STORM2K

Do tornados spiril up or down, if up then can Water Spouts actually help fuel a thunderstorm?

1. Can a Tornado become a water spout?

2. Can a water spout become a tornado?

3. Are Tornadoes made of Wind and Debris or Wind, Debris, and cloud?

4. Are torndaoes actually a small part of and even bigger even happening in the cloud?
---- I. If so how fast can the winds in the cloud get?
---- II. Why doesn't the whole cloud Spiril?

5. Are tornadoes really a cause of an imballence in pressure?

6. Why do Tornades Spin?

7. Why do major imbalences in pressure happen during thunderstorms?

8. why do thunderstorms only occure in low pressure enviroments?

9. Can tornadoes merge?

10. Why do i have so many questions?

Do tornados spiril up or down, if up then can Water Spouts actually help fuel a thunderstorm? They spiril up. Waterspouts do not fuel the thunderstorm.

1. Can a Tornado become a water spout? Yes

2. Can a water spout become a tornado? Yes

3. Are Tornadoes made of Wind and Debris or Wind, Debris, and cloud? All

4. Are torndaoes actually a small part of and even bigger even happening in the cloud?
---- I. If so how fast can the winds in the cloud get? 300 mph
---- II. Why doesn't the whole cloud Spiril? I don't know

5. Are tornadoes really a cause of an imballence in pressure? I don't know

6. Why do Tornades Spin? They spin because of the rotation of the thunderstorm.

7. Why do major imbalences in pressure happen during thunderstorms? Sorry, i don't know.

8. why do thunderstorms only occure in low pressure enviroments? I don't know.

9. Can tornadoes merge? Yes.

10. Why do i have so many questions? Possibly you are very curious

4 II. The whole cloud does spiral.

8. There is lift near Low-pressure opposed to sinking air near High-pressure.

1 & 2 - yes

3. both, if I remember right.

4. yes
I. - I'm not sure, but I don't think this has been measured, at least not widely.
II. - The whole cloud does spiral, or rather twist, and clouds can do this without always producing tornadoes. These clouds are called mesocyclones, and are essentially just a giant, rotating thunderstorm cloud, and most tornadoes are produced from this type of cloud.

5. Depends on how you mean it. Technically, the winds are the result of a pressure difference. (surroudning air has much higher pressure, where the center is a mini low-pressure system that has a very low pressure, much lower than those in hurricanes, though with similar effects.) Yet the reason that the low pressure forms and exists is not something that I (and I don't think anyone) knows, or at least can be sure of.

6. That's just how the atmosphere works. It's the same reason hurricanes spin, I can tell you that. The real explanation is something having to do with some complex physics concepts from what I've heard.

7. Turbulent air moving through the thunderstorm because of all the updrafts and downdrafts is the only thing I can think of.

8. Less air to get in the way of the rain?

9. Technically, no. We would of a Fujiwara effect the same as we do with hurricanes, but I'm sure if two tornadoes were headed directly at each other moving >40mph each, something phenomenal would happen.

10. Because you want to learn.

Astro_man92 wrote:Do tornados spiril up or down, if up then can Water Spouts actually help fuel a thunderstorm?

1. Can a Tornado become a water spout?

2. Can a water spout become a tornado?

6. Why do Tornades Spin?

Tornadoes and waterspouts are the same thing.

If you have some sort of rotation and it is stretched upwards by an updraught (Large scale convergence, a mesocyclone etc), then to conserve vorticity it will spin faster.

Windrunner wrote:9. Technically, no. We would of a Fujiwara effect the same as we do with hurricanes, but I'm sure if two tornadoes were headed directly at each other moving >40mph each, something phenomenal would happen.

hmm Can they rotate around each other?

Mutual binary rotation of two vortices about a common center is what the Fujiwhara Effect is.

Steve

P.K. wrote:

Astro_man92 wrote:Do tornados spiril up or down, if up then can Water Spouts actually help fuel a thunderstorm?

1. Can a Tornado become a water spout?

2. Can a water spout become a tornado?

6. Why do Tornades Spin?

Tornadoes and waterspouts are the same thing.

If you have some sort of rotation and it is stretched upwards by an updraught (Large scale convergence, a mesocyclone etc), then to conserve vorticity it will spin faster.

a "true" waterspout is different than a tornado. A "true" waterspout can form in a light rain shower or out of typical (non-severe) cumulus clouds. They usually only have winds of 30-60mph. A tornado on the other hand forms only in severe thunderstorms and usually have winds over 70mph. There can be tornados on water, but they are technically not a "true" waterspout.

Extremeweatherguy wrote:a "true" waterspout is different than a tornado. A "true" waterspout can form in a light rain shower or out of typical (non-severe) cumulus clouds. They usually only have winds of 30-60mph. A tornado on the other hand forms only in severe thunderstorms and usually have winds over 70mph. There can be tornados on water, but they are technically not a "true" waterspout.

