Texas Winter 2024-2025

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sphelps8681
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5881 Postby sphelps8681 » Thu Jan 16, 2025 1:44 pm

BigB0882 wrote:
sphelps8681 wrote:
TomballEd wrote:
But the ICON drops half an inch liquid equivalent of sleet and ice and would make MLK a 4 day weekend for me. Wishc**ting, but the new Canadian has a similar sensible weather result. Of course I trust the GFS more than the Canadian and German models, but it doesn't forecast what I want it to forecast. Been seeing people dismissing GFS runs as trash, sometimes with reasons, but usually because it doesn't show the result we want.

I'm 60, but I will still wi**cast about no school for a day or two in a school with very low test scores, drug use and frequent fights.


I am 60 today my birthday. I also work at school and everyone is praying for a long weekend. I took today for my bday. We do 4 day week so we all are off tomorrow and Monday. Tuesday would be icing on the cake. I am in Lumberton north of 1-10 from Beaumont.


Happy birthday! I grew up in Beaumont and now live in Baton Rouge. I’m also a teacher who is rooting for an extra day off. Lol


Yea I know right. Yesterday at school everyone had a pep in their step and just so excited about the weather to come. LOL. We are all like ya lets do this.
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5882 Postby Quixotic » Thu Jan 16, 2025 1:48 pm

Ntxw wrote:MJO looking to weaken once it reaches the MC and perhaps quickly pass and return to the better phases. Long way out though, so there are definitely favorable lower frequency forcing at play.

https://i.imgur.com/62uFoYs.png

https://i.imgur.com/3NFvOOj.png


I’ll take the member that skips the COD and goes straight into phase 1 again.
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5883 Postby Charleswachal » Thu Jan 16, 2025 1:52 pm

Since we are talking about birthdays, my birthday is Wednesday. I would love to have some snow on my 34th birthday!
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5884 Postby orangeblood » Thu Jan 16, 2025 1:59 pm

CMC Ensembles are not backing down, sticking to its guns and has for several runs now!! GEFS seems really confused. Bottom line, we typically see a decent trend towards models converging by now but that is clearly not the case with this one

Image

Image
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5885 Postby TheAustinMan » Thu Jan 16, 2025 2:00 pm

To amplify or not to amplify is the question. Problem is, the vorticity associated with the possible secondary shortwave to be is still south of the Aleutian Islands. Until it gets onshore Saturday/Sunday, we will probably continue to see very drastic back-and-forths and spread in the guidance. Unsurprisingly, the NBM probabilistic spread (the difference between the 75th and 25th percentile, that is, the span of the middle 50%) for temperatures Tuesday and Wednesday is larger than the spread 10 days from now. A lot hinges on whether the secondary reinforcing cold can materialize.

Image




Image
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5886 Postby Texas Snow » Thu Jan 16, 2025 2:07 pm

TheAustinMan wrote:To amplify or not to amplify is the question. Problem is, the vorticity associated with the possible secondary shortwave to be is still south of the Aleutian Islands. Until it gets onshore Saturday/Sunday, we will probably continue to see very drastic back-and-forths and spread in the guidance. Unsurprisingly, the NBM probabilistic spread (the difference between the 75th and 25th percentile, that is, the span of the middle 50%) for temperatures Tuesday and Wednesday is larger than the spread 10 days from now. A lot hinges on whether the secondary reinforcing cold can materialize.

https://i.imgur.com/AgrO2H5.png




https://i.imgur.com/DLEmGnX.png



That is an outstanding visual description. Thank you for taking the time to post.
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5887 Postby TheAustinMan » Thu Jan 16, 2025 2:45 pm

One of my favorite tools that's really come to prominence in the last decade or two is ensemble clustering. Basically, if we take all the members from the various ensembles, can we identify groups of similar outputs? For example, when dealing with a trough, is there a way we can naturally (mathematically) group ensemble members in a manner that distinguishes different possible scenarios?

Turns out, yes, and it can help demonstrate how differences in one meteorological parameter (usually something like the 500mb heights) influences another (like temperatures, snowfall, etc.). This graphic's a little older, run off of the 00z suites, but makes it very clear how different setups produce different results!

