Democrat Ethics - for your edification.

[Anonymous]

Not arguing with you, Will. Just pointing out the fact that you say it's wrong to take the life of another human. Therefore, according to your argument, it is wrong to abort (kill)a baby.

I believe that it is wrong to kill a human being because they're aware, feel, have emotions, etc.
From what I've seen, babies do not fit this category...and thus I don't think of them as people. They're potential people.

You bring up a good point, although I cannot commit one way or another as to whether or not unborn babies are conscious/aware. I do agree, however, that if it were somehow proven beyond a reasonable doubt (which seems unlikely to ever happen) that babies are not aware, it would make abortion seem much less wrong to me. That's not to say go completely wild to the point where women are getting abortions as routinely as dental checkups, but mistakes do happen, and in many cases the abortion prevents a life of hardship and suffering that often results from children being born to unwilling parents.

But again, IMHO it might be a little presumptuous to feel any sort of confidence that fetuses are not aware (as is it for those who are claiming they are 100% sure they are aware).

What about the horror stories of dr.'s performing abortions and the babies moving to avoid whatever instrument the dr is using? Are those myths?
To say that a baby cannot feel is not true. We may not have "scientific proof" that they have no feelings, but just ask any parent. They'll tell you that even newborns are aware of their surroundings and they do have feelings. They recognize their parents' voices. I can say this to be truth because I have 2 kids and I've witnessed these things.

As for the second part of your post "a mistake"...yeah, people make mistakes, but the way to correct that mistake is NOT by killing the baby. First of all, the woman should have used protection, either on her own or demanded her partner use protection. Making a "mistake" is NOT an excuse to kill a baby.
She should be made to have the baby and give it to someone who will love and care for it, if she doesn't want to take the responsibility for her ADULT act.
Who gives us the right to say "killing a baby might prevent it from the hardhips of having parents who don't want it"? The parents should have thought about that before they decided to have unprotected sex. Again, the humane thing to do is to give the baby to someone who wants it.

Well you do make some good points; in response to the second paragraph, I didn't phrase that quite the way I wanted to. The "hardships" I was referring to were those of the child itself, not the irresponsible parents; what I'm saying is that if the couple are unwilling to be parents to the point where they desire abortion in the first place, they more than likely will not be stellar parents and as a result the child will suffer. Adoption is an option, and sometimes a very good one at that, but it certainly has its negative points as well.

I am kind of with Will here with regards to the abortion issue in general: I am not inclined to take a strong position one way or the other. Personally, I would be very uncomfortable seeing my child aborted even if it was conceived unintentionally, but when it comes to the law I am "passively" pro-choice because I feel there ARE situations where abortion is the best option, and in those cases the parents need to have that option open. Certainly only the most extreme fundamentalists would have a problem with abortion in the case of a mother's health being at risk; it is my opinion that anyone who opposes those particular abortions is a selfish bigot, and regardless of the fetus's awareness it is the fully conscious mother who should be the one to decide whether her own life or the baby's will take precedence IMHO.

[Skywatch_NC]

Not arguing with you, Will. Just pointing out the fact that you say it's wrong to take the life of another human. Therefore, according to your argument, it is wrong to abort (kill)a baby.

I believe that it is wrong to kill a human being because they're aware, feel, have emotions, etc.
From what I've seen, babies do not fit this category...and thus I don't think of them as people. They're potential people.

You bring up a good point, although I cannot commit one way or another as to whether or not unborn babies are conscious/aware. I do agree, however, that if it were somehow proven beyond a reasonable doubt (which seems unlikely to ever happen) that babies are not aware, it would make abortion seem much less wrong to me. That's not to say go completely wild to the point where women are getting abortions as routinely as dental checkups, but mistakes do happen, and in many cases the abortion prevents a life of hardship and suffering that often results from children being born to unwilling parents.

But again, IMHO it might be a little presumptuous to feel any sort of confidence that fetuses are not aware (as is it for those who are claiming they are 100% sure they are aware).

