ENSO Updates (2007 thru 2023)

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Kingarabian
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9701 Postby Kingarabian » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:17 pm

Eric Webb wrote:Intraseasonal forcing will back off the gas pedal temporarily in July but the EPS weeklies shows the atmosphere clearly moving to a NINO state next month w/ upward motion focused over the east-central Pacific and an intriguing area of secondary upward motion over Africa. The Atlantic likely won't be favorable enough to take advantage of this whatsoever but the Northeastern Pacific will love it. This large-scale pattern is arguably even more favorable for the East Pacific than the last active era during the 1980s and 1990s w/ an active AEW train.

https://twitter.com/RyanMaue/status/1009476865608822784


Agreed that much of the favorable rising air moving into the Atlantic will not do much. Even if forcing lays off for a while in the Pacifc, June in the EPAC has gone bonkers. +PMM and warming ENSO regions will only induce more local development, meaning lower pressures will be predominantly over the EPAC and higher pressures will likely be situated over the Caribbean and MDR.
Last edited by Kingarabian on Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9702 Postby Kingarabian » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:17 pm

WWB in the EPAC coming up on the latest GFS forecast:

Image
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9703 Postby Eric Webb » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:40 pm

Kingarabian wrote:
Eric Webb wrote:Intraseasonal forcing will back off the gas pedal temporarily in July but the EPS weeklies shows the atmosphere clearly moving to a NINO state next month w/ upward motion focused over the east-central Pacific and an intriguing area of secondary upward motion over Africa. The Atlantic likely won't be favorable enough to take advantage of this whatsoever but the Northeastern Pacific will love it. This large-scale pattern is arguably even more favorable for the East Pacific than the last active era during the 1980s and 1990s w/ an active AEW train.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/RyanMaue/status/1009476865608822784[tweet]


Agreed that much of the favorable rising air moving into the Atlantic will not do much. Even if forcing lays off for a while in the Pacifc, June in the EPAC has gone bonkers. +PMM and warming ENSO regions will only induce more local development, meaning lower pressures will be predominantly over the EPAC and higher pressures will likely be situated over the Caribbean and MDR.


If (big IF** (some of the intraseasonal forcing may be washed out in the model)) the EPS is right, just wait til you see what July has in store for the EP, certainly won't be long before we get those classic, very long-lived and long-tracked TCs in the EP that attempt to threaten Hawaii. If the globe continues to warm, there will eventually come a day in the extremely distant future where the mean climate will be conducive enough by itself to legitimately threaten Hawaii w/ tropical cyclones every year even without any help from an El Nino or a +PMM as is the case now.
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9704 Postby Kingarabian » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:45 pm

Eric Webb wrote:
Kingarabian wrote:
Eric Webb wrote:Intraseasonal forcing will back off the gas pedal temporarily in July but the EPS weeklies shows the atmosphere clearly moving to a NINO state next month w/ upward motion focused over the east-central Pacific and an intriguing area of secondary upward motion over Africa. The Atlantic likely won't be favorable enough to take advantage of this whatsoever but the Northeastern Pacific will love it. This large-scale pattern is arguably even more favorable for the East Pacific than the last active era during the 1980s and 1990s w/ an active AEW train.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/RyanMaue/status/1009476865608822784[tweet]


Agreed that much of the favorable rising air moving into the Atlantic will not do much. Even if forcing lays off for a while in the Pacifc, June in the EPAC has gone bonkers. +PMM and warming ENSO regions will only induce more local development, meaning lower pressures will be predominantly over the EPAC and higher pressures will likely be situated over the Caribbean and MDR.


If (big IF** (some of the intraseasonal forcing may be washed out in the model)) the EPS is right, just wait til you see what July has in store for the EP, certainly won't be long before we get those classic, very long-lived and long-tracked TCs in the EP that attempt to threaten Hawaii. If the globe continues to warm, there will eventually come a day in the extremely distant future where the mean climate will be conducive enough by itself to legitimately threaten Hawaii w/ tropical cyclones every year even without any help from an El Nino or a +PMM as is the case now.


What has protected Hawaii a lot and helped the negate the threat of rising SST's temperatures around Hawaii, is shear. I know that El Nino reduces shear in the CPAC/EPAC, but what about a +PMM? Is it similar to the Atlantic, in where the SST configuration/temperatures also influence shear patterns?
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9705 Postby Eric Webb » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:18 pm

Kingarabian wrote:
Eric Webb wrote:
Kingarabian wrote:
Agreed that much of the favorable rising air moving into the Atlantic will not do much. Even if forcing lays off for a while in the Pacifc, June in the EPAC has gone bonkers. +PMM and warming ENSO regions will only induce more local development, meaning lower pressures will be predominantly over the EPAC and higher pressures will likely be situated over the Caribbean and MDR.


If (big IF** (some of the intraseasonal forcing may be washed out in the model)) the EPS is right, just wait til you see what July has in store for the EP, certainly won't be long before we get those classic, very long-lived and long-tracked TCs in the EP that attempt to threaten Hawaii. If the globe continues to warm, there will eventually come a day in the extremely distant future where the mean climate will be conducive enough by itself to legitimately threaten Hawaii w/ tropical cyclones every year even without any help from an El Nino or a +PMM as is the case now.


What has protected Hawaii a lot and helped the negate the threat of rising SST's temperatures around Hawaii, is shear. I know that El Nino reduces shear in the CPAC/EPAC, but what about a +PMM? Is it similar to the Atlantic, in where the SST configuration/temperatures also influence shear patterns?


