Katrina H-Wind Analysis, marginal 3 at landfall

This is the general tropical discussion area. Anyone can take their shot at predicting a storms path.

Moderator: S2k Moderators

Forum rules

The posts in this forum are NOT official forecasts and should not be used as such. They are just the opinion of the poster and may or may not be backed by sound meteorological data. They are NOT endorsed by any professional institution or STORM2K. For official information, please refer to products from the National Hurricane Center and National Weather Service.

Help Support Storm2K
Message
Author
Opal storm

#601 Postby Opal storm » Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:29 pm

ivanhater wrote:i would like to know what data some of you are using to determine ivan gave pcola cat 1 conditions, i sure hope its not the station that lost power

Pensacola had borderline cat 1/2 sustained winds.The Pensacola Naval Air Station actually recorded gusts up to cat 3 before the wind sensor broke.
0 likes   

Derek Ortt

#602 Postby Derek Ortt » Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:32 pm

I believe Pensacola NAS kept power throughout. They did report gusts very close to cat 3
0 likes   

User avatar
Ivanhater
Storm2k Moderator
Storm2k Moderator
Posts: 11166
Age: 38
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:25 am
Location: Pensacola

#603 Postby Ivanhater » Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:38 pm

so it broke?
0 likes   

Scorpion

#604 Postby Scorpion » Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:47 pm

Pensacola likely only got Cat 1 winds. The wind damage was mostly superficial. Haven't seen any pictures of structures destroyed by wind.
0 likes   

timNms
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 1371
Age: 63
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2002 5:45 pm
Location: Seminary, Mississippi
Contact:

#605 Postby timNms » Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:52 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:simple,

Camielle likely was not a 5. HRD's reanalysis will get to Camielle in a couple of years


And you're basing this assumption on what? If Camille was not a 5, then Andrew must have been a weak 2. :)

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pastint.shtml

The Most Intense Hurricanes in the United States 1851-2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following table is derived from NOAA Technical Memorandum NWS TPC-1:

THE DEADLIEST, COSTLIEST, AND MOST INTENSE
UNITED STATES TROPICAL CYCLONES FROM 1851 TO 2004
(AND OTHER FREQUENTLY REQUESTED HURRICANE FACTS)
by
Eric S. Blake, Jerry D. Jarrell(retired), Max Mayfield, and Edward N. Rappaport
NOAA/NWS/ Tropical Prediction Center/National Hurricane Center
Miami, Florida

Christopher W. Landsea
NOAA/AOML/Hurricane Research Division
Miami, Florida


Click here to read the full report.

Table 4: The most intense mainland United States hurricanes, 1851-2004 (includes only major hurricanes at their most intense landfall). Addendum for Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and U.S. Virgin Islands. Rank Hurricane Year Category
(at landfall) Minimum
Pressure (mb) Minimum
Pressure (in)
1 Unnamed (FL Keys) 1935 5 892 26.35
2 Camille (MS, SE LA, VA) 1969 5 909 26.84
3 Andrew (SE FL, SE LA) 1992 5 922 27.23
0 likes   

User avatar
Ivanhater
Storm2k Moderator
Storm2k Moderator
Posts: 11166
Age: 38
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:25 am
Location: Pensacola

#606 Postby Ivanhater » Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:04 pm

Scorpion wrote:Pensacola likely only got Cat 1 winds. The wind damage was mostly superficial. Haven't seen any pictures of structures destroyed by wind.



im trying to get data, not scorpians opinion :roll: and i have a lot of pics to show you of "superficial damage" i wish they banned you for good before , anyway on with an intelligent debate.....i know the data is very limited on ivan so its not easy to say, thats why the debate has been going on for so long with researchers, but for the pcola area, are those the only reports, from the station that broke at NAS?
0 likes   

Opal storm

#607 Postby Opal storm » Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:08 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:I believe Pensacola NAS kept power throughout. They did report gusts very close to cat 3

This is all from an article in the Pensacola News Journal that was released a couple of weeks after Ivan hit.

1:50am, 102mph gust breaks wind sensor at Pensacola Regional.

3:29am, 87mph sustained winds at Pensacola Naval Air Station

3:38am, 123mph gust breaks wind sensor at Pensacola Naval Air Station
0 likes   

Valkhorn
Category 1
Category 1
Posts: 492
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:09 am
Contact:

#608 Postby Valkhorn » Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:12 pm

http://www.weatherunderground.com/histo ... story.html

Well the gusts were up to 77mph before power was lost, so I think its safe to assume based on the pressure of 29.2" that the winds did get to sustained Cat 1 or Cat 2 in Pensacola.

