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caneflyer
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#61 Postby caneflyer » Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:56 pm

wxman57 wrote:
HURAKAN wrote:When will RECON investigate TD 8?


A better question would be SHOULD recon investigate TD 8 tomorrow afternoon? It's obvious that this system is not going to threaten any U.S. interests, so what benefit to the U.S. would a recon mission provide? Will Bermuda pay for recon to fly out tomorrow? Why should U.S. tax dollars go to a recon mission? If the storm continues heading for the U.K., as some storms as tropical as TD 8 is now have, should the U.S. continue flying recon into the storm, perhaps based out of Bermuda or the U.K.?

Even putting aside the argument that TD 8 is clearly no threat to the U.S., and a recon mission would not benefit the U.S., would it even help Bermuda? Bermuda is already under a TS warning, expecting TS force winds within 24 hours. By the time the recon plane got there, the center would not be very far southwest of Bermuda, and the island could already be in tropical storm-force wind. So could a recon mission tomorrow afternoon provide any essential information for making a good weather forecast for Bermuda? In any case, the time for the recon mission was today (if at all), not after TS force winds may already be hitting Bermuda.


Reconnaissance flights are routinely flown for the benefit of other WMO Region IV nations. Under the WMO, the NHC is a Regional Specialized Meteorological Center, with obligations to all WMO RA-IV nations, not just to U.S. citizens.

In your second paragraph, it sounds like you believe that once the warning goes up, reconnaissance data are no longer necessary. This argument would seem to apply to U.S. warnings as well. In fact, why not just stop issuing advisories once the warnings go up?

I think there are benefits to continued data collection. Wouldn't it be useful, even with just hours to spare, to know that the cyclone had abruptly strengthened, or weakened? I'm sure that certain actions would be taken on the island in either event. Or what if the system moves more slowly than forecast (after all, the UKMET and NOGAPS were slower to the east than the NHC forecast). Perhaps by 18Z tomorrow the system is still a considerable distance away.
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#62 Postby cycloneye » Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:59 pm

WTNT33 KNHC 022359
TCPAT3
BULLETIN
TROPICAL DEPRESSION EIGHT INTERMEDIATE ADVISORY NUMBER 1A
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL
8 PM AST TUE AUG 02 2005

...OUTER RAINBANDS OF TROPICAL DEPRESSION BEGINNING TO SPREAD OVER
BERMUDA...

A TROPICAL STORM WARNING IS IN EFFECT FOR BERMUDA. A TROPICAL STORM
WARNING MEANS THAT TROPICAL STORM CONDITIONS ARE EXPECTED WITHIN
THE WARNING AREA WITHIN THE NEXT 24 HOURS.

FOR STORM INFORMATION SPECIFIC TO YOUR AREA... PLEASE MONITOR
PRODUCTS ISSUED BY YOUR LOCAL WEATHER OFFICE.

AT 8 PM AST... 0000Z... THE CENTER OF TROPICAL DEPRESSION EIGHT WAS
ESTIMATED NEAR LATITUDE 28.8 NORTH... LONGITUDE 68.8 WEST OR ABOUT
335 MILES... 540 KM... SOUTHWEST OF BERMUDA.

THE DEPRESSION IS MOVING TOWARD THE NORTH NEAR 8 MPH... 13 KM/HR. A
TURN TOWARD THE NORTH-NORTHEAST IS EXPECTED DURING THE NEXT 24
HOURS.

MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS ARE NEAR 35 MPH... 55 KM/HR... WITH HIGHER
GUSTS. THE DEPRESSION IS FORECAST TO BECOME A TROPICAL STORM LATER
TONIGHT OR EARLY WEDNESDAY.

ESTIMATED MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE IS 1009 MB... 29.80 INCHES.

RAINFALL ACCUMULATIONS OF 3 TO 5 INCHES ARE POSSIBLE IN BERMUDA IN
ASSOCIATION WITH THE DEPRESSION.

REPEATING THE 8 PM AST POSITION...28.8 N... 68.8 W. MOVEMENT
TOWARD...NORTH NEAR 8 MPH. MAXIMUM SUSTAINED
WINDS... 35 MPH. MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE...1009 MB.

THE NEXT ADVISORY WILL BE ISSUED BY THE NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER AT
11 PM AST.

