Texas Fall 2023

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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#41 Postby South Texas Storms » Thu Aug 31, 2023 7:26 pm

captainbarbossa19 wrote:
Ntxw wrote:
bubba hotep wrote:
I was convinced we would see the flip in late summer based on some of the long range indicators in early summer, but that left egg on my face. However, I agree with the stong Nino thinking but am a bit worried about the unknown associated with the HTH eruption. Here is a strong Nino map:

https://i.ibb.co/7GbCDYn/F43-PO2-NXUAEdwc.png


It's very unlikely the STJ will allow for it to stay hot in our region. However when I say anomalies I mean below normal relative to everywhere else. These days it's hard to predict cold. Summer sucks, it's hard to forecast because it's so dependent on rain and moisture, I've been egged to several times since Spring! At least in the cooler season the 500mb pattern can somewhat be more helpful.


I also think there is a rather high chance of an active spring. The correlation is very strong between ENSO and precip especially in the spring. Also, there is a strong correlation with cooler temps too.


Yeah I'm thinking we should begin to transition into a cooler and wetter pattern in October. That pattern should then last through the winter and perhaps all the way through spring as well. Most of the longer range models are showing this.
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#42 Postby tajmahal » Thu Aug 31, 2023 8:17 pm

As of August 29, the Bureau of Meteorology in Australia remains unconvinced that an El Niño has started.

The Bureau's El Niño Alert continues, with El Niño development likely during spring. When El Niño Alert criteria have been met in the past, an El Niño event has developed around 70% of the time. Sea surface temperatures (SSTs) in the tropical Pacific are exceeding El Niño thresholds and have continued to warm slightly over the last fortnight. Climate models indicate further warming of the central to eastern Pacific is likely, with SSTs remaining above El Niño thresholds until at least early 2024. The 90-day Southern Oscillation Index (SOI) is presently just below El Niño thresholds, while trade winds and Pacific cloudiness have not yet demonstrated sustained El Niño patterns. Overall, atmospheric indicators suggest the Pacific Ocean and atmosphere are not yet consistently reinforcing each other, as occurs during El Niño events.


http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#43 Postby tajmahal » Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:15 pm

A negative Pacific Decadal Oscillation enhances winter and spring La Niña temperature and precipitation teleconnections. It also diminishes El Niño teleconnections.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ac9327/meta
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#44 Postby 869MB » Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:50 pm

tajmahal wrote:As of August 29, the Bureau of Meteorology in Australia remains unconvinced that an El Niño has started.

The Bureau's El Niño Alert continues, with El Niño development likely during spring. When El Niño Alert criteria have been met in the past, an El Niño event has developed around 70% of the time. Sea surface temperatures (SSTs) in the tropical Pacific are exceeding El Niño thresholds and have continued to warm slightly over the last fortnight. Climate models indicate further warming of the central to eastern Pacific is likely, with SSTs remaining above El Niño thresholds until at least early 2024. The 90-day Southern Oscillation Index (SOI) is presently just below El Niño thresholds, while trade winds and Pacific cloudiness have not yet demonstrated sustained El Niño patterns. Overall, atmospheric indicators suggest the Pacific Ocean and atmosphere are not yet consistently reinforcing each other, as occurs during El Niño events.


http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/



Ironically, I almost posted something very similar in the Talking Tropics 2023 Indicators Thread earlier this evening, but I deleted it at the last second. I'm not sure this El Nino has truly established itself just quite yet. If you average the SOI for June, July, and August you get a value of -5.79. The SOI Monthly average for the past 90 Days is -5.45. August is the first month with a SOI monthly average below -7.00. And even the last 11 days of August trended above the -7.00 threshold. So this may be yet another reason, besides the +AMO, warm SST anomalies, etc. why the Atlantic Hurricane Season has not been 'suppressed' like El Ninos of the past.

https://www.longpaddock.qld.gov.au/soi/

So what does this mean for the remainder of the Atlantic Hurricane Season? I'm not quite sure, but I'm leaning towards continued tropical cyclone formation assuming supportive MJO, CCKW phases cooperate and MDR wind shear remains average to below average through October.

