I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

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Re:

#61 Postby Frank P » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:01 am

Derek Ortt wrote:what part of MS were you in in relation to the eyewall of Elena, Frank. It may mean a large difference in winds

Also, remember that the wind damage is not uniform, it is in streaks. Surge though, is most certainly uniform


Derek, I got all aspects of the eye wall... the eye passed directly overhead and was moving off to the WNW when it went inland... Prior to the eye wall I've never seen the MS sound pushed so far out... you could't even see the water line... the winds were screaming out of the north.. then the eye came... I was outside the entire time watching all the birds flying around... then the winds came directly out of the south.. they went from calm to 100 plus in a matter of minutes.. I was watching the surge rise from no where to be seen to the sea wall also within minutes.. it was amazing how fast it came up

I would think that we did get parts of the RFQ where Kevin and I live.
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#62 Postby Aslkahuna » Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:52 pm

The Horodner video of Elena shows that perfectly with a totally clear eye and 100% eyewall-one observer said it looked just like a recon flight photo. Then you see the backside wall coming in fast off the water and a very short time later winds are up well over 100. I had a similar experience with TY Irma in the Philippines watching the backside charging in. I was outside cleaning up from the front side and when the winds began to pick up we all went inside and no more than 5 minutes later were in full typhoon conditions.

Steve
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#63 Postby Frank P » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:14 pm

Aslkahuna wrote:The Horodner video of Elena shows that perfectly with a totally clear eye and 100% eyewall-one observer said it looked just like a recon flight photo. Then you see the backside wall coming in fast off the water and a very short time later winds are up well over 100. I had a similar experience with TY Irma in the Philippines watching the backside charging in. I was outside cleaning up from the front side and when the winds began to pick up we all went inside and no more than 5 minutes later were in full typhoon conditions.

Steve


It was my first experience in the eye of a hurricane... something that I always wanted to experience.. its was so awesome.. but like you said.. you could see the back wall of the eye as it approached, it was dark as all heck.. you knew something bad was going to happen and soon.... it was blowing so hard so fast that I would not let anyone go to the front of my house as I thought my Oak trees were going to blow over and crush it.. I was also worry about the surge as I think some of the predictions were about 12-14 feet and got somewhat concerned as it approached the sea wall... the angle of Elena approach limited the height of the surge to only about 8 feet and it was moving at a decent clip... but it blew extremely hard for several hours.. my best guess was 100-110 mph sustained winds with gusts to 125.... my whole house would shake violently during some of the gusts... it was my greatest hurricane adventure until the K storm... much more exciting than Camille because of the eye effect and you could see everything going on... lesson learned for all.. if you have to have a hurricane.. have one during the daylight hours... night hurricanes really suck...
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#64 Postby Ixolib » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:27 pm

Frank P wrote:It was my first experience in the eye of a hurricane... something that I always wanted to experience.. its was so awesome.. but like you said.. you could see the back wall of the eye as it approached, it was dark as all heck.. you knew something bad was going to happen and soon.... it was blowing so hard so fast that I would not let anyone go to the front of my house as I thought my Oak trees were going to blow over and crush it.. I was also worry about the surge as I think some of the predictions were about 12-14 feet and got somewhat concerned as it approached the sea wall... the angle of Elena approach limited the height of the surge to only about 8 feet and it was moving at a decent clip... but it blew extremely hard for several hours.. my best guess was 100-110 mph sustained winds with gusts to 125.... my whole house would shake violently during some of the gusts... it was my greatest hurricane adventure until the K storm... much more exciting than Camille because of the eye effect and you could see everything going on... lesson learned for all.. if you have to have a hurricane.. have one during the daylight hours... night hurricanes really suck...


Hey Frank - I'm with you point by point on your post. I was at the phone company on Howard between Seal and Hopkins and we also watched the eye come ashore. For me, too, that was the greatest adventure until Katrina, which turned out to be much more dread than it was excitement like with Elena (strange, I guess, that we went to the phone company for Elena but stayed home for Katrina!!!???). We left there sometime mid-morning and it was a real pain trying to make the few short blocks back to our house on Lafayette. Trees, wires, poles, stuff everywhere. But, NO SURGE damage. With Katrina, it was literally the opposite of Elena. Lots of water, little wind (comparatively speaking).

p.s. - what were YOU doing at this time on this date in 2005!!!! I think I was beginning to accept the fact that it was gonna be a loooooooong night!!
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#65 Postby Frank P » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:05 pm

