Judge restricts NOAA hurricane hunter jet.

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CHRISTY

Judge restricts NOAA hurricane hunter jet.

#1 Postby CHRISTY » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:23 pm

Hey guys i read this in jeff masters blog this morning i just wanted to share it with u guys.


A federal labor judge that the high-altitude NOAA Gulfstream jet cannot fly into the core region of hurricanes any more. The judge ruled in favor of the NOAA's labor union, which argued that flying the jet into the core of a hurricane, even at high altitude where turbulence is generally light, posed an unacceptable risk to the crew.

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The NOAA jet generally files at altitudes of 43,000 feet around the periphery of hurricanes, dropping dozens of dropsonde probes that fall on parachutes through the storm that radio back information on temperature, winds, pressure, and humidity. These measurements have been shown to improve track forecasts of hurricanes by as much as 25%, and are crucial to the Hurricane Center's operational forecasts. Generally, the NOAA jet avoids the central core area of a hurricane, where the potential for dangerous turbulence is highest. However, in 2003 the NOAA jet flew into the eye of Hurricane Fabian near Bermuda, by entering through a large gap in the eyewall. Flights into the core regions of Tropical Storm Emily and Franklin in 2005 were also performed, although in all these cases the aircraft was careful to avoid penetrating thunderstorms, and just flew through the high cirrus clouds of the Central Dense Overcast (CDO). Nevertheless, the union argued that such flights were too dangerous, and collected little valuable data.

The Gulf Stream IV jet is a much different king of aircraft than the low-altitude P-3 and C-130 hurricane hunter aircraft, which can shrug off the moderate turbulence one typically finds in hurricane clouds. Moderate turbulence poses a much higher risk to the Gulfstream IV jet, because is flies so much faster. Flying through CDO in the core region of a hurricane presents an increased risk of moderate turbulence, due to the presence of strong wave-like features that propagate through this region. I question whether this increased risk is worthy of causing a ban on all flights into the core region of a hurricane, because in nearly all cases this can be safely accomplished if the crew and pilot exercise good judgment. However, as a member of a crew that once exercised bad judgment in deciding to penetrate Hurricane Hugo's eyewall, I can certainly sympathize with the union's case.

While the new ruling will not significantly affect the Gulfstream IV jet's current ability to provide improved data in support of better hurricane forecasts, it may substantially affect its future role. An airborne Doppler radar system was due to be installed on the NOAA jet by 2009. Data from this radar would be of most value if the jet could fly into the inner core region of hurricanes. With the jet now restricted from going to where the radar data would be of most value, the plans for the new radar may have to be scrapped. This is not necessarily a bad thing, since the heavy new radar would substantially reduce the the flight altitude of the jet. This would significantly decrease the value of the dropsonde data, since the probes would not be able to sample the upper reaches of the storm any more. In the end, the union's victory may turn out to be a positive for all concerned.

Jeff Masters

Here's the link to Jeff Masters blog.http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/show.html

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/storm/content/local_news/epaper/2006/07/01/s2b_Flights_0701.html
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#2 Postby Dean4Storms » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:43 pm

Whats next, astronaut Union objections flying into space?

If it is too dangerous to you, find another job.

Police, Fire, Rescue, military, Consturction personnel subject themselves to much higher risks EVERY DAY!!!!!

Load of crap!
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#3 Postby Aquawind » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:07 pm

Dean4Storms wrote:Whats next, astronaut Union objections flying into space?

If it is too dangerous to you, find another job.

Police, Fire, Rescue, military, Consturction personnel subject themselves to much higher risks EVERY DAY!!!!!

Load of crap!



:lol: Easy for you to say from your chair..Did you even read the article? It will actually get us a better Radar anyways and better data from a higher level.. Just like the plane was designed for.. Your attitude is crap if you think flying a plane in a area it was not designed for is smart..They don't need to try death defying feats to get hurricane data.. We have other planes for that..like the article points out. That would be devistating if we lost a plane like that with the crew.. and foolish.. hence major lawsuit even.. Think about it tough guy.
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#4 Postby terstorm1012 » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:30 pm

agreed with ya Aquawind. At first I had the same reaction that Dean4Storms did, but then I read the article. Headline makes it look bad but in the end it's pretty good.

and this won't happen to the hurricane hunters, as they're military. :) No worries. and in the end the data that comes forth will be better since yes, the Gulfstream was bought to SAMPLE THE UPPER ATMOSPHERE. It'll aid us in great ways in telling where the storms will go. Think about it. the models may finally get ACCURATE. :)
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#5 Postby george_r_1961 » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:32 pm

