Tropical or Not? We may have an Answer Yet...

This is the general tropical discussion area. Anyone can take their shot at predicting a storms path.

Moderator: S2k Moderators

Forum rules

The posts in this forum are NOT official forecasts and should not be used as such. They are just the opinion of the poster and may or may not be backed by sound meteorological data. They are NOT endorsed by any professional institution or STORM2K. For official information, please refer to products from the National Hurricane Center and National Weather Service.

Help Support Storm2K
Message
Author
User avatar
Wthrman13
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 12:44 pm
Location: West Lafayette, IN
Contact:

#41 Postby Wthrman13 » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:57 pm

wxman57 wrote:
Wthrman13 wrote:Regarding watching the buoy temperatures for evidence of tropical characteristics: folks should keep in mind that the *surface* temperatures remain relatively constant as one moves toward the center of a TC. The warm core really only becomes apparent above the surface, due to latent heat release in the updrafts, and, in the case that the TC has an eye, due to subsidence warming inside the eye. The reason the surface temperatures remain relatively constant at the surface is that the warming due to the heat flux off of the ocean surface is nearly balanced by the cooling due to the pressure drop as the air moves in toward the center of the TC (where the pressure is lower). It's the first leg of the heat engine (Carnot engine) cycle: isothermal expansion.


That's certainly true, the buoy observations of temperature can't tell us if the system was warm or cold core. However, the buoy can provide other clues as to the structure of the low center. The sharp pressure drop combined with a sharp rise in wind speed near the core is more representative of a warm-core low than a much larger cold-core low. Actually, this system does appear to have both tropical and subtropical characteristics. In my opinion, more tropical than subtropical. But I don't think it's even close to being extratropical (or was earlier today).

Unfortunately, I think this will be one of those forgotten systems at the end of the 2006 season. I say "unfortunately" because I think that we'll see a lot more significant storms in the next 2 months. Kind of like New Orleans not even discussing Cindy after Katrina hit. The east U.S. Coast still looks like a prime area for landfalls in August/September.

I'm still hoping for a 1-storm season, though (1.5 counting this unnamed storm) ;-)


Indeed, I agree about the pressure drop, etc. If I had to categorize it, I'd say it was a subtropical storm. The satellite presentation, especially the pattern of the upper-level outflow, seems to argue for a cold core aloft.
0 likes   

User avatar
MGC
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 5792
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2003 9:05 pm
Location: Pass Christian MS, or what is left.

#42 Postby MGC » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:59 pm

I think this system should have been named. I've seen far less named in the past. If not a TC than surely a STS. They will likely admit their error at the end of the season.....MGC
0 likes   

User avatar
brunota2003
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 9476
Age: 33
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:56 pm
Location: Stanton, KY...formerly Havelock, NC
Contact:

#43 Postby brunota2003 » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:21 pm

brunota2003 wrote:so what your saying is the SPC/TPC/and HPC are all wrong in analizing it? they take all of their forecasts and place them together to form the graphic, plus the surface graphic they also use the OPC...so basicially all of NOAA is wrong...
Sorry, didnt back that post up...
From the HPC:
http://www.hpc.ncep.noaa.gov/sfc/90fwbg.gif
Surface from the OPC:
http://weather.noaa.gov/pub/fax/PYEB86.gif
http://weather.noaa.gov/pub/fax/PYEB87.gif
http://weather.noaa.gov/pub/fax/PYEB85.gif
http://weather.noaa.gov/pub/fax/PYEB88.gif
From SPC:
http://www.spc.noaa.gov/products/fire_w ... .html#Day1
Of course we all know what the TPC said...
You can not see the low in the fire outlook, but the cold front does appear continue on. My question though is if they made a mistake on one of the maps, why didn't they simply correct it instead of posting the mistake on map updates all day today? Wouldn't it be easier to tell your boss that you slipped up a little and then change the one map and make sure others don't make the same mistake over the course of the day, as it happens on occasion, then have him come ask/yell at everyone for posting the same mistake on the maps over the course of an entire day??? Which would you do? Admit your mistake or get yelled at? I would go for the admit...but that is just me...Do you mets on here continuely post the same mistake over and over again?
I know I'm trying to blow up a steel reinforced concrete wall with a puny hand grenade...but you got to try every so often right? thats how you learn...
0 likes   

User avatar
wxman57
Moderator-Pro Met
Moderator-Pro Met
Posts: 22480
Age: 66
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2003 8:06 pm
Location: Houston, TX (southwest)

#44 Postby wxman57 » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:53 am

brunota2003 wrote:so what your saying is the SPC/TPC/and HPC are all wrong in analizing it? they take all of their forecasts and place them together to form the graphic, plus the surface graphic they also use the OPC...so basicially all of NOAA is wrong...


Precisely - they're all incorrectly analyzing a frontal boundary, probably based upon its appearance on satellite. I admit, if you just look at a satellite picture/loop, then the cloud structure would indicate a frontal boundary off the east coast. But if you dig further and actually plot a surface map you can see that the surface front has dissipated.