So what does this mean for our long-range weather here in Texas? I'm still leaning towards wetter-than-average conditions but I want to see a +PDO orientation in the Pacific before I become more confident. Like I just posted in the Summer Thread, we're trending in the wrong direction. A trend I hope is only temporary...

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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#45 Postby 869MB » Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:55 pm

tajmahal wrote:A negative Pacific Decadal Oscillation enhances winter and spring La Niña temperature and precipitation teleconnections. It also diminishes El Niño teleconnections.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ac9327/meta


This was the study I was looking for...I skimmed through it but I need to re-read it again. If I'm not mistaken and understand what their results found, it supports what I just posted, a negative PDO may somewhat stifle the 'typical' El Nino teleconnections we've assumed in the past. I'll take more time and re-read again to make sure I fully understand what they're trying to convey. I know it's just one study, but I think it is a very important one.
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#46 Postby Ntxw » Thu Aug 31, 2023 10:26 pm

869MB wrote:
tajmahal wrote:A negative Pacific Decadal Oscillation enhances winter and spring La Niña temperature and precipitation teleconnections. It also diminishes El Niño teleconnections.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ac9327/meta


This was the study I was looking for...I skimmed through it but I need to re-read it again. If I'm not mistaken and understand what their results found, it supports what I just posted, a negative PDO may somewhat stifle the 'typical' El Nino teleconnections we've assumed in the past. I'll take more time and re-read again to make sure I fully understand what they're trying to convey. I know it's just one study, but I think it is a very important one.


PDO is a lagging oscillation. It is overturning SSTA influenced by weather patterns. 3 years of La Nina leaves a mark. But ENSO is a different mechanic of Ocean sloshing from wind and oceanic kelvin wave activity that eventually influences weather patterns, that overturns the PDO in time.
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#47 Postby tajmahal » Thu Aug 31, 2023 10:37 pm

That study shows where its results fail the 95 percent confidence interval test; yet, the study generally does not discuss those areas in any detail. MPI–GE is the only model used that shows statistical significance for Texas.

One downside to the study's methodology is the assumption of normality in temperature distributions, which are most decidedly NOT normal (Gaussian).

Generally, I think the study is useful.

On decadal timescales, Pacific Decadal Variability in the North Pacific Ocean is described by the Pacific decadal oscillation (PDO). The PDO partly results from remote tropical forcing from ENSO itself, which is reddened by local ocean reemergence processes, where anomalies sequestered below the summer mixed layer are re-entrained in the mixed layer the following winter, increasing the anomaly persistence from winter-to winter. Processes independent of the tropics such as interactions between the Central North Pacific wind forcing and the Kuroshio-Oyashio Extension that occur via slow westward propagating oceanic Rossby waves are also important for the PDO. ... During a PDO positive phase, El Niño circulation anomalies intensify. Specifically, the Aleutian Low further deepens, concurrent with an additional intensification of the Pacific jet between 20 and 30N. Associated with the deepening of the Aleutian low, extra warmer air from the lower latitudes moves up over north-western Canada and Alaska and acts to amplify the El Niño warm anomalies. Higher pressure over the continental land surface also contributes to these enhanced warm anomalies. Fewer cold air outbreaks occur over the land surface when the surface pressure is higher. Furthermore, the additional intensification of the Pacific jet brings increased rainfall to the California coast line associated with an increase in the storm tracks. In contrast, when the PDO is negative, El Niño circulation anomalies are weakened, resulting in the opposite effect on both teleconnections. Similarly, the PDO has the opposite effect on the atmospheric circulation during a La Niña compared to the effect on an El Niño event. For instance, a negative PDO enhances the anomalous La Niña atmospheric circulation, while a positive PDO diminishes it. ...While the two phases of the PDO have opposing effects on ENSO events, the probability of an El Niño occurring during a positive PDO is higher than during a negative PDO. In contrast, the probability of a La Niña occurring during a negative PDO is higher than during a positive phase. This result highlights that the PDO is more likely to act to amplify ENSO events than diminish them. Strong El Niños (Niño3.4 > 1) show the same effect, i.e. they are also more likely to occur in a positive phase of the PDO than a negative PDO, meaning strong ENSO events are also more likely to be amplified than diminished by the PDO in agreement with previous studies.
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#48 Postby Ntxw » Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:39 am