Examining Clusters
This was the cluster analysis for 00z today valid Tuesday, with the clustering based on how the ensemble members depicted 500mb heights. Each little insert image shows how each cluster differs from the average of all the ensembles put together. For example, in Cluster 1, we see that it has higher heights over the Four Corner region. This suggests the Cluster 1 scenario involves weaker troughing. Compare that with Cluster 2, which shows lower heights in that region, suggesting that's a depiction of a scenario involving a more amplified trough. Cluster 3 is sort of similar to Cluster 1, with even less amplification, and Cluster 4 is sort of similar to Cluster 2, with perhaps a slower trough.

So, as we've been able to glean from the guidance so far, there are two major camps: more shortwave amplification versus less shortwave amplification. We could probably have figured out after looking at enough models, but it's nice seeing all the ensembles together in one spot so we can readily spot the different scenarios. There's also some additional information, too. Those numbers and percentages at the top tell you how many members of each model suite (C for Canadian, G for GEFS, E for ENS, T for everyone put together) fall into each camp. That can tell you whether there's truly a dominant consensus scenario in the guidance, or if a particular ensemble suite happens to be out to lunch.In this case, notice how the GEFS (G) was quite a bit more pushy about a weaker trough (cluster 3) than the other suites, or how the GEPS was more insistent about a slower, highly amplified trough (cluster 4).

Image

The Consequences of Clusters
Now that we have our groups and clusters of ensemble members, we can ask: how does each scenario affect temperature and precipitation? I posted how earlier about stronger shortwave amplification enables a reinforcing surge of cold air. From the deterministic guidance, we can sort of see that by flipping between models, but with ensemble cluster analysis, that becomes a whole lot easier.

Notice how scenarios 1 and 3 lead to warmer temperatures over the central US on Tuesday compared to the total ensemble average, and check how scenarios 2 and 4 lead to colder temperatures. That lines up with our intuition about stronger amplification (scenarios 2 and 4) lead to colder temperatures!

Image

And how about stronger troughing leading to better moisture delivery (and weaker troughing suppressing humidities)? Well...

Image

We'll revisit this when the 12z ensemble guidance has been fully loaded and ready to go.
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5888 Postby Ralph's Weather » Thu Jan 16, 2025 2:57 pm

Pivotal has rates at 17:1 for I-20 for this event. ICON if it showed that may would be even higher with an even better moisture profile. On those models basically looking at a near saturated 500-925mb at around -15C and a surface in the upper teens. Absolutely perfect scenario. Hard to believe but if it happens we only need 0.7" QPF to see a foot of snow.
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5889 Postby txtwister78 » Thu Jan 16, 2025 3:25 pm

Afternoon discussion from NWS Austin/San Antonio. Basically, leaning toward Euro solution right now.

The most hazardous cold weather occurs from Sunday night through
Tuesday night. Daytime highs will trend in the 30s and lower 40s
while the overnight lows will range from the teens across the Hill
Country to the low to mid 20s elsewhere. Minimum wind chills drop
down into the teens with a few single digit values possible across
portions of the Southern Edwards Plateau and Hill Country. While a
long duration freeze exceeding 36+ hours still remains within the
possibility, especially across the Hill Country, the latest high
temperature forecast does indicate that the daytime highs at least
briefly rise above the freezing mark each day. Nonetheless, given
the hazardous weather, expect for the likely issuance of Cold
Weather Advisories as we go through this stretch. Help promote and
practice cold weather safety (The 4 P's of cold weather along with
proper space heater operation).

Let's advance on to the uncertainty regarding the moisture and the
precipitation chances across South-Central Texas from late Monday
through Tuesday. The two weather systems that are generating the
most uncertainty are an upper level disturbance diving south-
southeastward from the Pacific Northwest and the development of a
coastal surface trough along/off Deep South Texas. The deterministic
GFS and a majority of its ensemble members are showing a more
progressive and less amplified upper level disturbance. This is a
drier and less impactful event across the region as it leads to a
weaker coastal trough and stunts the moisture farther to the south
into mainly South Texas. This also is a warmer solution with the
clouds even clearing out to the north. Now onto the contrast, the
Canadian and it's ensemble suite, it's slower and much more
amplified with the upper level disturbance. This will also support
stronger coastal low development and a farther north-northwestward
transport of moisture across the region. This would be a colder and
more impactful event across the region, if it were to verify. The
ECMWF and the majority of it's ensemble members are sitting in the
middle of the two solutions and near the median of the model
consensus in regards to the 500 mb pattern. This will be where our
latest forecast will lean towards.