I see that this system has been brought up for discussion on the tropical storms mailing list now. Core analysis indicates warm-core by the Florida State MM5. Perhaps I'll chime in there.
0 likes   

User avatar
Thunder44
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 5922
Age: 43
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 7:53 pm
Location: New York City

#45 Postby Thunder44 » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:14 am

wxman57 wrote:
brunota2003 wrote:so what your saying is the SPC/TPC/and HPC are all wrong in analizing it? they take all of their forecasts and place them together to form the graphic, plus the surface graphic they also use the OPC...so basicially all of NOAA is wrong...


Precisely - they're all incorrectly analyzing a frontal boundary, probably based upon its appearance on satellite. I admit, if you just look at a satellite picture/loop, then the cloud structure would indicate a frontal boundary off the east coast. But if you dig further and actually plot a surface map you can see that the surface front has dissipated.

I see that this system has been brought up for discussion on the tropical storms mailing list now. Core analysis indicates warm-core by the Florida State MM5. Perhaps I'll chime in there.


Where is that?
0 likes   

User avatar
drezee
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 3643
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:49 pm
Location: FL

#46 Postby drezee » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:32 am

Wthrman13 wrote:Regarding watching the buoy temperatures for evidence of tropical characteristics: folks should keep in mind that the *surface* temperatures remain relatively constant as one moves toward the center of a TC. The warm core really only becomes apparent above the surface, due to latent heat release in the updrafts, and, in the case that the TC has an eye, due to subsidence warming inside the eye. The reason the surface temperatures remain relatively constant at the surface is that the warming due to the heat flux off of the ocean surface is nearly balanced by the cooling due to the pressure drop as the air moves in toward the center of the TC (where the pressure is lower). It's the first leg of the heat engine (Carnot engine) cycle: isothermal expansion.


What you say is true, but a cold core system would have absolutely no reason to rise in temperature as the center moves closer (overnight). As you saw in the observations, the temperature raised rather abruptly as the center passed. Warm core is measured by recon at those levels, but I can personally attest to being in 6 hurricane nightime landfalls. In each one the temperature rose abruptly as the core came closer and the center was very warm compared to what it should have been in rain overnight. I will pull some observations together to prove this point later.
0 likes   

User avatar
benny
Category 2
Category 2
Posts: 593
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:09 am
Location: Miami

#47 Postby benny » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:25 am

I see no evidence of a front attached to this thing, despite the analysis. looks ST or tropical to me. rather warm core in the center. inner wind maximum. temperature rise in the center. i give it some chance of being added at the end of the year as an unnamed system.
0 likes   

User avatar
brunota2003
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 9476
Age: 33
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:56 pm
Location: Stanton, KY...formerly Havelock, NC
Contact:

#48 Postby brunota2003 » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:31 am

I think we will all find out at the end of the year...but thats scary that everyone messed up... :eek:
0 likes   

User avatar
Wthrman13
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 12:44 pm
Location: West Lafayette, IN
Contact:

#49 Postby Wthrman13 » Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:57 am

drezee wrote:
Wthrman13 wrote:Regarding watching the buoy temperatures for evidence of tropical characteristics: folks should keep in mind that the *surface* temperatures remain relatively constant as one moves toward the center of a TC. The warm core really only becomes apparent above the surface, due to latent heat release in the updrafts, and, in the case that the TC has an eye, due to subsidence warming inside the eye. The reason the surface temperatures remain relatively constant at the surface is that the warming due to the heat flux off of the ocean surface is nearly balanced by the cooling due to the pressure drop as the air moves in toward the center of the TC (where the pressure is lower). It's the first leg of the heat engine (Carnot engine) cycle: isothermal expansion.


What you say is true, but a cold core system would have absolutely no reason to rise in temperature as the center moves closer (overnight). As you saw in the observations, the temperature raised rather abruptly as the center passed. Warm core is measured by recon at those levels, but I can personally attest to being in 6 hurricane nightime landfalls. In each one the temperature rose abruptly as the core came closer and the center was very warm compared to what it should have been in rain overnight. I will pull some observations together to prove this point later.


Yes, especially if the TC has an eye, the temperature near the center at the surface can be higher, but probably not by a whole lot, since the subsidence warming from aloft really doesn't reach to the surface. I've been in 2 hurricane eyes myself (Isabel and Frances), and can also attest to at least a subjective feeling of greater warmth, although I didn't actually measure the temperatures. I would be interested to see your observations, however.

On the other hand, a cold core system could indeed exhibit a rise in surface temperature toward the center at a fixed station, if the station gets into the warm sector or warm seclusion near the center, depending on the intensity.

I think a good case can be made for classifying this system as subtropical at its peak, with a warm core at least in the low levels. We'll wait to see the post-season analysis.
0 likes   


Return to “Talkin' Tropics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AnnularCane, Beef Stew, Google Adsense [Bot], IamKelleyP, KirbyDude25, lilbump3000, NotSparta, RomP and 191 guests