Ixolib wrote:
Frank P wrote:It was my first experience in the eye of a hurricane... something that I always wanted to experience.. its was so awesome.. but like you said.. you could see the back wall of the eye as it approached, it was dark as all heck.. you knew something bad was going to happen and soon.... it was blowing so hard so fast that I would not let anyone go to the front of my house as I thought my Oak trees were going to blow over and crush it.. I was also worry about the surge as I think some of the predictions were about 12-14 feet and got somewhat concerned as it approached the sea wall... the angle of Elena approach limited the height of the surge to only about 8 feet and it was moving at a decent clip... but it blew extremely hard for several hours.. my best guess was 100-110 mph sustained winds with gusts to 125.... my whole house would shake violently during some of the gusts... it was my greatest hurricane adventure until the K storm... much more exciting than Camille because of the eye effect and you could see everything going on... lesson learned for all.. if you have to have a hurricane.. have one during the daylight hours... night hurricanes really suck...


Hey Frank - I'm with you point by point on your post. I was at the phone company on Howard between Seal and Hopkins and we also watched the eye come ashore. For me, too, that was the greatest adventure until Katrina, which turned out to be much more dread than it was excitement like with Elena (strange, I guess, that we went to the phone company for Elena but stayed home for Katrina!!!???). We left there sometime mid-morning and it was a real pain trying to make the few short blocks back to our house on Lafayette. Trees, wires, poles, stuff everywhere. But, NO SURGE damage. With Katrina, it was literally the opposite of Elena. Lots of water, little wind (comparatively speaking).

p.s. - what were YOU doing at this time on this date in 2005!!!! I think I was beginning to accept the fact that it was gonna be a loooooooong night!!


Two years ago this night George I evacuated my beach front home for the first time ever... over 31 years living on the beach and had never evacuated... it was such a wierd feeling, driving away from the house late that Sunday evening knowing that I probably would not have anything left to come back to.. I had considered leaving my two wonderful bassets at the house by themselves so I could evacuate to the Power Co with my wife on Saturday night... my son at Oxford would have nothing to do with that plan.. he told me if I didn't get the dogs out of the house he was coming down to get em... I didn't need him down on the coast with this monster coming in so I found a family member who would take me in along with the dogs on Benachi Street not from from your neighborhood...... and it was one of the best decisions that I have ever made in my life....

yeah George it was a looooooong night, and for many, its been a loooooooooong two years recovering....
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#66 Postby Opal storm » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:43 pm

I've always had my doubts about Camille being a category 5, and to be honest I think the 190mph rating is a bit ridiculous. The NGOM is never suitable for a storm to maintain category 5 strength to landfall.
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#67 Postby CrazyC83 » Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:26 pm

Here is my guess for the best track and intensities of Camille - NOTE: this is not an official document, just my guesses. Times are UTC.