FORECASTER KNABB

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#63 Postby cycloneye » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:12 pm

NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER NORTH ATLANTIC OBJECTIVE AIDS FOR

TROPICAL DEPRESSION EIGHT (AL082005) ON 20050803 0000 UTC

...00 HRS... ...12 HRS... ...24 HRS... ...36 HRS...
050803 0000 050803 1200 050804 0000 050804 1200

LAT LON LAT LON LAT LON LAT LON
BAMD 28.8N 68.8W 30.7N 68.0W 32.4N 66.2W 34.1N 63.4W
BAMM 28.8N 68.8W 30.4N 68.2W 31.6N 66.4W 32.4N 64.2W
A98E 28.8N 68.8W 29.6N 68.6W 31.0N 67.3W 32.3N 64.8W
LBAR 28.8N 68.8W 30.1N 68.2W 31.4N 66.9W 32.9N 65.2W
SHIP 30KTS 35KTS 41KTS 46KTS
DSHP 30KTS 35KTS 41KTS 46KTS

...48 HRS... ...72 HRS... ...96 HRS... ..120 HRS...
050805 0000 050806 0000 050807 0000 050808 0000

LAT LON LAT LON LAT LON LAT LON
BAMD 35.9N 59.5W 40.5N 45.7W 44.1N 30.6W 44.5N 22.9W
BAMM 32.9N 61.7W 33.4N 56.4W 33.9N 55.8W 34.0N 54.5W
A98E 33.9N 61.7W 35.9N 55.0W 36.6N 50.6W 38.9N 45.3W
LBAR 34.8N 62.9W 39.2N 55.5W 43.6N 46.5W .0N .0W
SHIP 49KTS 49KTS 42KTS 32KTS
DSHP 49KTS 49KTS 42KTS 32KTS

...INITIAL CONDITIONS...
LATCUR = 28.8N LONCUR = 68.8W DIRCUR = 0DEG SPDCUR = 6KT
LATM12 = 26.8N LONM12 = 69.2W DIRM12 = 11DEG SPDM12 = 14KT
LATM24 = 24.4N LONM24 = 69.6W
WNDCUR = 30KT RMAXWD = 75NM WNDM12 = 25KT
CENPRS = 1009MB OUTPRS = 1014MB OUTRAD = 175NM SDEPTH = D
RD34NE = 0NM RD34SE = 0NM RD34SW = 0NM RD34NW = 0NM
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#64 Postby WindRunner » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:14 pm

49kts - That's a little lower than the last run.
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#65 Postby clfenwi » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:15 pm

Was about to post the model output... and note the across the board drop in the intensity output, especially in the later periods.
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#66 Postby Derek Ortt » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:20 pm

persistence parameter


in the previous run, the storms winds were upped from 25 to 30KT. Here, they were maintained constant
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#67 Postby cycloneye » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:24 pm

02/2345 UTC 28.5N 68.8W ST1.5/1.5 92 -- Atlantic Ocean


SSD dvorak consider this system as being subtropical as the ST shows.
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#68 Postby senorpepr » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:31 pm

cycloneye wrote:02/2345 UTC 28.5N 68.8W ST1.5/1.5 92 -- Atlantic Ocean


SSD dvorak consider this system as being subtropical as the ST shows.


This is from AFWA's METSAT Dept...

TPNT KGWC 022357
A. TROPICAL DEPRESSION EIGHT
B. 02/2331Z (61)
C. 28.8N/8
D. 68.4W/8
E. SIX/GOES12
F. T1.5/1.5/STT: S0.0/03HRS -02/2331Z-
G. IR/EIR

47A/ PBO PTLY XPSD LLCC/ANMTN. LLCC IS LOCATED 18NM FM NRST
DG AREA GIVING A DT OF 3.0. SCNDRY CIRC LOCATED NR 27.2N/72.5W
HAS ACQUIRED CNVCTN NR CNTR OVR LAST 3HRS. FT IS BASED ON PT.

AODT: T1.8 (SHEAR)

LAURENTI



They have it as tropical rather than subtropical. Looks like your classic, "six to one, half a dozen to another" situation.
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#69 Postby clfenwi » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:36 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:persistence parameter


in the previous run, the storms winds were upped from 25 to 30KT. Here, they were maintained constant


I thought that parameter was done as a 12 hour change, not 6...
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#70 Postby wxman57 » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:44 pm

cycloneye wrote:02/2345 UTC 28.5N 68.8W ST1.5/1.5 92 -- Atlantic Ocean


SSD dvorak consider this system as being subtropical as the ST shows.