The PMM is an analogous mode of variability to the Atlantic in that they both involve interactions between mid-latitude rossby waves breaking into the tropics which affect the trade winds and the meridional juxtaposition of their respective intertropical convergence zones (ITCZs) towards the warmer hemispheres. Many including Markami et al (2016): https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/JCLI-D-16-0424.1 actually show through NWP simulations which are able to separate the influence of the ENSO and PMM that the PMM actually plays a larger role in Eastern Pacific TC seasonal activity than ENSO, although it plays a significant role west of 120W.

The positive phase of the PMM decreases the climatological shear over the EP, raises the ITCZ further from the equator, making it more unstable and prone to vorticity roll-up due to greater coriolis defletion. A +PMM also increases the geographical expanse of the EP's main development region by warming the SSTs to the NE near the edge of the basin where the cool California current demarcates the poleward extent of TCG and ACE accrual in the NE Pac. In addition the +PMM is also often coupled to ENSO and both contribute to cyclonic vorticity advection in the NE Pacific by reducing the climatological trade winds.
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9706 Postby Ntxw » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:38 pm

The TAO/Triton buoys are ramping up. 1C areas is expanding on the eastern end of Nino 3.4. Comparison of early month to latest below.

Image
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9707 Postby Twisted-core » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:08 am

Image
https://imgur.com/fzQv86P

Image
https://imgur.com/5OFPCJL

I would not put the cart before the horse.Still a long way off any bona fide elnino.
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9708 Postby euro6208 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:25 am

If this year is shaping up to be an el nino year i just can't imagine what next year will be. An even angrier el nino? :eek:
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9709 Postby hamburgerman7070 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:24 pm

I have a question. If we get any type of niño for the fall and winter, is it too early to tell where the tropical forcing could be? I think central or west based is best for a better chance at a decent winter.
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9710 Postby NotSparta » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:10 pm

hamburgerman7070 wrote:I have a question. If we get any type of niño for the fall and winter, is it too early to tell where the tropical forcing could be? I think central or west based is best for a better chance at a decent winter.


Indications are suggesting west-based Niño, such as QBO
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9711 Postby Kingarabian » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:04 pm

NotSparta wrote:
hamburgerman7070 wrote:I have a question. If we get any type of niño for the fall and winter, is it too early to tell where the tropical forcing could be? I think central or west based is best for a better chance at a decent winter.


Indications are suggesting west-based Niño, such as QBO


So far with all the early season EPAC activity, the rising air branch of the Walker cell currently is setup more east.
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9712 Postby Macrocane » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:48 pm

euro6208 wrote:If this year is shaping up to be an el nino year i just can't imagine what next year will be. An even angrier el nino? :eek:


Probably Neutral, it's rare to have 2 consecutive El Niños.
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9713 Postby Eric Webb » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:02 pm

Macrocane wrote:
euro6208 wrote:If this year is shaping up to be an el nino year i just can't imagine what next year will be. An even angrier el nino? :eek:


Probably Neutral, it's rare to have 2 consecutive El Niños.


It's not rare at all, in fact for weak-moderate first year El Ninos in the last 150 years, the probability of said El Nino continuing on into year 2 is actually about 50-60%. For strong-super El ninos it is rare but not dynamically impossible. A majority of proxy records show El Ninos lasting as long as 5-7 years and being up to twice the amplitude of 1997-98 just in the past few thousand years. As the climate warms, the stretching of the Hadley Cells makes the large-scale climate less conducive to El Ninos, hence Ninos were actually more frequent during the little Ice Age and relatively less frequent (even than today) during the medieval and Roman warming periods. The range of ENSO variability and potential interannual scenarios is much broader than you think and even a long 150-year ENSO record would portend.
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9714 Postby Eric Webb » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:15 pm

I had a chance to talk via skype earlier this afternoon about ENSO, the PMM, and the Atlantic and Eastern Pacific hurricane seasons w/ Mark Sudduth, certainly worth watching!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpjnOGket0c
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9715 Postby Kingarabian » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:32 pm

Some robust strengthening of the subsurface pool in the last 5 days:
Image
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9716 Postby Eric Webb » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:56 pm

Kingarabian wrote:Some robust strengthening of the subsurface pool in the last 5 days:
Image


Right on cue with the WWB last week in the eastern Pacific. This is exactly why I urged Larrywx not to be concerned at all over the apparent and very minor decrease (if any) in OHC in the past few weeks, it's already virtually recovered.
Image
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9717 Postby Eric Webb » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:13 pm

This year is going to be pretty much on schedule w/ the timing of the lower frequency, quasi-stationary atmospheric NINO-esque forcing if the EPS is to be believed.

 https://twitter.com/antmasiello/status/1009590832213774336




 https://twitter.com/antmasiello/status/1009593899030073345


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Re: ENSO Updates

#9718 Postby hamburgerman7070 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:51 pm

Hi Eric. Is it too early to tell what type niño it will be if we have one for fall/winter? I've heard west based and east based. Imo, we can usually get some idea pretty soon unless things drastically change I guess?
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9719 Postby hamburgerman7070 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:54 pm

Kingarabian wrote:
NotSparta wrote:
hamburgerman7070 wrote:I have a question. If we get any type of niño for the fall and winter, is it too early to tell where the tropical forcing could be? I think central or west based is best for a better chance at a decent winter.


Indications are suggesting west-based Niño, such as QBO


So far with all the early season EPAC activity, the rising air branch of the Walker cell currently is setup more east.


East based isn't good for snow/ice in the southern plainz/mid south I don't think. More active jet stream (stj). :grr:
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Re: ENSO Updates

#9720 Postby euro6208 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:43 am

Eric Webb

We all know el ninos increases activity and probrably more threat to land. What are your thoughts on the West Pacific typhoon season?
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