August 13
0600 - 18.5 / 80.8 - 30 kt - 1008mb - Tropical depression
1200 - 18.6 / 81.1 - 30 kt - 1007mb
1800 - 18.8 / 81.5 - 30 kt - 1006mb
August 14
0000 - 18.9 / 81.8 - 35 kt - 1005mb - Tropical storm
0600 - 19.0 / 82.0 - 40 kt - 1003mb
1200 - 19.2 / 82.2 - 45 kt - 1002mb
1800 - 19.5 / 82.4 - 50 kt - 1000mb
August 15
0000 - 19.9 / 82.6 - 60 kt - 997mb
0600 - 20.4 / 82.8 - 70 kt - 989mb - Hurricane
1200 - 20.8 / 83.3 - 85 kt - 976mb
1800 - 21.2 / 83.9 - 100 kt - 966mb
2000 - 21.4 / 84.0 - 105 kt - 965mb - Landfall in western Cuba
August 16
0000 - 21.9 / 84.4 - 95 kt - 963mb
0600 - 22.7 / 84.8 - 105 kt - 961mb
1200 - 23.8 / 85.5 - 115 kt - 943mb
1800 - 24.6 / 86.1 - 125 kt - 927mb
August 17
0000 - 25.2 / 86.6 - 135 kt - 916mb
0600 - 26.0 / 87.4 - 150 kt - 905mb
1200 - 27.0 / 88.1 - 165 kt - 901mb - Maximum winds
1800 - 28.0 / 88.5 - 160 kt - 895mb - Minimum pressure
2330 - 29.1 / 89.0 - 145 kt - 904mb - Closest approach to mouth of Mississippi River
August 18
0000 - 29.3 / 89.0 - 145 kt - 905mb
0330 - 30.1 / 89.1 - 135 kt - 909mb - Landfall near Gulfport, MS
0600 - 30.5 / 89.3 - 120 kt - 924mb
1200 - 32.1 / 89.8 - 70 kt - 958mb
1800 - 33.8 / 90.0 - 45 kt - 982mb - Tropical storm
August 19
0000 - 35.3 / 90.1 - 30 kt - 990mb - Tropical depression
0600 - 36.2 / 89.6 - 30 kt - 992mb
1200 - 36.6 / 88.3 - 30 kt - 995mb
1800 - 36.7 / 86.3 - 25 kt - 998mb
August 20
0000 - 36.9 / 84.8 - 25 kt - 1000mb
0600 - 36.6 / 82.3 - 25 kt - 1001mb
1200 - 36.5 / 79.6 - 25 kt - 1001mb
1800 - 36.5 / 76.8 - 30 kt - 998mb
August 21
0000 - 36.4 / 74.4 - 35 kt - 997mb - Tropical storm
0600 - 36.4 / 72.1 - 45 kt - 994mb
1200 - 37.0 / 69.0 - 55 kt - 985mb
1800 - 37.7 / 65.8 - 60 kt - 982mb
August 22
0000 - 38.9 / 62.4 - 60 kt - 982mb
0600 - 40.4 / 59.5 - 55 kt - 984mb
1200 - 41.6 / 56.8 - 50 kt - 984mb - Extratropical
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#68 Postby MGC » Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:40 pm

Camille made landfall near Waveland, Mississippi. 36 years later the eye of Katrina passed over the same place. Pass Christian and Long Beach were victim of the RFQ. A 24 foot surge was recorded near Menge Avenue (about 1 mile from my house) during Camille......MGC
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#69 Postby Scorpion » Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:40 pm

Sounds very reasonable Crazy
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Re:

#70 Postby CrazyC83 » Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:43 pm

Scorpion wrote:Sounds very reasonable Crazy


The 909 pressure is undisputed as it was accurately measured. The winds I think got back down to Cat 4 (high end) at landfall due to land interaction and shallower heat content, and the start of an ERC.

I used the 901 Recon estimate (which is disputed but I think was accurate), the 905 estimate (accurate) and trends seen in recent years to make the peak intensity guess of 895.

I think the eye of Camille just barely missed the SE tip of Plaquemines Parish (the W eyewall touched it, hence a direct hit). At that point the 904 estimate is basically a guess using typical weakening patterns.
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#71 Postby Normandy » Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:31 am

Its just nearly impossible really to prove Camille's winds...

Rita had a pressure in the low 900's as a Cat 3 (Ask Derek about his flight into Rita where they struggled to find Cat4 winds).

It really could go either way.
If I were to make an estimate, i'd say Camille probably had 150 mph winds or so. And even if it was a Cat 5, hardly anybody likely saw these winds except a small area on the coast that experienced the RFQ.


EDIT:
BTW Crazy,
Really, Camille *could* have gotten lower than Wilma's pressure. If you take Katrina's weakening trend from 902 to 927, that yields a *potential* minimum pressure for Camille of 884 mbs....and considering Camille had a pinhole eye in the center of the GOM.... Just speculation there though.
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#72 Postby Javlin » Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:09 am

And lets remember guys every Cane is not just alike.You have got pressure,windfield,gradient and whatever effects of the CONUS weather patterns.I have been through Camille,Elena,Georges,Katrina and whatever little ones in between and no two were alike.They may be similiar in some regards for comparison sake but each had it's own personality.So all the comparisons is OK but its Monday quarterbacking as far as I am concerned.Kevin
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#73 Postby Ptarmigan » Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:35 am

I wouldn't be surprised if Camille had much lower pressure than what is recorded.
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#74 Postby HalloweenGale » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:03 pm

Which also begs the question: Was Etel, of 1960 a real category 5? I doubt the unisys page seriously.
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#75 Postby Ptarmigan » Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:55 pm

HalloweenGale wrote:Which also begs the question: Was Etel, of 1960 a real category 5? I doubt the unisys page seriously.