You can get tornadoes forming over the land in that way as well so that isn't true.

P.K. wrote:

Extremeweatherguy wrote:a "true" waterspout is different than a tornado. A "true" waterspout can form in a light rain shower or out of typical (non-severe) cumulus clouds. They usually only have winds of 30-60mph. A tornado on the other hand forms only in severe thunderstorms and usually have winds over 70mph. There can be tornados on water, but they are technically not a "true" waterspout.

You can get tornadoes forming over the land in that way as well so that isn't true.

Tornadoes like that on land are called landspouts, not waterspouts.

Here is a good site with tons of info. on all different types of vortexes:

http://www.mb.ec.gc.ca/air/summersevere/ae00s25.en.html

However, landspouts, despite the different term to describe them, are still tornadoes as are cold air funnels that make contact with the ground. Waterspouts that come ashore are called tornadoes by NWS regardless of method of formation and tornadoes over water are called waterspouts regardless of method of formation. Mesocyclone tornadoes actually comprise much less than half of all reported tornadoes though they tend to be the most severe. Remember that the definition of a tornado does not say anything about method of formation just that it is a violently rotating column of air in connecting the cloud and ground.

Steve

1. Can a Tornado become a water spout? Absolutely

2. Can a water spout become a tornado? Absoluteyl

3. Are Tornadoes made of Wind and Debris or Wind, Debris, and cloud? Tornadoes will always be composed of wind by definition, however the other two are not necessary. Debris will only exist whenever something is "picked up" by the storm and tornadoes are possible without ever seeing the funnel.

4. Are torndaoes actually a small part of and even bigger even happening in the cloud? Yes
---- I. If so how fast can the winds in the cloud get? we don't know for sure. High end estimates are usually 250-300 mph but that is just speculation.
---- II. Why doesn't the whole cloud Spiril? The majority of the storm actually does spin but think of it like an ice skater. Spread out the skater spins slow but when she pulls in her arms tight she spins faster. conservation of angular momentum. The tornado is relatively small compared to the size of the actual mesocyclone.

5. Are tornadoes really a cause of an imballence in pressure? Sort of. If you think about it...all weather is a result of an imbalance in pressure.

6. Why do Tornades Spin? the most common method is due to the tilting of horizontal vorticity rolls due to wind shear in the lower levels. These "rolls" are already spinning "like a wheel" but they are lifted and tilted sideways. As it is stretched, the conservation of angular momentum will cause the spinning to increase in speed. Sorry for confusion there. that is a tough question to answer in a short amount of time.

7. Why do major imbalences in pressure happen during thunderstorms? this is due to rising motion in some areas, sinking motion in others, release of latent heat from condensation, entrainment of air. There are many reasons why pressures vary greatly across storms.

8. why do thunderstorms only occure in low pressure enviroments? They don't always. Have you heard of the "southwest monsoon" (not really a monsoon)? However, high pressure tends to cause sinking motion which tends to suppress convection. Supercells thunderstorms also require large amounts of shear which are usually absent in high pressure regimes due to lighter winds.

9. Can tornadoes merge? I guess that multiple vortex types can merge but tornadoes from separate storms will not (never say never I guess). Usually one storm will dominate and destroy the near-storm environment of the other, if not destroy both.

10. Why do i have so many questions? that I'm not going to try and answer

Actually, the Southwestern US Monsoon is considered to be a true monsoon and is part of the larger North American Monsoon. A monsoon is a seasonal windshift which we most certainly do experience here in AZ every year between June 15th and September 30th (most commonly from July 3rd through September 7th). The mean layer flow shifts from SW to SE and the flow brings moisture in for thunderstorms. Like the Asian monsoon, the monsoon establishes itself when the ST High shifts northward and lower pressure follows it. In 2004, there was an International scientific study called NAME for North American Monsoon Experiment which was conducted for the purpose of further study of this important Summer weather pattern.

Steve

Astro_man92 wrote:

Windrunner wrote:9. Technically, no. We would of a Fujiwara effect the same as we do with hurricanes, but I'm sure if two tornadoes were headed directly at each other moving >40mph each, something phenomenal would happen.

hmm Can they rotate around each other?

Oh whoops the Fujiwara effect is coming back to me now. That would be amazing to se two Hurricanes or two tornadoes triwling around each other.

wall_cloud wrote:

WindRunner wrote:

wxmann_91 wrote:

Nate-Gillson wrote:Do tornados spiril up or down, if up then can Water Spouts actually help fuel a thunderstorm? They spiril up. Waterspouts do not fuel the thunderstorm.