What about the horror stories of dr.'s performing abortions and the babies moving to avoid whatever instrument the dr is using? Are those myths?
To say that a baby cannot feel is not true. We may not have "scientific proof" that they have no feelings, but just ask any parent. They'll tell you that even newborns are aware of their surroundings and they do have feelings. They recognize their parents' voices. I can say this to be truth because I have 2 kids and I've witnessed these things.

As for the second part of your post "a mistake"...yeah, people make mistakes, but the way to correct that mistake is NOT by killing the baby. First of all, the woman should have used protection, either on her own or demanded her partner use protection. Making a "mistake" is NOT an excuse to kill a baby.
She should be made to have the baby and give it to someone who will love and care for it, if she doesn't want to take the responsibility for her ADULT act.
Who gives us the right to say "killing a baby might prevent it from the hardhips of having parents who don't want it"? The parents should have thought about that before they decided to have unprotected sex. Again, the humane thing to do is to give the baby to someone who wants it.

Well you do make some good points; in response to the second paragraph, I didn't phrase that quite the way I wanted to. The "hardships" I was referring to were those of the child itself, not the irresponsible parents; what I'm saying is that if the couple are unwilling to be parents to the point where they desire abortion in the first place, they more than likely will not be stellar parents and as a result the child will suffer. Adoption is an option, and sometimes a very good one at that, but it certainly has its negative points as well.

I am kind of with Will here with regards to the abortion issue in general: I am not inclined to take a strong position one way or another. Personally, I would be very uncomfortable seeing my child aborted even if it was conceived unintentionally, but when it comes to the law I am "passively" pro-choice because I feel there ARE situations where abortion is the best option, and in those cases the parents need to have that option open. Certainly only the most extreme fundamentalists would have a problem with abortion in the case of a mother's health being at risk; it is my opinion that anyone who opposes those particular abortions is a selfish bigot, and regardless of the fetus's awareness it is the fully conscious mother who should be the one to decide whether her own life or the baby's will take precedence IMHO.

Yes, adoption can have it's negative points at times...but IS ALWAYS better than murder.

[Anonymous]

Yes, adoption can have it's negative points at times...but IS ALWAYS better than murder.

Well I think that all depends on your perspective. Coming at it from a Christian point of view -- which I assume applies to you -- you are completely correct; human life created by God is of the utmost importance and abortion goes completely against the Bible's teachings, and therefore adoption would always be a better option. From my point of view, on the other hand, human life is very important, but on the condition that it is enjoyable and free. A non-existent life is IMO better than a life of suffering and hardship; I would rather not be conscious at all than to be a conscious, living being who is subject to an unenjoyable life. Applying this to the idea of abortion, I would say that there are some cases -- crack babies come to mind -- where the fetus, if born, is almost certainly going to experience a life that is unpleasant to the point where nonexistence is a better option. The problem, of course, is that this is all subjective and there is no way to regulate abortions where the baby "could" have a good life, so this is basically just my idealistic opinion on how things would be if I made every decision for every person, as opposed to how I think things should actually be in our country. Again, this is why I am somewhat pro-choice but not strongly so.

Just keep in mind that not everyone who isn't a flaming pro-life advocate has taken their position solely because they think everyone should be able to have insane amounts of sex with no consequences... there are other factors involved for some of us.

[timNms]

I wonder if anyone knows of the statistics relating to the number of women who actually have had to either chose to give birth and die or abort and live? While I see your point of view, I still believe that like it or not, the choice was made when the woman had unprotected sex. She shouldn't have the option to "fix" her mistake by taking the innocent life of a baby.
I also understood what you were saying by "hardships" but there again, I disagree. Adoption, as Eric put it, is a much better option than killing the baby.
I have some good friends living in PA who can't have children. However, they've been introduced to a lady who is due to deliver in September. She has been searching for a family to adopt her baby. It turns out that she has a brain tumor and there is nothing that can be done to save her life. She could have chosen to abort, but thankfully, she's giving her child an opportunity to live.