CANSIPS in conjunction with CFSv2 and Euro long range would be favorable flip in October that intensifies Nov-March for very active El Nino like 500mb late Fall and Winter. Relative to the globe, we might me in the most favorable region of anomalous cool. it's hard to repeat 2009 with the blocking, but this is likely the best set up in a long time. Mod-Strong El Ninos consistently provide the best winters for us out of the ENSO spectrum arguably. Just need to avoid Super.

Translation: Below normal, stormy, and chilly for Texas.
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#49 Postby cheezyWXguy » Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:44 am

Ntxw wrote:CANSIPS in conjunction with CFSv2 and Euro long range would be favorable flip in October that intensifies Nov-March for very active El Nino like 500mb late Fall and Winter. Relative to the globe, we might me in the most favorable region of anomalous cool. it's hard to repeat 2009 with the blocking, but this is likely the best set up in a long time. Mod-Strong El Ninos consistently provide the best winters for us out of the ENSO spectrum arguably. Just need to avoid Super.

Translation: Below normal, stormy, and chilly for Texas.

I probably post this every year around this time, but for this year especially I’m curious how the fall/winter severe season will play out once we start having troughs dig down. With El Niños favoring an active subtropical jet, along with the absurdly warm gulf temps we currently have, and a pattern that in general favors consistent storminess over sweeping arctic blasts, the first thought that comes to my mind is a 2009 or 2015 style second season.
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#50 Postby TeamPlayersBlue » Fri Sep 01, 2023 12:06 pm

Ntxw wrote:CANSIPS in conjunction with CFSv2 and Euro long range would be favorable flip in October that intensifies Nov-March for very active El Nino like 500mb late Fall and Winter. Relative to the globe, we might me in the most favorable region of anomalous cool. it's hard to repeat 2009 with the blocking, but this is likely the best set up in a long time. Mod-Strong El Ninos consistently provide the best winters for us out of the ENSO spectrum arguably. Just need to avoid Super.

Translation: Below normal, stormy, and chilly for Texas.


I see you're trying to avoid what 2009-10 was really about. Worried about jinxing it? :P
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#51 Postby rwfromkansas » Fri Sep 01, 2023 12:08 pm

On the plus side, the NWS forecast for my area shows only up to 101 in the next week.

That's much better than 107-110. I will take any progress until we have a true flip. I live in TX. I'm used to hot Septembers, just not well over 100.
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#52 Postby Ntxw » Fri Sep 01, 2023 12:38 pm

TeamPlayersBlue wrote:
Ntxw wrote:CANSIPS in conjunction with CFSv2 and Euro long range would be favorable flip in October that intensifies Nov-March for very active El Nino like 500mb late Fall and Winter. Relative to the globe, we might me in the most favorable region of anomalous cool. it's hard to repeat 2009 with the blocking, but this is likely the best set up in a long time. Mod-Strong El Ninos consistently provide the best winters for us out of the ENSO spectrum arguably. Just need to avoid Super.

Translation: Below normal, stormy, and chilly for Texas.


I see you're trying to avoid what 2009-10 was really about. Worried about jinxing it? :P


Ahahaha, 2009's blocking was so extreme it's hard to match any year to it. Unpredictability.