As a result of the uncertainty in the general weather pattern as
highlighted above, low to medium (20 to 40%) confidence remains for
precipitation across South-Central Texas during late Monday through
Tuesday, with better confidence farther to the south with closer
proximity to that coastal low/trough. For our region, QPF will be
quite light, mainly below a tenth of an inch. A mix of precipitation
types will be possible. Thermodynamic profile analysis shows that
the warm nose aloft will be small or non-existent farther towards
the north where snow could be the most favored. The warm nose then
becomes stronger farther south. A wintry mix could align across
portions of the I-10 corridor and into San Antonio. Then farther
south, a rain/freezing rain mix could be more prevalent. The
precipitation chances look to shut off by Wednesday but there still
remains uncertainty within this range as well and expect for
temperatures to slowly modify but remain below average.
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5890 Postby Ntxw » Thu Jan 16, 2025 3:35 pm

orangeblood wrote:CMC Ensembles are not backing down, sticking to its guns and has for several runs now!! GEFS seems really confused. Bottom line, we typically see a decent trend towards models converging by now but that is clearly not the case with this one

https://images.weatherbell.com/model/cmc-ensemble-all-avg/tx/precip_6hr_ptype_multimember_panel/1737028800/1737460800-JyJ4ev72oeE.png

https://images.weatherbell.com/model/gfs-ensemble-all-avg/tx/precip_6hr_ptype_multimember_panel/1737028800/1737460800-ohszW3AKuho.png


WPC highlight the area from C-TX to Tolendo Bend for risks of snow from QPF and temps. North Texas and Southern Oklahoma will need to watch the northern stream, these high ratios and the storm path is actually a pretty good one for us and often the side of the storm(s) that overperform. Persistent snows even if light, with ratios can add up quickly.

The big qpf will be in S-SE Texas where all kinds precip types will go on. Pretty rare system where cold is pressed across the country. The divergence this close to the game is telling.
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5891 Postby Quixotic » Thu Jan 16, 2025 4:39 pm

TheAustinMan comes in and drops really good posts outta nowhere. Good stuff.
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5892 Postby cheezyWXguy » Thu Jan 16, 2025 4:41 pm

18z icon isn’t the best case scenario the 12z was, but isn’t bad as most of the state still sees some frozen precip but amounts are lighter for the most part.

It has the trough dig even further west, but strings it out as it transits the sw US. It seems that the best scenario for a winter storm is if the trough’s western extent lies right along the west coast, and if the upper low off the west coast is captured near southern California.
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5893 Postby MississippiWx » Thu Jan 16, 2025 4:43 pm

cheezyWXguy wrote:18z icon isn’t the best case scenario the 12z was, but isn’t bad as most of the state still sees some frozen precip but amounts are lighter for the most part.

It has the trough dig even further west, but strings it out as it transits the sw US. It seems that the best scenario for a winter storm is if the trough’s western extent lies right along the west coast, and if the upper low off the west coast is captured near southern California.


Yep. Gonna have to sweat this one out a few more days I’m afraid.
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5894 Postby sphelps8681 » Thu Jan 16, 2025 4:55 pm

Charleswachal wrote:Since we are talking about birthdays, my birthday is Wednesday. I would love to have some snow on my 34th birthday!



Well Happy Birthday to you!! Have a great all that you want.
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5895 Postby Tireman4 » Thu Jan 16, 2025 4:57 pm

Winter Weather Update from HGX

For Monday night into Tuesday morning, another upper level trough
is expected to move into the Southern Plains and this will
provide additional lift across Southeast TX. We can expect rain
chances to increase, which will also increase the potential for
wintry precipitation for much of the region. The overnight hours
will be very cold with lows in the low to mid 20s over the Brazos
Valley and Piney Woods region, and in the upper 20s to low 30s
elsewhere. Wintry precipitation may continue throughout the day
Tuesday as the trough axis approaches Southeast TX. Please be
aware that icing can occur on roads and bridges. Thus, proceed
with caution during your commute, and if icy roads are being
reported, avoid travel if possible. Now, there are still some
inconsistencies with model guidance, thus, this forecast can have
a few modifications as we approach the time of the event.