Keep in mind in Hattiesburg, the last report was of 44mph sustained with Katrina - before she even made landfall in MS. We eventually got 100mph winds with higher gusts.
0 likes   

Valkhorn
Category 1
Category 1
Posts: 492
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:09 am
Contact:

#609 Postby Valkhorn » Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:14 pm

Pensacola likely only got Cat 1 winds. The wind damage was mostly superficial. Haven't seen any pictures of structures destroyed by wind.


With Katrina, I do know Hattiesburg had many structures severly damaged by wind alone.
0 likes   

Opal storm

#610 Postby Opal storm » Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:17 pm

Scorpion wrote:Pensacola likely only got Cat 1 winds. The wind damage was mostly superficial. Haven't seen any pictures of structures destroyed by wind.

Many structures were destroyed by wind in Pensacola and there are many pictures of that.
0 likes   

User avatar
Ivanhater
Storm2k Moderator
Storm2k Moderator
Posts: 11166
Age: 38
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:25 am
Location: Pensacola

#611 Postby Ivanhater » Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:35 pm

As a major characteristic of most landfalling hurricanes, Ivan's maximum surface winds occurred within the right front quadrant of the storm (or northeast of Ivan's center given the orientation of approach in this case) just prior to and after landfall. <Click here> to see WSR-88D radar reflectivity location of strongest surface winds at the time of landfall. <Click here> to see WSR-88D radar velocity location of strongest surface winds surrounding landfall ( faster loading .mpg )...or...8 min resolution .gif (large ~18 MB) or 4 min resolution .gif (very large ~36 MB). Note the large area of 124 knot winds at the 3000 feet level above ground northeast through east with respect to Ivan's center.

A loss of power and phone lines well before landfall rendered many observational platforms unable to continue logging data. Table 2 below yields information on regional peak wind gusts during this event. Click on the buoy and Dauphin Island, Alabama C-MAN locations in Table-2 below to view time series plots of sustained wind speeds, wind gusts and wave heights. You may note upon observing Buoy 42040 (70 miles south of Dauphin Island, Alabama ) that significant wave heights reached a maximum of 52 feet (not to be confused with storm surge along the coast!). Buoy 42040 later went adrift from its' mooring. Note that most of the peak wind gust data was obtained from the relatively weaker west side of Ivan. Although there are no surface wind observations available over inland southwestern Alabama, an estimated 80-100 mph winds near Ivan's center caused major tree and structural damage along his path over Escambia, Conecuh, Monroe and Wilcox counties of Alabama.
0 likes   

john potter
Tropical Low
Tropical Low
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:07 pm

#612 Postby john potter » Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:37 pm

Will NHS' final report depend almost solely on recon data taken early on August 29 shortly before LA landfall (first reported 918 mb, 145 mph surface)? This fascinating thread has put up a lot of conflicting data. Trying to interpret the multitudinous aspects of Katrina toward some overarching conclusion approaches the outer reaches of chaos theory.
0 likes   

User avatar
Ivanhater
Storm2k Moderator
Storm2k Moderator
Posts: 11166
Age: 38
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:25 am
Location: Pensacola

#613 Postby Ivanhater » Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:41 pm

Ivan strong by any measure
Winds say Category 3, but damage says Category 4
Lesley Conn
@PensacolaNewsJournal.com

The National Hurricane Center later this month is expected to officially classify Hurricane Ivan as a Category 3 storm.

But it might have had an impact more like a Category 4.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ivan's aftermath
In the early morning hours of Sept. 16, 2004 Hurricane Ivan roared onto shore just west of Pensacola. This section covers the aftermath of that devastating storm. Use the drop-down menu below to view articles from the section.

Select a story "You got hit the hardest." 'Monster of a hurricane' left horror in its wake 911 calls illustrate rising water, panic (with audio) Surging water terrified area Hurricane Ivan by the numbers Recovery still a dream in a beautiful place to live Insurance not enough for many Bay Street residents lose neighborhood Ivan strong by any measure Flood zones create confusion Tourism rebuilding with the beaches Ivan's lesson: Build better, stronger Some challenges we face after Ivan

Ivan's destructive water

Click on the image above to view flooding and storm surge information
In harm's way

Click on the image above to view the paths of the five storms that hit Florida in 2004


Multimedia: Ivan's storm surge

Click on the image above to see a Flash presentation on the hurricane's storm surge and wave action.


Buy the print edition.
View hundreds of photos from the storm and the clean-up efforts.
Check out multimedia presentations of the photographer's works and the art of Ivan.
Discuss storm related issues on our community forums.
Special Report: The Insurance Storm.
Read our Heroes of Ivan series.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The rating is based on sustained wind speeds calculated at 120 miles per hour. If that seems insufficient to reflect the devastation that still surrounds so many people in the Pensacola Bay Area, it may very well be, some hurricane experts acknowledge.