Of course it's subtropical. It's a giant upper low with thunderstorms on the east side. However, I picked 20 named storms, 11 hurricanes, and 7 major hurricanes for the office pool, so I'm pulling for some type of "Harvey" out of this. ;-)
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#71 Postby Derek Ortt » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:52 pm

I'll have to check on that to make sure. I thought it was 6, but I'll verify
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#72 Postby Matt-hurricanewatcher » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:52 pm

It is not a upper low. Yes theres a ULL close to the southwest of it. But it has a LLC at the surface. Even so more subtropical like. The convection is fairly deep tonight. In as it moves away from the ULL over time it will become fully tropical. Also if it stays below 35 north it has to around 48 west to become just that.

So yes its a cyclone of some kind. Is it subtropical you could say its possible. But theres also things that shows tropical.
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#73 Postby wxman57 » Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:13 pm

Matt-hurricanewatcher wrote:It is not a upper low. Yes theres a ULL close to the southwest of it. But it has a LLC at the surface. Even so more subtropical like. The convection is fairly deep tonight. In as it moves away from the ULL over time it will become fully tropical. Also if it stays below 35 north it has to around 48 west to become just that.

So yes its a cyclone of some kind. Is it subtropical you could say its possible. But theres also things that shows tropical.


Oh, I didn't say there wasn't a surface circulation, of course there is (unlike Friday when some here wanted it classified as a TD). It's just that it doesn't appear very tropical (warm core, convection over center, energy from latent heat of condensation, etc.). It's a weak surface low beneath an upper-level low, not too much different from the lows that form in that region during the winter. But it is over warm water, and convection could fire over the LLC if the wind shear would let up. So it could become a little more tropical over the next 24-48 hours before it races off to the northeast and out to sea over cooler water.
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#74 Postby cycloneye » Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:40 pm

WTNT23 KNHC 030239
TCMAT3
TROPICAL DEPRESSION EIGHT FORECAST/ADVISORY NUMBER 2
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL AL082005
0300Z WED AUG 03 2005

A TROPICAL STORM WARNING IS IN EFFECT FOR BERMUDA. A TROPICAL STORM
WARNING MEANS THAT TROPICAL STORM CONDITIONS ARE EXPECTED WITHIN
THE WARNING AREA WITHIN THE NEXT 24 HOURS.

TROPICAL DEPRESSION CENTER LOCATED NEAR 29.4N 68.5W AT 03/0300Z
POSITION ACCURATE WITHIN 60 NM

PRESENT MOVEMENT TOWARD THE NORTH-NORTHEAST OR 15 DEGREES AT 8 KT

ESTIMATED MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE 1009 MB
MAX SUSTAINED WINDS 30 KT WITH GUSTS TO 40 KT.
12 FT SEAS..150NE 175SE 0SW 75NW.
WINDS AND SEAS VARY GREATLY IN EACH QUADRANT. RADII IN NAUTICAL
MILES ARE THE LARGEST RADII EXPECTED ANYWHERE IN THAT QUADRANT.

REPEAT...CENTER LOCATED NEAR 29.4N 68.5W AT 03/0300Z
AT 03/0000Z CENTER WAS LOCATED NEAR 28.9N 68.7W

FORECAST VALID 03/1200Z 30.4N 67.9W
MAX WIND 40 KT...GUSTS 50 KT.
34 KT...100NE 100SE 0SW 75NW.

FORECAST VALID 04/0000Z 31.7N 66.2W
MAX WIND 45 KT...GUSTS 55 KT.
34 KT...100NE 100SE 25SW 75NW.

FORECAST VALID 04/1200Z 32.8N 63.9W
MAX WIND 40 KT...GUSTS 50 KT.
34 KT...100NE 100SE 25SW 75NW.

FORECAST VALID 05/0000Z 33.6N 61.1W
MAX WIND 35 KT...GUSTS 45 KT.
34 KT...100NE 100SE 25SW 75NW.

FORECAST VALID 06/0000Z 34.0N 57.0W
MAX WIND 35 KT...GUSTS 45 KT.
34 KT...100NE 100SE 25SW 75NW.

