TD #4 East Atlantic,Comments,Sat Pics,Models Thread #2

This is the general tropical discussion area. Anyone can take their shot at predicting a storms path.

Moderator: S2k Moderators

Forum rules

The posts in this forum are NOT official forecasts and should not be used as such. They are just the opinion of the poster and may or may not be backed by sound meteorological data. They are NOT endorsed by any professional institution or STORM2K. For official information, please refer to products from the National Hurricane Center and National Weather Service.

Help Support Storm2K
Message
Author
MWatkins
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 2574
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2002 7:51 pm
Location: SE Florida
Contact:

#201 Postby MWatkins » Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:59 pm

btangy wrote:The seeds to the weakness in the ridge that all the models seems to be latching onto are already planted:

Here's the height of the dynamic tropopause in potential temperature coordinates as analyzed by the 18Z GFS:

http://www.atmos.albany.edu/facstaff/rm ... 082118.jpg

If one is not familiar with PV/tropopause maps, the 200mb vorticity from CIMSS shows a similar feature:

http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic/real- ... g8vor1.GIF

There's a large positively tilted 'PV tail' extended down from the mid-latitudes that is the source of all these upper level lows you see spinning around in the W Atlantic.

The 72 hour prog 18Z GFS shows the PV tail fragmenting which each magenta region representing an upper level low:

http://moe.met.fsu.edu/tcgengifs//gfs/2 ... 50PV12.png

The anomaly in the C Atlantic is projected to be quite strong and deep, so that its mid-level reflection will provide enough of a weakness in the ridge to eventually pull TD 4 north if it strengthens and becomes a deeper system. You can see this in the 500mb vorticity at 120hours for example @ ~55W,27N:

http://moe.met.fsu.edu/tcgengifs//gfs/2 ... vort20.png

All of the GFS ensemble members, even in the S portion of the ensemble envelope spread forecast recurvature:

http://wind.mit.edu/~btangy/TC/fig/storm1_18_ms3.png


This is a tremendous post and very, very insightful technical analysis.

Hard to argue against anything you've presented here...thanks for taking the time to put his out there...

MW
0 likes   
Updating on the twitter now: http://www.twitter.com/@watkinstrack

User avatar
SouthFloridawx
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 8346
Age: 46
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:16 am
Location: Sarasota, FL
Contact:

#202 Postby SouthFloridawx » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:28 am

If one is not familiar with PV/tropopause maps, the 200mb vorticity from CIMSS shows a similar feature:

http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic/real- ... g8vor1.GIF


Ok so let me get this right....

The tail end of the upper tropospheric trough is what we're looking at as far as eroding the ridge.

I have been looking at the 200mb vorticity on the maps for the past few months now so it has become more easy for me to identify what is there and on WV imagry.
http://hadar.cira.colostate.edu/ramsdis ... _ls_0.html

You can see it about 60w and 30n.

If this is an upper level feature right?
How would that affect the mid to low level ridge in the Atlantic?

Don't get me wrong... I'm not arguing with you just trying to learn.

It the upper trough is plain as day on WV.

Do these UTT'S exisist also in the mid levels?

Bottom line of this is basicaly as I'm trying to understand it.


If the models are correct with this feature eroding the Ridge and TD04 strengthens we will see recurvature.

If the UTT does not weaken the ridge and the system remains in the low levels to lower mid levels we won't see recurvature.
0 likes   

willjnewton

#203 Postby willjnewton » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:36 am

can someone please, please, show me a updated Infrared and water vapor Imagery on TD 4 thats on this threaD, and it has to be updated recently, NOT old or anything like that okay, thankyou
0 likes   

willjnewton

#204 Postby willjnewton » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:37 am

sorry my computer is going crazy or slow here can someone delete the extra two questions okay, thankyou
0 likes   

User avatar
NONAME
Category 1
Category 1
Posts: 373
Age: 35
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:15 am
Location: Where the Wind Blows

#205 Postby NONAME » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:40 am

Post Remove by me.
Last edited by NONAME on Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
0 likes   

willjnewton

#206 Postby willjnewton » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:42 am

I will be patient, its just my computers been acting up
0 likes   

User avatar
NONAME
Category 1
Category 1
Posts: 373
Age: 35
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:15 am
Location: Where the Wind Blows

#207 Postby NONAME » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:42 am

Ok Sorry you had a computer problem i think you can delete them yourself by pressing the x button by the edit and quote buttons.
0 likes   

User avatar
wxmann_91
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 8013
Age: 34
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:49 pm
Location: Southern California
Contact:

#208 Postby wxmann_91 » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:43 am

SouthFloridawx wrote:
If one is not familiar with PV/tropopause maps, the 200mb vorticity from CIMSS shows a similar feature:

http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic/real- ... g8vor1.GIF


Ok so let me get this right....