Ivan's enormous size, its significant storm surge and its low central pressure aren't the determining factors in setting its final category number. Yet all three combined to create a storm so punishing that Ivan is listed ninth on the list of the Top 10 Insured Loss Events in World History, according to the Insurance Information Institute.

Calculated losses of $4.3 billion statewide do not include losses for flood damage, which have not been released by the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

So why is wind speed used to establish a category?

Mostly because it is readily definable and easily measurable, said Frank Lepore, spokesman for the National Hurricane Center. Storm surge, for example, is not as easily measured and is affected greatly by the continental shelf, which can vary by hundreds of miles from one location to the next.

And because a hurricane's strength is of interest to a broad array of people, whether the merely curious or to building and insurance officials, it helps to have simple, specific parameters.

One measurement "could not possibly define the effects for every geographic effect,'' Lepore said. "The Saffir-Simpson scale is probably best for general effect, not specific effects. It's more of an indicator, not a definitive reflection.''

One persistent shortcoming of gathering specific wind information, however, is that gauges directly in the path of a storm tend to fail.

That happened with Ivan, leaving the bulk of recorded data to come from the weaker, western side of the storm.

In Ivan's case, the strongest winds likely swept over the Perdido Key and Grande Lagoon area, where there are no gauges, said National Weather Service senior meteorologist Gary Beeler, who is based in Mobile.

"I think we missed (recording) the maximum winds,'' he said. "The pressure and the surge was more conducive to a Category 4 storm.''

And at landfall, Ivan's minimum central pressure was 943 millibars, which falls within a Category 4.

The extent of Ivan's damage was plainly visible during aerial reviews after the storm.

Also obvious to hurricaneexperts was how much wider its impact was than that of Hurricane Charley, a Category 4 storm that struck Aug. 13 near Punta Gorda and cut through Orlando and Daytona Beach before plowing back into the Atlantic.

"Charley had the strongest winds at 145 mph, but it was extremely narrow,'' said Abby Sallenger, a research oceanographer for the Center for Coastal and Watershed Studies, a U.S. Geological Survey research facility in St. Petersburg. "With Ivan, you could fly for 50, 60, even 80 kilometers, and you could see breaches and (barrier island) cut-throughs.''

Storm surge and extreme wave action wrought most of that damage.

Hurricane Opal, the 1995 storm that made landfall at Pensacola Beach, was ranked as a Category 3 storm, too. Its highest sustained winds were recorded at 115 mph.

But Opal is listed as the fifth-most expensive U.S. hurricane, with damages of $3 billion.

Water, not wind, was largely to blame with Opal, too.

Opal heaved several feet of water onto Pensacola and Navarre beaches, cutting paths to Santa Rosa Sound, flattening homes and swallowing long stretches of road.

But comparisons of peak storm surge for Opal and Ivan show it was significantly higher for Ivan.

In Pensacola Pass, at Fort McRae, the surge during Opal measured 7.5 feet; Ivan was 9.7 feet. Another tide gauge at Pensacola Bay off downtown Pensacola showed a surge of 6.2 feet for Opal; for Ivan, 10.2 feet. And in Gulf Breeze, Opal's surge was recorded at 6.3 feet; Ivan was at 10.3 feet.

And where Opal's worst damage was limited largely to the beaches on Santa Rosa Island, Ivan's surge smashed past the island and kept moving inland, swamping homes from Perdido Key to Oriole Beach before moving as far north as Floridatown, north of Interstate 10 in Santa Rosa County.

Like Charley, Opal was a compact storm. Shortly before it made landfall, a reconnaissance plane measured its eye at 10 nautical miles. Ivan's eye was about 20 miles wide, and hurricane-force winds extended 120 miles.

That created waves and surge from Orange Beach, Ala., to Destin.

"Ivan's surge,'' Beeler said, "was the worst surge in modern history in Escambia, Santa Rosa and Baldwin (Ala.) counties.''

It rivals the 1926 hurricane, which also made landfall near Gulf Shores, Ala. Once again, the strongest winds and surge - to the east of the storm - swept over the Pensacola area. The storm tide, which includes tide levels and surge, reached a peak of 9.4 feet at Pensacola, 10.4 feet at Fort Pickens and 14 feet at Bagdad.

As technology continues to improve, hurricane analysis is becoming more sophisticated and more accurate, especially where wind readings are concerned.

Hurricane Andrew, the 1992 storm that made landfall near Miami, was reclassified from a Category 4 to a Category 5 storm in 2001.

Wind instruments that are dropped from the reconnaissance airplane and use a global positioning system to record wind speed, barometic pressure and water vapor provide more detailed information closer to the land, Lepore said.

That information was not available in 1992. Analysis determined that wind speeds closer to land did not drop as much as had been calculated. When Andrew's winds were recalculated, winds were about 17 miles an hour faster. The difference was enough to bump it into the highest storm category.