EXTENDED OUTLOOK. NOTE...ERRORS FOR TRACK HAVE AVERAGED NEAR 250 NM
ON DAY 4 AND 325 NM ON DAY 5...AND FOR INTENSITY NEAR 20 KT EACH DAY

OUTLOOK VALID 07/0000Z 34.5N 54.0W
MAX WIND 30 KT...GUSTS 40 KT.

OUTLOOK VALID 08/0000Z 35.0N 51.0W
MAX WIND 30 KT...GUSTS 40 KT.

REQUEST FOR 3 HOURLY SHIP REPORTS WITHIN 300 MILES OF 29.4N 68.5W

NEXT ADVISORY AT 03/0900Z

FORECASTER KNABB

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#75 Postby Matt-hurricanewatcher » Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:44 pm

I'm sorry for jumping the gun with 93L. It looked fairly good for a time there. There was some spin in the low level cloud field. After Dennis,Charley you kind of start jumping when you see something like it. The enviroment was not favable for it.
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#76 Postby cycloneye » Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:46 pm

TROPICAL DEPRESSION EIGHT ADVISORY NUMBER 2
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL
11 PM AST TUE AUG 02 2005

...DEPRESSION MOVING NORTH-NORTHEASTWARD... EXPECTED TO STRENGTHEN
AND TURN NORTHEASTWARD TOWARD BERMUDA...

A TROPICAL STORM WARNING IS IN EFFECT FOR BERMUDA. A TROPICAL STORM
WARNING MEANS THAT TROPICAL STORM CONDITIONS ARE EXPECTED WITHIN
THE WARNING AREA WITHIN THE NEXT 24 HOURS.

FOR STORM INFORMATION SPECIFIC TO YOUR AREA... PLEASE MONITOR
PRODUCTS ISSUED BY YOUR LOCAL WEATHER OFFICE.

AT 11 PM AST... 0300Z... THE CENTER OF TROPICAL DEPRESSION EIGHT WAS
LOCATED NEAR LATITUDE 29.4 NORTH... LONGITUDE 68.5 WEST OR ABOUT
295 MILES... 480 KM... SOUTHWEST OF BERMUDA.

THE DEPRESSION IS MOVING TOWARD THE NORTH-NORTHEAST NEAR 9 MPH... 15
KM/HR. A TURN TOWARD THE NORTHEAST IS EXPECTED DURING THE NEXT 24
HOURS.

MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS ARE NEAR 35 MPH... 55 KM/HR... WITH HIGHER
GUSTS. SOME STRENGTHENING IS FORECAST DURING THE NEXT 24 HOURS...
AND THE DEPRESSION COULD BECOME A TROPICAL STORM OVERNIGHT.

ESTIMATED MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE IS 1009 MB...29.80 INCHES.

RAINFALL ACCUMULATIONS OF 3 TO 5 INCHES ARE POSSIBLE IN BERMUDA IN
ASSOCIATION WITH THE DEPRESSION.

REPEATING THE 11 PM AST POSITION...29.4 N... 68.5 W. MOVEMENT
TOWARD...NORTH-NORTHEAST NEAR 9 MPH. MAXIMUM SUSTAINED
WINDS... 35 MPH. MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE...1009 MB.

AN INTERMEDIATE ADVISORY WILL BE ISSUED BY THE NATIONAL HURRICANE
CENTER AT 2 AM AST FOLLOWED BY THE NEXT COMPLETE ADVISORY AT 5 AM
AST.

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#77 Postby cycloneye » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:02 pm

TCDAT3
TROPICAL DEPRESSION EIGHT DISCUSSION NUMBER 2
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL
11 PM EDT TUE AUG 02 2005

THE UPPER LEVEL LOW TO THE SOUTHWEST OF THE DEPRESSION CONTINUES TO
IMPOSE SOUTHERLY SHEAR... LEAVING MUCH OF THE LOW LEVEL CIRCULATION
EXPOSED. THE PRIMARY CONCENTRATION OF CONVECTION HAS BEEN
PERSISTING NORTH OF THE CENTER... WITH A DISJOINTED BAND OF
CONVECTION EXTENDING TO THE SOUTHEAST. LACKING ANY OTHER SOURCE OF
RELEVANT DATA THIS EVENING... THE CURRENT INTENSITY HINGES ON
SUBJECTIVE INTERPRETATION OF GOES INFRARED IMAGERY. THE LATEST
DVORAK INTENSITY ESTIMATES ARE 25 KT FROM TAFB BASED ON THE CURVED
BANDING... AND 25 KT FROM SAB AND AFWA BASED ON THE SUBTROPICAL
APPEARANCE OF THE CLOUD PATTERN. IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THE MAXIMUM
WINDS ARE ACTUALLY NEAR TROPICAL STORM STRENGTH SINCE THE LOW LEVEL
CENTER APPEARS TO BE JUST A SHORT DISTANCE SOUTH OF THE
CONCENTRATED CONVECTION... PERHAPS WORTHY OF A T2.5/35 KT DVORAK
CLASSIFICATION USING A SHEAR PATTERN. HOWEVER... THERE IS
SUFFICIENT UNCERTAINTY IN THE LOCATION OF THE LOW LEVEL CENTER TO
COMPROMISE BETWEEN ALL OF THESE POSSIBILITIES AND MAINTAIN THE
INTENSITY AT 30 KT.

