18z ETA/GFS thoughts and comment on the ECMWF

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18z ETA/GFS thoughts and comment on the ECMWF

#1 Postby Erica » Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:19 pm

Trending in the direction of the 12z GFS, and yesterday’s 06-18z runs. But in the meantime, today’s 18z ETA has made a drastic change from its previous runs.

It’s all a matter of timing and phasing. Here’s this afternoon’s 18z ETA.

84 hour ETA 300mb
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84 hour ETA 500mb
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The ETA this particular run is indicating a stronger northern branch s/w (which is also closed off at both 300 and 500mb as you can tell from the figures above), but on the other hand is much weaker with the southern branch energy, which because the vort energy is less concentrated, the system is an open wave.

It would also appear as if the ETA is trying to hold some energy back, notice the other s/w sliding down the western side of the positively tilted trough axis. The key here though is that the vort energy is strung out over a wide area from northern Mexico through the southeastern part of the country.

But, Notice the stronger northern branch s/w which is closed off at 500mb and much stronger than both the GFS 12z and 18z runs. So, it drops in and phases with the strung out southern branch energy across the southeast.

What is very interesting to me; however is that the GFS 18z run shows a more concentrated vort and therefore stronger southern branch system across the southern plains (552dm closed low) which is stronger than the ETA’s less concentrated solution, so therefore, it’s probably not a question of the southern branch energy being strong enough to feed back heat as it lifts and turns up, but more a question of phasing.

This is 18z GFS 500mb valid at 84 hours. Take a look at how different it is from the ETA at the same time, in regard to the strength of both the northern and southern stream systems.

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18z GFS 500mb valid at 90 hours
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The GFS indicates a delayed and weaker phasing solution than what the ETA or its 12z run does. The northern stream s/w is significantly weaker than the ETA or what it has on the 12z run (which would be roughly the middle ground on the intensity of the northern stream system).

The main thing here is that the fait of this system lies in what happens with the northern stream system. If a situation similar to the 18z GFS solution unfolds, it will be a storm cancel. If the 18z ETA idea or the 12z GFS/GGEM is correct, we’re looking at a major winter storm for many, especially south of New York City.

I’ll discuss the ECMWF later once it comes out (good or bad, lol). But a note about it now, the ECMWF runs have been having a problem holding back the energy too much, so we should really be careful of them, at least until we get closer to verification.

The ECMWF’s performance has not been that great this winter either, (especially in comparison to last) recall with the December nor’easter, at the last minute it shifted the track to the southeast, against virtually every other model solution.
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#2 Postby therock1811 » Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:24 pm

Great analysis!
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#3 Postby Chris the Weather Man » Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:25 pm

Wonderful Analysis........ ( Why the heck is the Euro, not been as good as last year?)
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#4 Postby molecules » Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:26 pm

Very nice read.......These EC L's can cause gray hair
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#5 Postby Erica » Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:28 pm

Early ECMWF from PSC out at day 3 (Tuesday) has a stronger 500mb low, at 549dm over the southwest, at this intensity and with the vort energy more concentrated, (providing it doesn't weaken) would have a better chance of turning up.

The only problem, since this is energy that is dropping into the southern branch (it doesnt originate in the sub-tropical pacific) the ECMWF looks like it might be holding it back too much, which is to be expected with it's bias.
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#6 Postby Erica » Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:28 pm

Thanks everyone!
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#7 Postby Chris the Weather Man » Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:30 pm

No Problem. And Your Very Welcome....
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#8 Postby Guest » Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:31 pm

Great discussion Erica! I pretty much agree with everything you have said. Now if only the others will listen! Notice btw that i still am seeing no mention of this area where i am to the west of the apps ;)
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#9 Postby Chris the Weather Man » Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:32 pm

King, Nice GIRL! ( Avatar :D )
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#10 Postby Erica » Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:33 pm

king of weather wrote:Great discussion Erica! I pretty much agree with everything you have said. Now if only the others will listen! Notice btw that i still am seeing no mention of this area where i am to the west of the apps ;)