In terms of forcing though we're in a good spot. We don't like the -PDO because in the warmer season it lacks rain but in the colder season it allows cold to build in Canada. An El Nino with warm ++PDO floods the US and Canada with mild Pacific air (this is why Super Nino's tend to fail and ends up hot.) It's rare to see -PDO and El Nino couplet the last being 2009-2010. you want to see a dominant subtropical jet (Nino) and a tame quiet Pacific (-PDO). You have some big hitters like 1963-1964, 1972-1973, and 1976-1977. These are some blockbusters. I like the odds.
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#53 Postby captainbarbossa19 » Fri Sep 01, 2023 2:46 pm

Ntxw wrote:
TeamPlayersBlue wrote:
Ntxw wrote:CANSIPS in conjunction with CFSv2 and Euro long range would be favorable flip in October that intensifies Nov-March for very active El Nino like 500mb late Fall and Winter. Relative to the globe, we might me in the most favorable region of anomalous cool. it's hard to repeat 2009 with the blocking, but this is likely the best set up in a long time. Mod-Strong El Ninos consistently provide the best winters for us out of the ENSO spectrum arguably. Just need to avoid Super.

Translation: Below normal, stormy, and chilly for Texas.


I see you're trying to avoid what 2009-10 was really about. Worried about jinxing it? :P


Ahahaha, 2009's blocking was so extreme it's hard to match any year to it. Unpredictability.

In terms of forcing though we're in a good spot. We don't like the -PDO because in the warmer season it lacks rain but in the colder season it allows cold to build in Canada. An El Nino with warm ++PDO floods the US and Canada with mild Pacific air (this is why Super Nino's tend to fail and ends up hot.) It's rare to see -PDO and El Nino couplet the last being 2009-2010. you want to see a dominant subtropical jet (Nino) and a tame quiet Pacific (-PDO). You have some big hitters like 1963-1964, 1972-1973, and 1976-1977. These are some blockbusters. I like the odds.


I just want the weather to change at this point. I like dynamic weather. It keeps us all busy and those in the profession paid!
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#54 Postby South Texas Storms » Fri Sep 01, 2023 3:41 pm

Ntxw wrote:
TeamPlayersBlue wrote:
Ntxw wrote:CANSIPS in conjunction with CFSv2 and Euro long range would be favorable flip in October that intensifies Nov-March for very active El Nino like 500mb late Fall and Winter. Relative to the globe, we might me in the most favorable region of anomalous cool. it's hard to repeat 2009 with the blocking, but this is likely the best set up in a long time. Mod-Strong El Ninos consistently provide the best winters for us out of the ENSO spectrum arguably. Just need to avoid Super.

Translation: Below normal, stormy, and chilly for Texas.


I see you're trying to avoid what 2009-10 was really about. Worried about jinxing it? :P


Ahahaha, 2009's blocking was so extreme it's hard to match any year to it. Unpredictability.

In terms of forcing though we're in a good spot. We don't like the -PDO because in the warmer season it lacks rain but in the colder season it allows cold to build in Canada. An El Nino with warm ++PDO floods the US and Canada with mild Pacific air (this is why Super Nino's tend to fail and ends up hot.) It's rare to see -PDO and El Nino couplet the last being 2009-2010. you want to see a dominant subtropical jet (Nino) and a tame quiet Pacific (-PDO). You have some big hitters like 1963-1964, 1972-1973, and 1976-1977. These are some blockbusters. I like the odds.


I think it's more important that we see above normal precipitation than snow at this point. With how bad the drought is becoming after our brutal hot and dry summer, it would be great to have it nearly eliminated with a persistent wet pattern this winter. I'll take near normal temperatures and well above normal precip please!
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#55 Postby weatherdude1108 » Fri Sep 01, 2023 4:21 pm

South Texas Storms wrote:
Ntxw wrote:
TeamPlayersBlue wrote:
I see you're trying to avoid what 2009-10 was really about. Worried about jinxing it? :P


Ahahaha, 2009's blocking was so extreme it's hard to match any year to it. Unpredictability.

In terms of forcing though we're in a good spot. We don't like the -PDO because in the warmer season it lacks rain but in the colder season it allows cold to build in Canada. An El Nino with warm ++PDO floods the US and Canada with mild Pacific air (this is why Super Nino's tend to fail and ends up hot.) It's rare to see -PDO and El Nino couplet the last being 2009-2010. you want to see a dominant subtropical jet (Nino) and a tame quiet Pacific (-PDO). You have some big hitters like 1963-1964, 1972-1973, and 1976-1977. These are some blockbusters. I like the odds.