Ethel's central pressure is too high to be a Category 5. More like a 1.
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#76 Postby Windspeed » Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:55 pm

Windspeed wrote:I adamantly disagree that the maximum potential for intensity at landfall over the northern Gulf of Mexico is upper category three or winds between 125-130mph sustained. I do not want to call Derek out, but I will gladly debate him on this if he so chooses. I have seen Derek make this claim over the past few years and I consider his idea has some merit because often hurricanes do weaken on approach with the coastline along the northern Gulf of Mexico. However, each hurricane had a different circumstance with both its atmospheric environment and its source with oceanic heat potential. My main argument is that though the occurrence of landfalling category four and five hurricanes may be infrequent along the northern Gulf coastline, the consistency of category three landfalling storms should not be the basis for setting that region's maximum potential for intensity at category three. I want to show there is a range between tropical cyclone heat potential (TCHP) of the shallow shelf versus rate of motion of the core of an intense hurricane. Continental airmass is also highly influential on the intensity of landfalling hurricanes on the northern Gulf Coast. Category 4 and 5 landfalls are infrequent by their nature, but there is a window of opportunity along the northern Gulf Coast that will support category 5 landfalls. I believe such window is very dependent on three factors: 1) The shape and location of the Loop Current and any subsequent warm core ring (WRC) or "eddy;" 2) The temperature at the immediate surface (SST) right at the coastline and on the shallow shelf; and 3) the position of continental airmass and its moisture content with respect to the core of the hurricane before landfall. There is such a scenario I will try to quickly show that may have occurred during an intense system like Hurricane Camille and why I believe it will occur again.

The main focus of this post is heavily reliant on the constant evolution of the Gulf Loop and subsequent eddies or warm core rings that it sheds over the course of a six to eleven month cycle. Most of you should be familiar enough with how the main Gulf Loop current works so that I will not have to explain it in detail. You can go here, here and here to read up on how this current and subsequent eddies influenced the rapid intensification of three closely studied systems, Hurricane's Katrina, Rita and Opal.

If your connection is high speed, you should also watch the following animation of how the Loop Current generates warm core rings and eddies here.

Now I am quite certain that no one here, including Derek, denies the important relationship between the Gulf Loop and rapid intensification of systems that traverse that region of the GOM. However, I wish to point out that the location of the Loop Current before it sheds a new warm core ring (WCR) ring may dramatically increase the chances of a Cat 4-5 storm intensifying all the way up to landfall on the northern Gulf Coast. Keep in mind the Gulf Loop is ever changing and can often times exclude the region just south of the shallow shelf, or it can stretch from the straits all the way to the shelf wall varying in range and shape. I also feel that forward motion of the core of the cyclone is vital to this process once the storm moves off the most northern extension of the current and onto the shallow shelf right before landfall. In other words, I am trying to show that timing is everything...

Please review the following images:

This is how the current Gulf Loop and it's subsequent eddy look at present:

http://www7320.nrlssc.navy.mil/global_nlom32/navo/IASSP1.gif

The TCHP map reflects the location of these features:

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/phod/dataphod1/work/HHP/NEW/2007238go.jpg

As you can see, there is a WCR that has been shed from the Gulf Loop. This WCR eddy was shed over the past two months and is ripe for supporting any major hurricane that would potentially bare down on the Louisiana coastline. This WCR has a 26ºC isotherm well down around 100m with very high TCHP above. It is also important to note that the shallow shelf just south of Louisiana is over 30ºC.

The temps right at the surface and notice the 30+Cº currently on the shallow shelf:

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/phod/dataphod1/work/HHP/NEW/2007238gosst.png

Granted, this is shallow due to the presence of the shelf. This is also a contributing factor to why the SSTs are so high on the shallow shelf in July/August as the influences of daytime heat/land breeze from over land is the warmest of the year with direct sunlight insolation at its highest lagging from June; furthermore, an absence of cold fronts to cool the shallow shelf during those months. If an intense hurricane moved at a decent rate of speed over this region with favorable atmospheric support, I think the storm would be able to maintain Cat 4 to 5 intensity, such as Camille did in 1969. I also believe that Camille did not have time to be sufficiently weakened from the influences of a continental drier continental airmass, or, the core of the storm was embedded within a sufficiently moist environment to avoid erosion of the core. A slower moving or larger storm might well enough have upwelled the cooler waters of the shallow shelf, or entrained drier continental airmass quick enough to weaken on that same shallow shelf. I feel speed of motion of the core of a hurricane is much more important to maintain higher intensities over a region of high SST temps versus lower TCHP.