Good points made here. The C130 is a workhorse, a plane adaptable to many kinds of missions including insecticide spraying and weather recon. The Gulfstream looks more like a private jet for an executive than a plane designed for tolerating the conditions encountered while flying into a hurricane. I dont know much about the P 3 though. I do know I do not want to see anyone take an aircraft into conditions it cannot handle safely.
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#6 Postby Jam151 » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:13 pm

With the jet now restricted from going to where the radar data would be of most value, the plans for the new radar may have to be scrapped.
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#7 Postby Extremeweatherguy » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:44 pm

wow, that radar would have been cool. Too bad..
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#8 Postby Aquawind » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:49 pm

Extremeweatherguy wrote:wow, that radar would have been cool. Too bad..


Yeah but like the acrticle states it's way to heavy.. So were assuming they will have a better model next time around..when or if they ever do install it.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, since the heavy new radar would substantially reduce the the flight altitude of the jet. This would significantly decrease the value of the dropsonde data, since the probes would not be able to sample the upper reaches of the storm any more.


Dropsonde data is big time..we need the best data we can get.
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#9 Postby hurricanefloyd5 » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:52 pm

Dean4Storms wrote:Whats next, astronaut Union objections flying into space?

If it is too dangerous to you, find another job.

Police, Fire, Rescue, military, Consturction personnel subject themselves to much higher risks EVERY DAY!!!!!

Load of crap!

A load of crap is right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
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#10 Postby SouthFloridawx » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:54 pm

I think may trying to use un-manned drones such as used currently in wartime. Although I'm not too sure how sensitive and hard to control during bad/rough turbulence. I'm sure they could fly them in the upper levels with some type of radar equipment attached scanning below.
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#11 Postby Aquawind » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:56 pm

Get with the program. Read the article. It's not a bad thing.. :lol: :lol: :roll:
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#12 Postby Aquawind » Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:00 pm

SouthFloridawx wrote:I think may trying to use un-manned drones such as used currently in wartime. Although I'm not too sure how sensitive and hard to control during bad/rough turbulence. I'm sure they could fly them in the upper levels with some type of radar equipment attached scanning below.


Yep, That technology might provide a load of realtime data. I hope they can fly that high.. That is just alot more obs if anything..
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#13 Postby WindRunner » Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:11 pm

SouthFloridawx wrote:I think may trying to use un-manned drones such as used currently in wartime. Although I'm not too sure how sensitive and hard to control during bad/rough turbulence. I'm sure they could fly them in the upper levels with some type of radar equipment attached scanning below.


We actually are - I believe there was a flight into a system off of FL's east coast last year, not sure about the specifics or how it went, but I think it was Derek that seemed to know more about it.
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#14 Postby x-y-no » Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:31 pm

Very interesting, Christy. I wasn't aware of this issue at all.
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#15 Postby beachbum_al » Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:32 pm

I don't know what the risk are...I assume they are very dangerous. One thing you have to remember those who fly into those hurricanes do have family and friends and I would hate for something to happen to the crew. Is there anyway they could have planes that could handle flying into the storms without putting their lives in danger? There has to be something. I read a little about the new equipment but haven't really read too much. I agree with safety. Yes, they do know what they are getting into when they do this but like anything dangerous if you have better equipment that is safer I am all for it.
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#16 Postby SouthFloridawx » Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:52 pm

This is in regards to a NOAA recon plane and not an airforce recon correct? If so we will still have many missions that the AF will be flying into.
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#17 Postby terstorm1012 » Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:58 pm

This is the NOAA Gulfstream Jet flown by the gov'ts pilots or whatever company they've hired to do the flying. The Air Force is obviously not unionized and still does the bulk of recon missions.
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#18 Postby Dean4Storms » Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:01 pm

This is one mans take on the value of the radar, I guess he knows better than NOAA what all is at stake here?



My attitude and opinion still stands, what you think of it matters ZILCH to me Aquawind, some moderator!!! :roll:
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#19 Postby Aquawind » Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:28 pm

Like it or not I am entitled to my opinion and it has ZILCH to do with moderating this board..
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#20 Postby Rainband » Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:05 am

Dean4Storms wrote:This is one mans take on the value of the radar, I guess he knows better than NOAA what all is at stake here?



My attitude and opinion still stands, what you think of it matters ZILCH to me Aquawind, some moderator!!! :roll:
Your attitude speaks for itself. As for Pauls opinion he is entitled to it. Like he said it has nothing to do with him being a Moderator. BTW I do agree that something means ZILCH to you. RESPECT! :roll:
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