The tail end of the upper tropospheric trough is what we're looking at as far as eroding the ridge.

I have been looking at the 200mb vorticity on the maps for the past few months now so it has become more easy for me to identify what is there and on WV imagry.
http://hadar.cira.colostate.edu/ramsdis ... _ls_0.html

You can see it about 60w and 30n.

If this is an upper level feature right?
How would that affect the mid to low level ridge in the Atlantic?

Don't get me wrong... I'm not arguing with you just trying to learn.

It the upper trough is plain as day on WV.

Do these UTT'S exisist also in the mid levels?

Bottom line of this is basicaly as I'm trying to understand it.


If the models are correct with this feature eroding the Ridge and TD04 strengthens we will see recurvature.

If the UTT does not weaken the ridge and the system remains in the low levels to lower mid levels we won't see recurvature.


The upper trough only affects the upper levels. So, if TD 4 remains weak, it will not feel the influence of it.

Thing is, GFS is going all gung-ho on this system. Is this affecting the rest of the models? The shallow BAM is right in there with the rest of the Consensus... but in reality... what should happen with a shallow system is it should stay westbound through the period, perhaps feeling the influence of a deeper weakness at the end of the period.
0 likes   

willjnewton

#209 Postby willjnewton » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:44 am

wheres the x buttons and edit and quote buttons
0 likes   

User avatar
NONAME
Category 1
Category 1
Posts: 373
Age: 35
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:15 am
Location: Where the Wind Blows

#210 Postby NONAME » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:44 am

T-numbers are at 2.5 now on the http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic/adt/ Site.
0 likes   

Brent
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 38107
Age: 37
Joined: Sun May 16, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Tulsa Oklahoma
Contact:

#211 Postby Brent » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:44 am

willjnewton wrote:wheres the x buttons and edit and quote buttons


At the top right of each post... to the right of the date and time posted. It'll only show up on your own posts.
0 likes   
#neversummer

User avatar
NONAME
Category 1
Category 1
Posts: 373
Age: 35
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:15 am
Location: Where the Wind Blows

#212 Postby NONAME » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:45 am

Those buttons are at the top right corner of your post by the post subject and the time posted.
0 likes   

User avatar
southerngale
Retired Staff
Retired Staff
Posts: 27418
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 1:27 am
Location: Southeast Texas (Beaumont area)

#213 Postby southerngale » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:47 am

willjnewton wrote:sorry my computer is going crazy or slow here can someone delete the extra two questions okay, thankyou

Done.


NONAME wrote:Ok Sorry you had a computer problem i think you can delete them yourself by pressing the x button by the edit and quote buttons.

Generally, if you see anyone with the exact same post 2 or 3 times in a row, and in this case, 5 times, it's an accident, not impatience.

You can only delete your own post if it's the last post in the thread. Once there's a reply, you can only edit your own post. I've deleted the extra ones.
0 likes   

storm4u
Category 2
Category 2
Posts: 651
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:26 am
Location: agawam, ma
Contact:

#214 Postby storm4u » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:49 am

NONAME wrote:T-numbers are at 2.5 now on the http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic/adt/ Site.


Its must be a tropical storm by now!?
0 likes   

the_winds_that_sheared_me
Tropical Storm
Tropical Storm
Posts: 132
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:15 pm
Location: Orange Park, Fla

#215 Postby the_winds_that_sheared_me » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:49 am

wxmann_91 wrote:
The upper trough only affects the upper levels. So, if TD 4 remains weak, it will not feel the influence of it.