The Hurricane Center is reviewing all past storms with the new wind-speed formula.

Ivan's wind classification, while still under review, should not change significantly, hurricane analysts said.

In weather experts' eyes, that does little to diminish its impact.

"If people were surprised at the amount of water that showed up in their front lawn, I suspect they weren't aware of what a Category 3 or 4 storm could do locally,'' Lepore said. "A Category 3 or higher only represents 20 percent of storms, yet that represents 80 percent of all damages."
0 likes   

timNms
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 1371
Age: 63
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2002 5:45 pm
Location: Seminary, Mississippi
Contact:

#614 Postby timNms » Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:57 pm

What kind of wind speed is required to lift a vehicle and inch it around?
0 likes   

User avatar
Recurve
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 1640
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:59 pm
Location: St. Petersburg, FL

#615 Postby Recurve » Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:28 pm

Well, cars were in piles and busses and trucks were on top of buildings after Andrew (not from surge), so I guess that was enough wind.

How much wind it takes to nudge a car would depend on surface friction, grade, surface area exposed to the wind. Broken windows would allow wind to get inside and lift rather than flow over a vehicle.
0 likes   

timNms
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 1371
Age: 63
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2002 5:45 pm
Location: Seminary, Mississippi
Contact:

#616 Postby timNms » Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:57 pm

Recurve wrote:Well, cars were in piles and busses and trucks were on top of buildings after Andrew (not from surge), so I guess that was enough wind.

How much wind it takes to nudge a car would depend on surface friction, grade, surface area exposed to the wind. Broken windows would allow wind to get inside and lift rather than flow over a vehicle.


The reason I was asking is that my brother experienced this during Katrina. His toyota truck was parked in his yard. As the winds howled, they would lift his truck about an inch off the ground and move it ever so slightly. His windows were not broken out, nor down.
0 likes   

f5
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 1550
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:29 pm
Location: Waco,tx

#617 Postby f5 » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:03 pm

senorpepr wrote:
deltadog03 wrote:ok, lets calm down before this gets out of hand AGAIN!!! Derek, this is not dissrespect, but, you seem to LOVE to argue with EVERYTHING....why?? give it up....your causing nothing but FIGHTS..


Well... first off, Derek never started this. He posted credible data, but said, "Don't shoot the messenger." Everybody decided to anyway.

The fact of the matter is, Derek isn't causing the fight here. He simply posted data and people raised a fuss. He has tried to support the claims, but some don't want to bother with evidence.

Now... stepping away from that topic for a moment... as for the 175 mph winds: the NHC made the comment that the likelihood of 175 mph winds was very limited and that those winds were not mixing to the surface. Most likely, the winds may have only maxed out at 165 mph.

But... with that said, I expect to see Scorpion forget about the laws of pressure gradient and say something along the lines of, "902mb cannot equal a 165 mph hurricane. :roll: "


How long did Rita's 175mph winds last if Katrina's were limited?
0 likes   

User avatar
senorpepr
Military Met/Moderator
Military Met/Moderator
Posts: 12542
Age: 43
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:22 pm
Location: Mackenbach, Germany
Contact:

#618 Postby senorpepr » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:06 pm

f5 wrote:
senorpepr wrote:
deltadog03 wrote:ok, lets calm down before this gets out of hand AGAIN!!! Derek, this is not dissrespect, but, you seem to LOVE to argue with EVERYTHING....why?? give it up....your causing nothing but FIGHTS..


Well... first off, Derek never started this. He posted credible data, but said, "Don't shoot the messenger." Everybody decided to anyway.

The fact of the matter is, Derek isn't causing the fight here. He simply posted data and people raised a fuss. He has tried to support the claims, but some don't want to bother with evidence.

Now... stepping away from that topic for a moment... as for the 175 mph winds: the NHC made the comment that the likelihood of 175 mph winds was very limited and that those winds were not mixing to the surface. Most likely, the winds may have only maxed out at 165 mph.

But... with that said, I expect to see Scorpion forget about the laws of pressure gradient and say something along the lines of, "902mb cannot equal a 165 mph hurricane. :roll: "


How long did Rita's 175mph winds last if Katrina's were limited?


I cannot comment on Rita. I wasn't around to look at hardly any of the data associated with her nor have I had the time since I've returned to look at her data.
0 likes   

Derek Ortt

#619 Postby Derek Ortt » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:11 pm

Ritas 150KT winds likely lasted no more than 12 hours
0 likes   

Scorpion

#620 Postby Scorpion » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:50 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:Ritas 150KT winds likely lasted no more than 12 hours


Wow, thats alot longer than Katrina's then.
0 likes   


Return to “Talkin' Tropics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Category5Kaiju, Google [Bot], mitchell and 213 guests