I think it's more important that we see above normal precipitation than snow at this point. With how bad the drought is becoming after our brutal hot and dry summer, it would be great to have it nearly eliminated with a persistent wet pattern this winter. I'll take near normal temperatures and well above normal precip please!


:uarrow:
What South Texas Storms said. :lightning: :rain: :rain: :rain: :cold: :rain: :rain: :rain: :rain: :rain: :wink:
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#56 Postby 869MB » Fri Sep 01, 2023 5:12 pm

Ntxw wrote:
869MB wrote:
tajmahal wrote:A negative Pacific Decadal Oscillation enhances winter and spring La Niña temperature and precipitation teleconnections. It also diminishes El Niño teleconnections.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ac9327/meta


This was the study I was looking for...I skimmed through it but I need to re-read it again. If I'm not mistaken and understand what their results found, it supports what I just posted, a negative PDO may somewhat stifle the 'typical' El Nino teleconnections we've assumed in the past. I'll take more time and re-read again to make sure I fully understand what they're trying to convey. I know it's just one study, but I think it is a very important one.



PDO is a lagging oscillation. It is overturning SSTA influenced by weather patterns. 3 years of La Nina leaves a mark. But ENSO is a different mechanic of Ocean sloshing from wind and oceanic kelvin wave activity that eventually influences weather patterns, that overturns the PDO in time.


I read this 2016 NOAA Climate Blog earlier this summer and it explains the ‘lagging’ process you allude to with respect to the PDO as those weather patterns change as the seasons evolve…

The persistence of (ocean) memory

The vanilla in the PDO’s climate Neapolitan is the ocean itself. SST anomalies that develop due to random weather or an El Niño/La Niña normally wind up reaching below the sea surface. These deeper anomalies can get stuck at depth—cut off from weather patterns and currents at the surface that cause anomalies to dissipate—only to “re-emerge” the following year.

The getting stuck happens in the summer (1). Sort of like how your favorite long sleeve shirt might make its way to the bottom of the drawer and be forgotten during the warm summer months only to re-emerge the following winter. This phenomenon is called “reemergence,” and it helps to continue trends in the PDO from year to year (Alexander and Deser 1995).

(1) In the North Pacific, SST anomalies can develop to a greater depth in the ocean during winter than in summer because the Aleutian Low is strongest in winter, helping to mix the water to a deeper depth (a deep mixed layer). When the calendar shifts into spring and summer, the Aleutian Low weakens and moves north to be replaced by a high-pressure system, calmer weather and a shallower area of mixed water. It can be like installing a barrier in the ocean. Any water temperature anomalies underneath that wall get stuck, having to wait to dissipate until the following winter when the mixed layer deepens and that barrier doesn’t exist.”

http://www.climate.gov/news-features/blogs/enso/going-out-ice-cream-first-date-pacific-decadal-oscillation


But I still need to re-read that latest study to see if they conclude this ‘lagging’ -PDO may somewhat mute the normal El Niño teleconnections we experience across our region during the late Fall/Winter months.
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#57 Postby tajmahal » Fri Sep 01, 2023 5:37 pm

The study says it does. I quoted it in an earlier post.
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#58 Postby 869MB » Fri Sep 01, 2023 5:40 pm

South Texas Storms wrote:
Ntxw wrote:
TeamPlayersBlue wrote:
I see you're trying to avoid what 2009-10 was really about. Worried about jinxing it? :P


Ahahaha, 2009's blocking was so extreme it's hard to match any year to it. Unpredictability.

In terms of forcing though we're in a good spot. We don't like the -PDO because in the warmer season it lacks rain but in the colder season it allows cold to build in Canada. An El Nino with warm ++PDO floods the US and Canada with mild Pacific air (this is why Super Nino's tend to fail and ends up hot.) It's rare to see -PDO and El Nino couplet the last being 2009-2010. you want to see a dominant subtropical jet (Nino) and a tame quiet Pacific (-PDO). You have some big hitters like 1963-1964, 1972-1973, and 1976-1977. These are some blockbusters. I like the odds.