I suspect the shape of the Gulf Loop right before generation of new WCR eddy might open up the door in conjunction with 30º+C SSTs on the shallow shelf, providing an avenue for which a hurricane at Cat 4-5 intensity could maintain through landfall. Consider the following shape of the Gulf Loop such as this:

Image

Notice how far north the Loop Current is just as it is about the shed a new eddy. It is literally running right up to the shallow shelf just south of the Panhandle and Alabama. Imagine if you will, Dennis or Ivan having the luxury of the Loop Current with this shape and current SSTs right on the shallow shelf running at 30ºC. Yes, the maximum potential would be far greater than a 130mph hurricane. Factor in forward speed of a faster moving hurricane, I think you have the ingredients for a landfalling category four or five storm. Of course, there's more than oceanic heat. You also need favorable atmospheric conditions.

So what was really occurring during Camille?

Well unfortunately during Camille we did not have the remote sensing techniques to samples of the oceanic and atmospheric environment that compare to the technology we have available today. However, I can play out a plausible scenario....

Keep in mind this is purely speculation on my part, if only influenced in small part by the recon and satellite data available at the time. Camille moves away from the western tip of Cuba and enter the region of the Gulf Loop. The core is relatively small during initial rapid intensification phase as it begins move over the high TCHP of the Gulf Loop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hurricane_camille.jpg

Camille rapidly bombs with a very intense pinhole eye somewhat similar to Hurricane Charlie's rapid intensification; however, being over such high heat potential, the outer banding features are likewise able to consolidate and intensify rapidly around the core and the CDO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hurricane_Camille_16_aug_1969_2340Z.jpg

The overall size of Camille expands though the core remains very intense as the storm approaches the southeastern Louisiana coastal shelf. The Gulf Loop may have assisted in keeping Camille intense right up to the shelf as it may have shed or been in the process of shedding a WCR eddy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hurricane_Camille_17_aug_1969_1957Z.jpg

Also, being middle-to-late August, the shallow coastal shelf may have been over 30ºC in SST at the immediate surface. Camille's outer banding features consolidate a concentric eyewall and the core weakens somewhat between 24 and 12 hours prior to landfall; however, the inner core remains relatively small and stabilized or begins to re-intensify upon landfall. The core is also embedded in a sufficiently moist enough environment to ward off intrusion of continental airmass, Camille's smaller circulation may have helped itself along in this process. Also keep in mind, Camille was steaming NNW well inland into the upper Mississippi coastal plain before it slowed and turned into the westerlies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Camille_1969_track.png

Granted it was moving into a weakness, but it may not have had the effects of mid-level intrusion that can occur with a digging shortwave trough. Camille crosses the shallow shelf with a shallow 26º isotherm but at a sufficient rate of speed to avoid its own upwelling and makes landfall with sustained winds above 155mph. Granted, maybe it was not the absurd 190mph sustained winds that were probably more indicative of wind gusts; but I am confident Camille restrengthened or maintained such status prior to landfall to be at the category five classification. I am also confident we will see another category five hurricane make landfall on the Louisiana to Panhandle coastline again.


I believe Hurricane Felix has given me some supporting data on my previous comments. Felix moved over a region of very shallow 26ºC isotherm, representing low oceanic heat content at depth, prior to making landfall in Nicaragua. For nearly 1.2 degrees of longitude the small core of Felix traversed over low oceanic heat content at depth, yet continued rapid intensification reattaining category 5 intensity as it was making landfall. The core of Felix was not very large, and based on the premises of a shallow heat content not supporting Cat 5 intensity, such reasoning would contradict Felix not leveling off after leaving behind the last deep eddy it crossed between 78º and 81ºW longitude.

Image

Here is the point:

The shallow shelf was capable of continuing the re-intensification phase of Felix because, even though the 26º is very shallow, the first 10 meters were running around 30ºC. Furthermore, Felix was still moving at a fast enough rate to avoid upwelling any water below the 26º isotherm and shallow shelf bottom.

A shallow region of oceanic heat content (less than 30 meters 26ºC isotherm depth) CAN support a category five hurricane IF the immediate surface waters are over 28ºC and the core of the hurricane is relatively small and moving at a fast rate of speed.

Therefore, again, I believe the shallow shelf of the northern Gulf of Mexico can support a category five hurricane when the conditions are similar to what I described in my original post (i.e. Hurricane Camille).
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