Once the axis moves overhead, sometime Tuesday evening into early
Tuesday night, rain chances decrease as dry air moves in. Expect
conditions to remain cold Tuesday night into Wednesday morning
with lows once again in the low 20s to low 30s inland. Looking
into wind chill temperatures, we are currently forecasting wind
chills in the teens to low 20s from the night to mid morning hours
starting Sunday night into Wednesday. Cold Weather Advisories and
Hard Freeze Warning may be needed early next week.
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5896 Postby Ralph's Weather » Thu Jan 16, 2025 5:00 pm

cheezyWXguy wrote:18z icon isn’t the best case scenario the 12z was, but isn’t bad as most of the state still sees some frozen precip but amounts are lighter for the most part.

It has the trough dig even further west, but strings it out as it transits the sw US. It seems that the best scenario for a winter storm is if the trough’s western extent lies right along the west coast, and if the upper low off the west coast is captured near southern California.

So close to a big hit but it barely misses the phase. still a quick few inches from northern stream energy for the I-20 corridor. This is a very reasonable solution. We can dream of the Canadian perfect dig but a bit of lift and 20F surface will do us well.
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5897 Postby Lagreeneyes03 » Thu Jan 16, 2025 5:02 pm

Ntxw wrote:
orangeblood wrote:CMC Ensembles are not backing down, sticking to its guns and has for several runs now!! GEFS seems really confused. Bottom line, we typically see a decent trend towards models converging by now but that is clearly not the case with this one

https://images.weatherbell.com/model/cmc-ensemble-all-avg/tx/precip_6hr_ptype_multimember_panel/1737028800/1737460800-JyJ4ev72oeE.png

https://images.weatherbell.com/model/gfs-ensemble-all-avg/tx/precip_6hr_ptype_multimember_panel/1737028800/1737460800-ohszW3AKuho.png


WPC highlight the area from C-TX to Tolendo Bend for risks of snow from QPF and temps. North Texas and Southern Oklahoma will need to watch the northern stream, these high ratios and the storm path is actually a pretty good one for us and often the side of the storm(s) that overperform. Persistent snows even if light, with ratios can add up quickly.

The big qpf will be in S-SE Texas where all kinds precip types will go on. Pretty rare system where cold is pressed across the country. The divergence this close to the game is telling.


So are you saying nearly the whole state could get winter precipitation? Trauma responses incoming...lol
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5898 Postby ThunderSleetDreams » Thu Jan 16, 2025 5:03 pm

Lagreeneyes03 wrote:
Ntxw wrote:
orangeblood wrote:CMC Ensembles are not backing down, sticking to its guns and has for several runs now!! GEFS seems really confused. Bottom line, we typically see a decent trend towards models converging by now but that is clearly not the case with this one

https://images.weatherbell.com/model/cmc-ensemble-all-avg/tx/precip_6hr_ptype_multimember_panel/1737028800/1737460800-JyJ4ev72oeE.png

https://images.weatherbell.com/model/gfs-ensemble-all-avg/tx/precip_6hr_ptype_multimember_panel/1737028800/1737460800-ohszW3AKuho.png


WPC highlight the area from C-TX to Tolendo Bend for risks of snow from QPF and temps. North Texas and Southern Oklahoma will need to watch the northern stream, these high ratios and the storm path is actually a pretty good one for us and often the side of the storm(s) that overperform. Persistent snows even if light, with ratios can add up quickly.

The big qpf will be in S-SE Texas where all kinds precip types will go on. Pretty rare system where cold is pressed across the country. The divergence this close to the game is telling.


So are you saying nearly the whole state could get winter precipitation? Trauma responses incoming...lol



This episode reminds me of a mix of NYE 2000 and 1997 gulf coast ice storm. Different dynamics at play in each region, but I do think we could see a lot of the state see winter precip fall out of the sky.
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5899 Postby HurricaneBrain » Thu Jan 16, 2025 5:06 pm

GFS is BACK :cold:
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Re: Texas Winter 2024-2025

#5900 Postby Stratton23 » Thu Jan 16, 2025 5:07 pm

GFS caved big time to the Euro/ CMC
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