TX Winter Wx Threat # 9--- Another Arctic Outbreak?

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wxman57
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#301 Postby wxman57 » Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:55 pm

southerngale wrote:I see mets talking about bitter cold making it all the way to the Gulf coast, and I've seen '89 and '83 mentioned a few times. But then I see where some of the same mets are saying that the air isn't extraordinarily cold up there. Doesn't the Siberian air need to be particularly cold for this to be a significant Arctic blast, something that prompts wxman57 to send out a Special Weather Statement?
I understand the pattern setup is great, but can that alone with "ordinary" temperatures up there and not "extraordinary" temperatures bring this major Arctic blast that is being advertised?


You pose a good question. In order for a record-smashing cold air event across the Deep South, there needs to be a very cold airmass up north to begin with. Currently, temperatures in the source region, north-central Canada, are in the -20 to -45 degree range. There are likely colder temperatures farthere north where the Polar jet will track, but there are no obs there.

If you examine the ECMWF 850mb temperature contours then you can see how the cold air may develop over the coming week:

http://weather.cod.edu/forecast/loop.ecmwf850t.html

Note the current pool of cold air in SE Canada is forecast to wrap westward as the vortex gets established near SW Hudson Bay. Additional air flowing across the Pole into this Votex could build a mass of very cold air north of the U.S. Border by next Thursday. Temperatures of -32C or colder are indicated over a large area. Such temperatures would be significantly colder than with the last outbreak.

One other thing to consider with this outbreak (vs. Jan 13-16) is that this outbreak will have upper-level support to drive it southward. The cold air won't just sink southward down the Plains, it'll be driven southward with much more force. That, combined with a farther-south snow line means a greater risk of severe cold across the Gulf Coast states. And with an active southern stream liketly to continue, the threat of frozen precip would be there as well, likely farther south than with the last event, as the sub-freezing layer will likely be much thicker.

So, we're quite confident it's going to get MUCH colder across most of the U.S. from the Rockies eastward late next week through the first week or two of February. But we're not yet sure just HOW cold it will be down south. The cold outbreak COULD rival some big outbreaks (1989 for example), but that's a low-confidence forecast this far out. It's possible, though.
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#302 Postby gboudx » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:00 pm

Keep in mind that the snowpack to our north is quite impressive as well.
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#303 Postby HouTXmetro » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:08 pm

gboudx wrote:Keep in mind that the snowpack to our north is quite impressive as well.


Is it really? I know Oklahoma is back into the 50's and 60's. Where does the snow pack extend to vs the snowpack in last week's event?
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#304 Postby cctxhurricanewatcher » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:09 pm

I wonder if the afternoon AFD's will start talking about this a tad more. I think the old timers that used to run the show at NWS Brownsville would probably be putting out the Special Weather Statements by now. I hope they get on the phone and mention the years 1983 and 1989 to them. That should get them moving.
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#305 Postby wxman57 » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:12 pm

cctxhurricanewatcher wrote:I wonder if the afternoon AFD's will start talking about this a tad more. I think the old timers that used to run the show at NWS Brownsville would probably be putting out the Special Weather Statements by now. I hope they get on the phone and mention the years 1983 and 1989 to them. That should get them moving.


Yeah, I used to enjoy reading the Brownsville AFDs back in the 1980s. They were always the first to catch on with such events. I guess they've all retired now. The new kids are still in the learning mode. Give them another 20-30 years. ;-)
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#306 Postby gboudx » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:23 pm

HouTXmetro wrote:
gboudx wrote:Keep in mind that the snowpack to our north is quite impressive as well.


Is it really? I know Oklahoma is back into the 50's and 60's. Where does the snow pack extend to vs the snowpack in last week's event?


Check the sticky about the snow cover graphics at the top. Then scroll down to jimv(sp?) post with the snow pack graphic as of 1/25.
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#307 Postby wxman57 » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:25 pm

gboudx wrote:
HouTXmetro wrote:
gboudx wrote:Keep in mind that the snowpack to our north is quite impressive as well.