I think it's more important that we see above normal precipitation than snow at this point. With how bad the drought is becoming after our brutal hot and dry summer, it would be great to have it nearly eliminated with a persistent wet pattern this winter. I'll take near normal temperatures and well above normal precip please!


Yeah I was thinking the exact same thing. My biggest concern would be just how much rainfall will ultimately accumulate during this period across my area of SE TX if this -PDO persists through the Fall into Winter.

And just to add, I know other teleconnections/indices will play a factor in our rainfall chances this winter as well. This summer, I’ve been looking into all of them to see which patterns would be the most beneficial in helping us pull out of this persistent drought.
Last edited by 869MB on Fri Sep 01, 2023 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#59 Postby Ntxw » Fri Sep 01, 2023 5:48 pm

869MB wrote:
South Texas Storms wrote:
Ntxw wrote:
Ahahaha, 2009's blocking was so extreme it's hard to match any year to it. Unpredictability.

In terms of forcing though we're in a good spot. We don't like the -PDO because in the warmer season it lacks rain but in the colder season it allows cold to build in Canada. An El Nino with warm ++PDO floods the US and Canada with mild Pacific air (this is why Super Nino's tend to fail and ends up hot.) It's rare to see -PDO and El Nino couplet the last being 2009-2010. you want to see a dominant subtropical jet (Nino) and a tame quiet Pacific (-PDO). You have some big hitters like 1963-1964, 1972-1973, and 1976-1977. These are some blockbusters. I like the odds.


I think it's more important that we see above normal precipitation than snow at this point. With how bad the drought is becoming after our brutal hot and dry summer, it would be great to have it nearly eliminated with a persistent wet pattern this winter. I'll take near normal temperatures and well above normal precip please!


Yeah I was thinking the exact same thing. My biggest concern would be just how much rainfall will ultimately accumulate during this period across my area of SE TX if this -PDO persists through the Fall into Winter.


In terms of energy budget ENSO is a heavyweight compared to PDO due to being in the tropics. 1972 was a very dry El Nino followed by 1973 very wet, same thing with 2006 -> 2007 so even in -PDO periods the El Nino does provide a window. The bigger question to ask is are we in a longer term -PDO, once the Nino is done will it revert to multi year La Nina and more -PDO? If that is so, then you'll get 6-12 months of wet weather followed by 2-3 years of subpar rainfall.
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Re: Texas Fall 2023

#60 Postby 869MB » Fri Sep 01, 2023 6:06 pm

Ntxw wrote:
869MB wrote:
South Texas Storms wrote:
I think it's more important that we see above normal precipitation than snow at this point. With how bad the drought is becoming after our brutal hot and dry summer, it would be great to have it nearly eliminated with a persistent wet pattern this winter. I'll take near normal temperatures and well above normal precip please!


Yeah I was thinking the exact same thing. My biggest concern would be just how much rainfall will ultimately accumulate during this period across my area of SE TX if this -PDO persists through the Fall into Winter.


In terms of energy budget ENSO is a heavyweight compared to PDO due to being in the tropics. 1972 was a very dry El Nino followed by 1973 very wet, same thing with 2006 -> 2007 so even in -PDO periods the El Nino does provide a window. The bigger question to ask is are we in a longer term -PDO, once the Nino is done will it revert to multi year La Nina and more -PDO? If that is so, then you'll get 6-12 months of wet weather followed by 2-3 years of subpar rainfall.


Yeah exactly, that’s what I’ve been worried about all year even before this El Niño was declared on June 8th. I hope I’m wrong but I’m afraid the answer to your question you propose will be ultimately be yes. I alluded to this possibility earlier this year on the Wx Infinity Forum with El Niño ultimately transitioning right back to a La Niña with more -PDO dominance. We shall see.
Last edited by 869MB on Mon Sep 04, 2023 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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