THE INITIAL MOTION ESTIMATE IS 015/8... CONSTRUCTED WITH THE HELP OF
A 01Z SSMI OVERPASS... WHICH A LITTLE SLOWER THAN THE PREVIOUS
ADVISORY AND WITH A SLIGHTLY GREATER NORTHEASTERLY COMPONENT. THIS
APPEARS TO BE THE START OF THE TURN TOWARD THE NORTHEAST AHEAD OF A
MIDLATITUDE SHORTWAVE TROUGH EMERGING OFF THE UNITED STATES EAST
COAST. EVEN AFTER THAT TROUGH PASSES BY THE TROPICAL CYCLONE...
PERSISTENT WESTERLIES SHOULD CONTINUE TO INDUCE AN EASTWARD MOTION
LATER IN THE FORECAST PERIOD. THE DYNAMICAL MODELS INITIALIZE AND
FORECAST THE CIRCULATION OF THE DEPRESSION IN A VARIETY OF WAYS...
NONE OF WHICH APPEAR TO BE COMPLETELY CONSISTENT WITH RECENT MOTION
TRENDS. THE NEW OFFICIAL FORECAST IS A LITTLE SLOWER THAN AND TO
THE RIGHT OF THE PREVIOUS ADVISORY... MAINLY TO BLEND WITH THE
SLOWER GFDL AND NOGAPS SOLUTIONS.

THE UPPER LEVEL LOW TO THE SOUTHWEST OF THE DEPRESSION IS EXPECTED
TO ALSO MOVE EAST BUT SHEAR OUT DURING THE NEXT 2-3 DAYS... BUT
THIS WILL LEAVE THE TROPICAL CYCLONE IN A WESTERLY SHEAR
ENVIRONMENT SOMEWHAT PROHIBITIVE FOR TOO MUCH STRENGTHENING.
HOWEVER...THE SHEAR COULD BE JUST WEAK ENOUGH... AND THE OCEAN WARM
ENOUGH... TO ALLOW THE SYSTEM TO REMAIN A TROPICAL STORM THROUGH
ABOUT DAY THREE. THE OFFICIAL FORECAST IS SIMILAR TO THE PREVIOUS
ADVISORY AND IS A COMPROMISE BETWEEN THE GFDL AND SHIPS GUIDANCE.


FORECASTER KNABB

FORECAST POSITIONS AND MAX WINDS

INITIAL 03/0300Z 29.4N 68.5W 30 KT
12HR VT 03/1200Z 30.4N 67.9W 40 KT
24HR VT 04/0000Z 31.7N 66.2W 45 KT
36HR VT 04/1200Z 32.8N 63.9W 40 KT
48HR VT 05/0000Z 33.6N 61.1W 35 KT
72HR VT 06/0000Z 34.0N 57.0W 35 KT
96HR VT 07/0000Z 34.5N 54.0W 30 KT
120HR VT 08/0000Z 35.0N 51.0W 30 KT


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#78 Postby Swimdude » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:21 pm

Our storms, though there have been many, this year, seem to be slow forming into huge mosters...
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#79 Postby Andrew92 » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:24 pm

Swimdude wrote:Our storms, though there have been many, this year, seem to be slow forming into huge mosters...


Just wait....I think we're in for a long ride in just a few more weeks.

For now, let's track this depression and see if it becomes Harvey.

-Andrew92
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#80 Postby HURAKAN » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:41 pm

Until RECON gets there, the NHC will have a hard time to estimate the intensity of this system if this subtropical-looking pattern continues. We need at leat a ship near the center!
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