Is it really? I know Oklahoma is back into the 50's and 60's. Where does the snow pack extend to vs the snowpack in last week's event?


Check the sticky about the snow cover graphics at the top. Then scroll down to jimv(sp?) post with the snow pack graphic as of 1/25.


Also, it looks like some significant snow from the TX Panhandle through Oklahoma and maybe Arkansas for next Thu/Fri laying an icy path for the Arctic air.
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#308 Postby cctxhurricanewatcher » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:36 pm

Even without snow pack, the ground temps will be quite cool not allowing for modification unlike would be the case if this were an early season front.
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#309 Postby Air Force Met » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:44 pm

HouTXmetro wrote:When is Burn1 coming to tell us SW flow aloft will save Texas?


After he looks at all the maps I posted from 1983, and Feb/Dec 1989 showing SW flow that didn't save Texas. :lol:
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#310 Postby aggiecutter » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:51 pm

Looks like I might get a surprise snow on Tuesday. The GFS had this event in the 7-10 day and lost it. Now it's showing up again in the 12z run.

12z GFS
http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod ... _102.shtml
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#311 Postby Portastorm » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:54 pm

Here is a pearl of wisdom (sic) from NWS Brownsville this afternoon:

"TEMPERATURES WILL RETURN BACK TO NORMAL THIS WEEKEND AND AGAIN BY THE END OF NEXT WEEK."

Memo to NWS forecaster in Brownsville: Yes, you are right. Your temperatures will return to normal next weekend ... normal for ... North Dakota.
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#312 Postby Tamora » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:10 pm

HouTXmetro wrote:
gboudx wrote:Keep in mind that the snowpack to our north is quite impressive as well.


Is it really? I know Oklahoma is back into the 50's and 60's. Where does the snow pack extend to vs the snowpack in last week's event?


My sister is in Muleshoe, south of Amarillo and they have a lot of snow still on the ground and the roads are still slushy.
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#313 Postby Kelarie » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:13 pm

Portastorm wrote:Here is a pearl of wisdom (sic) from NWS Brownsville this afternoon:

"TEMPERATURES WILL RETURN BACK TO NORMAL THIS WEEKEND AND AGAIN BY THE END OF NEXT WEEK."

Memo to NWS forecaster in Brownsville: Yes, you are right. Your temperatures will return to normal next weekend ... normal for ... North Dakota.


:fools: :slime: :hehe: :coaster:
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#314 Postby cctxhurricanewatcher » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:17 pm

Portastorm wrote:Here is a pearl of wisdom (sic) from NWS Brownsville this afternoon:

"TEMPERATURES WILL RETURN BACK TO NORMAL THIS WEEKEND AND AGAIN BY THE END OF NEXT WEEK."

Memo to NWS forecaster in Brownsville: Yes, you are right. Your temperatures will return to normal next weekend ... normal for ... North Dakota.


There you go. Thank goodness for private weather forecasting for which I'm sure most of the Ag interests down there pay attention to now a
days. That's truly pathetic.
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#315 Postby cctxhurricanewatcher » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:20 pm

NWS Brownsville needs some tutoring from NWS DFW. Compared to this mornings AFD from DFW, this is quite a statement. Perhaps they read AFM's post on here about their morning nonsense about the air just stopping north of the state?



WE`LL BE DIRECTLY UNDER THE AFFECTS OF THE POLAR BRANCH OF THE JET STREAM...
SO ANY SYSTEM MOVING UP FROM THE W/SW WILL BE ASBORED AND RAPIDLY SHEARED
AS THE MOVE ACROSS TEXAS WHILE ALL THE VERY COLD AIR IS SETTLED BELOW.
MOISTURE DEPT/AVAILABILITY WILL BE IN QUESTION THROUGH THE NEXT 7 DAYS...
THUS LOW POPS WERE CARRIED OFF/ON THROUGH THE WEEK WITH MUCH UNCERTAINTY
PER MODELS. AFTER DAY 3 (MON)...LEANED WITH THE ALWAYS MORE CONSISTENT
ECWMF/CANADIAN MODELS OF THE FLIP- FLOPPING GFS...ESPECIALLY WITH HANDLING
OF CA/CP AIRMASSES. EXPECT FINE TUNING IN FUTURE FCSTS...BUT NOTHING
LOOKS SIGNIFICANT AT THIS TIME WITH ANY WINTRY MIX OF PRECIPITATION
NEXT WEEK. STAY TUNED AS WE MONITOR THE COLD WEATHER.
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#316 Postby gboudx » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:29 pm