Thanks, and I have no idea why their not mentioning anything. I mean PBZ and CLE should be all over this, especially since the edge of the heavy precipitation (.50"+) almost gets right up to Pittsburgh it's self.
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#11 Postby therock1811 » Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:49 pm

NP Erica! You do a great job!I haven't seen anything from ILN NWS except that they put 30% POP's in for Wednesday and Wed. night...BTW something is slated to hit on Tuesday as well...right now it's only thought to be a rain event...is this the same storm?
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#12 Postby Guest » Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:03 pm

Yes it is Rock. Typical bs from ILN and CLE as usuall. You would think that they would atleast mention that there is something possible! CLE right now i can more understand because we are sitting on the fench with this one still. However Wilmington has no excuse at all. Not sure of what to say about that.
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#13 Postby DelStormLover » Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:23 pm

Erica, I dont think you answered my question last time, are you related to Ryan(RNS)?
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#14 Postby therock1811 » Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:24 pm

Allow me to correct you and myself buddy...ILN's AFD at 3pm does mention it...

.LONG TERM...
UPPER LOW WILL WORK ACROSS THE GULF STATES TUESDAY INTO THURSDAY
BEFORE TRYING TO BOMB ALONG THE SOUTHEAST U.S.. RESULTANT SURFACE
INVERTED TROF/SURFACE LOW WILL POKE UP INTO KENTUCKY AND PERHAPS
SOUTHERN OHIO. PRESENTLY, MODELS ARE HAVING A TOUGH TIME LOCKING
ONTO TIMING AND LOCATION OF THIS SYSTEM. ALTHOUGH ALL AGREE ON
FEATURE. THE LATEST 12Z GFS HAS TRENDED BACK TO ITS 12Z RUN FROM
YESTERDAY...WHICH IS COLDER AND DEEPER. THIS LATEST RUN IS HARD TO
IGNORE. HOWEVER, WITH A VARIETY OF SOLUTIONS FROM OTHER MODELS WILL
KEEP ONLY CHANCE POPS OVER SOUTHERN 3/4 OF FORECAST AREA.
CONCEPTUALLY, WITH TRACK TO SOUTH AND STILL FEBRUARY SNOW SHOULD BE
THE PRECIP TYPE. HOWEVER, TEMPERATURE PROFILES INDICATES
HIGH PRESSURE TO THE NORTH OF FA IS NOT REAL COLD. THUS, WILL GO
MAINLY WITH A MIX OF RAIN AND SNOW.
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#15 Postby Anonymous » Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:30 pm

Erica wrote:The only problem, since this is energy that is dropping into the southern branch (it doesnt originate in the sub-tropical pacific) the ECMWF looks like it might be holding it back too much, which is to be expected with it's bias.

Let's hope so, because the new Euro looks pretty crappy for those of us hoping for a major snowstorm out of this system. :x
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#16 Postby Chris the Weather Man » Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:34 pm

Yes, Brett.......... VERY CRAPPY......... Dang it!
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#17 Postby Erica » Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:34 pm

brettjrob wrote:
Erica wrote:The only problem, since this is energy that is dropping into the southern branch (it doesnt originate in the sub-tropical pacific) the ECMWF looks like it might be holding it back too much, which is to be expected with it's bias.

Let's hope so, because the new Euro looks pretty crappy for those of us hoping for a major snowstorm out of this system. :x


Yea, I agree, I based that comment off the graphics from the ECMWF site, so it was harder to tell, but doesn't really look look like (at least not on the PSC maps) that it's holding back the energy that much.

What is interesting though is that it keeps the closed low stronger (at 549dm) than the GFS or ETA, while over texas, which would suggest enough feedback to turn it up. But we'll see.
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#18 Postby Colin » Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:36 pm

this storm is done
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#19 Postby Erica » Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:36 pm

I'm still not changing my ideas though. And I still want everyone to remember that the ETA 18z run trended in the direction of the previous 12z GFS.
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#20 Postby Colin » Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:37 pm

I'm expecting everything to shift south this evening...this is a supressed system.
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