Thing is, GFS is going all gung-ho on this system. Is this affecting the rest of the models? The shallow BAM is right in there with the rest of the Consensus... but in reality... what should happen with a shallow system is it should stay westbound through the period, perhaps feeling the influence of a deeper weakness at the end of the period.


This is what the Canadian as well as the UKMET show-This staying around TD- or weak TS status and just NE of the Islands in 144 hrs.

00Z Canadian
http://moe.met.fsu.edu/cgi-bin/cmctc2.c ... =Animation

00Z UKMET
http://moe.met.fsu.edu/cgi-bin/ukmtc2.c ... =Animation
0 likes   

User avatar
RattleMan
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 1218
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:14 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

#216 Postby RattleMan » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:58 am

storm4u wrote:
NONAME wrote:T-numbers are at 2.5 now on the http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic/adt/ Site.


Its must be a tropical storm by now!?


Those are for Ileana, not TD4.

EDIT: Never mind, there's CI#s of 2.5 there
Last edited by RattleMan on Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
0 likes   

User avatar
SouthFloridawx
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 8346
Age: 46
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:16 am
Location: Sarasota, FL
Contact:

#217 Postby SouthFloridawx » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:58 am

the_winds_that_sheared_me wrote:
wxmann_91 wrote:The upper trough only affects the upper levels. So, if TD 4 remains weak, it will not feel the influence of it.
Thing is, GFS is going all gung-ho on this system. Is this affecting the rest of the models? The shallow BAM is right in there with the rest of the Consensus... but in reality... what should happen with a shallow system is it should stay westbound through the period, perhaps feeling the influence of a deeper weakness at the end of the period.

This is what the Canadian as well as the UKMET show-This staying around TD- or weak TS status and just NE of the Islands in 144 hrs.
00Z Canadian
http://moe.met.fsu.edu/cgi-bin/cmctc2.c ... =Animation
00Z UKMET
http://moe.met.fsu.edu/cgi-bin/ukmtc2.c ... =Animation



Image

Obviously here we can see the UKMET is keeping this system weak and under the influence of the low level steering flow. I would think that the only trouble with this forecast is going to be intesity.

Unfortunately this is the worst thing that we have going for us as Intensity forecasts are not very good at all.


BOTTOM LINE:

Strong System Recurve sooner.

Weak system stays in the low level flow recurves later.

Or actually option 3 as Stewart mentioned if this thing is not above 20 north in 4 days the ridge will build back and it will be stuck.
0 likes   

User avatar
SouthFloridawx
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 8346
Age: 46
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:16 am
Location: Sarasota, FL
Contact:

#218 Postby SouthFloridawx » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:59 am

RattleMan wrote:
storm4u wrote:
NONAME wrote:T-numbers are at 2.5 now on the http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic/adt/ Site.

Its must be a tropical storm by now!?

Those are for Ileana, not TD4.


http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic/adt/odt1.html

---- Current Analysis -----
Date : 22 AUG 2006 Time : 051500 UTC
Lat : 12:21:32 N Lon : 23:40:15 W


CI# /Pressure/ Vmax
2.5 /1005.0mb/ 35.0kt
0 likes   

User avatar
RattleMan
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 1218
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:14 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

#219 Postby RattleMan » Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:01 am

SouthFloridawx wrote:
RattleMan wrote:
storm4u wrote:
NONAME wrote:T-numbers are at 2.5 now on the http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic/adt/ Site.

Its must be a tropical storm by now!?

Those are for Ileana, not TD4.


http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic/adt/odt1.html

---- Current Analysis -----
Date : 22 AUG 2006 Time : 051500 UTC
Lat : 12:21:32 N Lon : 23:40:15 W


CI# /Pressure/ Vmax
2.5 /1005.0mb/ 35.0kt


Yeah, I figured that out and tried to delete my post, but you had already replied (with the models) so I couldn't.
0 likes   

User avatar
Hyperstorm
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 1500
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 3:48 am
Location: Ocala, FL

#220 Postby Hyperstorm » Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:11 am

More northward motion has decidedly begun over the past several hours while ever so slightly bursting.

It looks like this one has 15N written all over it by later on Tuesday...
0 likes   


Return to “Talkin' Tropics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: dl20415, Google [Bot], Pas_Bon, TampaWxLurker and 54 guests