MED: QENDRESA - Strong Subtropical Storm near Malta/Sicily

[DanieleItalyRm]

I'm not in agreement at all

[Alyono]

I cannot agree either

Explain how this was different than 2009s Grace, except for the slightly longer time scale that Grace as tropical or subtropical

[DanieleItalyRm]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uY3sMRNdzb4

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fbH8ULCj-pk

[HURAKAN]

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tcr/AL092009_Grace.pdf

The extratropical cyclone that developed into tropical storm Grace had more time to transition into a tropical cyclone. I do agree that this system in the Mediterranean had many characteristics of a tropical cyclone, including small size and strongest winds near the center, but it was too transient to have been a tropical cyclone, in my opinion.

[djones65]

So, if a tropical wave develops into a storm just before moving inland and then dissipates 18-24 hours later it should be "too transient" to be considered a tropical storm?

Is that your position?

Your previous post above shows that Grace was extra tropical for several days prior to tropical transition. Why does the extra tropical portion of its life matter? The transition to tropical was rather rapid within 24 hours. Once it was designated as a "low" instead of extra tropical.

I remain confused why your opinion is that it was not tropical?

I am just curious.

[somethingfunny]

Infrared loop showing the eye east of Sicily.

http://www.ssec.wisc.edu/data/volcano/etna.gif

My unprofessional and uneducated opinion is that this just doesn't look like something produced by tropical forces. Way too much clear air too close to the center in all quadrants, spun up from absolutely nothing resembling a surface low into an almost immediate eye like feature, and its' collapse didn't leave much of anything behind like you would normally see in a tropical system. Upper level clouds are moving around in all sorts of different directions. It looks cold-core, though I haven't seen the surface temperature observations.

I think that what HURAKAN is saying about the system's transience is that it just popped up from nothing and disappeared into nothing, which (for something as powerful as this 994mb low was) is more typical of a mid latitude non tropical low.

It might have been subtropical. Does anybody have any data showing if this was actually warm core or not?

[JonathanBelles]

When did time of existence become a requirement for a tropical cyclone? Sustained convection, sure...but existence, no.

[DanieleItalyRm]

Once, was talk of limit water temperature (26.5°C). Today we speak of a time limit?

It seems to me absurd to speak of life limit for a tropical classification. This Storm during 24h, and dead for landfall over Sicily coast. If it would not be on earth, would continue its development and would last even another day.. Moreover, it wasn't in a supportive environment.

Tropical cyclone: A warm-core cyclone, originating over tropical or subtropical waters, with organized deep convection and a closed surface wind circulation about a well-defined center

In 2011, NOAA Sab was triggered tracking of tropical cyclones for the Mediterranean, and in November 2011 he cataloged the first (Tropical Storm 01M). Following, The NOAA SAB doesn't track tropical cyclones in the Mediterranean, due to lack of funds. If the NOAA SAB was still active today and have catalogued this storm, you would not have anything to say, as you have not had anything to say in November 2011.

Even TS 01M is derived from an extratropical cyclone, and did not have a long life in tropical cyclone status.

Even TC Karl 1980, Charly 1980, Alberto 1988, Michael 2000, Vince 2005, Epsilon 2005, Grace 2009, Chris 2012 and other derived from an extratropical cyclone.

The same process:
tropical transition - extratropical cyclone--> subtropical cyclone--> tropical cyclone
The Storm caused damages and floods in Lampedusa, Lipari, Linosa, Malta and over extremly coast of Sicily during the night:
Malta Baia di San Paolo 153 Km/h - 979 Hpa
Lampedusa 135 Km/h 992 Hpa
Malta Lequa 106 Km/h - 984 Hpa
Linosa 95 Km/h - 982 Hpa
Catania 95 Km/h - 996 Hpa (50 km dal centro)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uY3sMRNdzb4

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fbH8ULCj-pk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKWDlnGLXho

Sicily Radar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk1PXStcIuc































THIS NOT UFFICIAL TRACK,

[somethingfunny]

Where are the temperature readings?

[DanieleItalyRm]

SST was +22,5¤C on 7 November. Like the sea surface development tc Grace (20_C) and much Warmer of 20¤c When development hurricane Karl in 1980.

[somethingfunny]

I mean air temperature readings. Was it warm core?

[DanieleItalyRm]

This an evident warm core. in fact, this structure and convection is possible only in warm core cyclone system:

[TheAustinMan]

Satellite Services Division RGB/RBTOP enhancement loops for the cyclone in question.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8k8oAUD9So

[TheEuropean]

I Think this system was at least subtropical, may be near tropical. For a short time it had a warm core, winds very near center were near hurricane strength. This system shoud be added to the official list for 2014.

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