and Iota are the only ones that would be retired due to damages and deaths?
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