Wow, that's a pretty major change from this morning's AFD. Right now, my forecasted highs for next week are in the mid-upper 40's.
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#317 Postby southerngale » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:39 pm

wxman57 wrote:
southerngale wrote:I see mets talking about bitter cold making it all the way to the Gulf coast, and I've seen '89 and '83 mentioned a few times. But then I see where some of the same mets are saying that the air isn't extraordinarily cold up there. Doesn't the Siberian air need to be particularly cold for this to be a significant Arctic blast, something that prompts wxman57 to send out a Special Weather Statement?
I understand the pattern setup is great, but can that alone with "ordinary" temperatures up there and not "extraordinary" temperatures bring this major Arctic blast that is being advertised?


You pose a good question. In order for a record-smashing cold air event across the Deep South, there needs to be a very cold airmass up north to begin with. Currently, temperatures in the source region, north-central Canada, are in the -20 to -45 degree range. There are likely colder temperatures farthere north where the Polar jet will track, but there are no obs there.

If you examine the ECMWF 850mb temperature contours then you can see how the cold air may develop over the coming week:

http://weather.cod.edu/forecast/loop.ecmwf850t.html

Note the current pool of cold air in SE Canada is forecast to wrap westward as the vortex gets established near SW Hudson Bay. Additional air flowing across the Pole into this Votex could build a mass of very cold air north of the U.S. Border by next Thursday. Temperatures of -32C or colder are indicated over a large area. Such temperatures would be significantly colder than with the last outbreak.

One other thing to consider with this outbreak (vs. Jan 13-16) is that this outbreak will have upper-level support to drive it southward. The cold air won't just sink southward down the Plains, it'll be driven southward with much more force. That, combined with a farther-south snow line means a greater risk of severe cold across the Gulf Coast states. And with an active southern stream liketly to continue, the threat of frozen precip would be there as well, likely farther south than with the last event, as the sub-freezing layer will likely be much thicker.

So, we're quite confident it's going to get MUCH colder across most of the U.S. from the Rockies eastward late next week through the first week or two of February. But we're not yet sure just HOW cold it will be down south. The cold outbreak COULD rival some big outbreaks (1989 for example), but that's a low-confidence forecast this far out. It's possible, though.

Thanks for a great reply...it answers my question and you did it in a way that I could understand. :)
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#318 Postby Wren » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:46 pm

Guys, I'm very new here, and am just trying to absorb the meaning of some of the links that have been posted. I know zip about meterology.

Agcutter, in looking at the link you posted:


http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod ... _102.shtml

Is this suggesting the greatest potential for snow south of waco would be in the southeast quadrant of Texas?
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#319 Postby cctxhurricanewatcher » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:03 pm

Talked to someone just a few minutes ago that has a relative that is professional Fishing Guide in Rockport. The Game Wardens are giving them heads up right now about the pontential front and it's impact for fishing.
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#320 Postby wxman57 » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:08 pm

Wren wrote:Guys, I'm very new here, and am just trying to absorb the meaning of some of the links that have been posted. I know zip about meterology.

Agcutter, in looking at the link you posted:


http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod ... _102.shtml

Is this suggesting the greatest potential for snow south of waco would be in the southeast quadrant of Texas?


Welcome, Wren. No, that link above doesn't suggest snow for Texas. What we'd look at on that map is the top 2 panels showing the building omega-type ridge in the eastern Pacific. The lines form the Greek letter omega. Wind flows parallel to those lines. Top left panel is about 39,000 ft up, top right panel is in the middle of the atmosphere at 18,000 ft up.
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