1. Can a Tornado become a water spout? Yes

2. Can a water spout become a tornado? Yes

3. Are Tornadoes made of Wind and Debris or Wind, Debris, and cloud? All

4. Are torndaoes actually a small part of and even bigger even happening in the cloud?
---- I. If so how fast can the winds in the cloud get? 300 mph
---- II. Why doesn't the whole cloud Spiril? I don't know

5. Are tornadoes really a cause of an imballence in pressure? I don't know

6. Why do Tornades Spin? They spin because of the rotation of the thunderstorm.

7. Why do major imbalences in pressure happen during thunderstorms? Sorry, i don't know.

8. why do thunderstorms only occure in low pressure enviroments? I don't know.

9. Can tornadoes merge? Yes.

10. Why do i have so many questions? Possibly you are very curious

4 II. The whole cloud does spiral.

8. There is lift near Low-pressure opposed to sinking air near High-pressure.

1 & 2 - yes

3. both, if I remember right.

4. yes
I. - I'm not sure, but I don't think this has been measured, at least not widely.
II. - The whole cloud does spiral, or rather twist, and clouds can do this without always producing tornadoes. These clouds are called mesocyclones, and are essentially just a giant, rotating thunderstorm cloud, and most tornadoes are produced from this type of cloud.

5. Depends on how you mean it. Technically, the winds are the result of a pressure difference. (surroudning air has much higher pressure, where the center is a mini low-pressure system that has a very low pressure, much lower than those in hurricanes, though with similar effects.) Yet the reason that the low pressure forms and exists is not something that I (and I don't think anyone) knows, or at least can be sure of.

6. That's just how the atmosphere works. It's the same reason hurricanes spin, I can tell you that. The real explanation is something having to do with some complex physics concepts from what I've heard.

7. Turbulent air moving through the thunderstorm because of all the updrafts and downdrafts is the only thing I can think of.

8. Less air to get in the way of the rain?

9. Technically, no. We would of a Fujiwara effect the same as we do with hurricanes, but I'm sure if two tornadoes were headed directly at each other moving >40mph each, something phenomenal would happen.

10. Because you want to learn.

1. Can a Tornado become a water spout? Absolutely

2. Can a water spout become a tornado? Absoluteyl

3. Are Tornadoes made of Wind and Debris or Wind, Debris, and cloud? Tornadoes will always be composed of wind by definition, however the other two are not necessary. Debris will only exist whenever something is "picked up" by the storm and tornadoes are possible without ever seeing the funnel.

4. Are torndaoes actually a small part of and even bigger even happening in the cloud? Yes
---- I. If so how fast can the winds in the cloud get? we don't know for sure. High end estimates are usually 250-300 mph but that is just speculation.
---- II. Why doesn't the whole cloud Spiril? The majority of the storm actually does spin but think of it like an ice skater. Spread out the skater spins slow but when she pulls in her arms tight she spins faster. conservation of angular momentum. The tornado is relatively small compared to the size of the actual mesocyclone.

5. Are tornadoes really a cause of an imballence in pressure? Sort of. If you think about it...all weather is a result of an imbalance in pressure.

6. Why do Tornades Spin? the most common method is due to the tilting of horizontal vorticity rolls due to wind shear in the lower levels. These "rolls" are already spinning "like a wheel" but they are lifted and tilted sideways. As it is stretched, the conservation of angular momentum will cause the spinning to increase in speed. Sorry for confusion there. that is a tough question to answer in a short amount of time.

7. Why do major imbalences in pressure happen during thunderstorms? this is due to rising motion in some areas, sinking motion in others, release of latent heat from condensation, entrainment of air. There are many reasons why pressures vary greatly across storms.

8. why do thunderstorms only occure in low pressure enviroments? They don't always. Have you heard of the "southwest monsoon" (not really a monsoon)? However, high pressure tends to cause sinking motion which tends to suppress convection. Supercells thunderstorms also require large amounts of shear which are usually absent in high pressure regimes due to lighter winds.

9. Can tornadoes merge? I guess that multiple vortex types can merge but tornadoes from separate storms will not (never say never I guess). Usually one storm will dominate and destroy the near-storm environment of the other, if not destroy both.

10. Why do i have so many questions? that I'm not going to try and answer

wow thanks for all the information everyone

Aslkahuna wrote:Actually, the Southwestern US Monsoon is considered to be a true monsoon and is part of the larger North American Monsoon. A monsoon is a seasonal windshift which we most certainly do experience here in AZ every year between June 15th and September 30th (most commonly from July 3rd through September 7th). The mean layer flow shifts from SW to SE and the flow brings moisture in for thunderstorms. Like the Asian monsoon, the monsoon establishes itself when the ST High shifts northward and lower pressure follows it. In 2004, there was an International scientific study called NAME for North American Monsoon Experiment which was conducted for the purpose of further study of this important Summer weather pattern.

Steve

I stand corrected. Thanks for the info

Aslkahuna wrote:Actually, the Southwestern US Monsoon is considered to be a true monsoon and is part of the larger North American Monsoon. A monsoon is a seasonal windshift which we most certainly do experience here in AZ every year between June 15th and September 30th (most commonly from July 3rd through September 7th). The mean layer flow shifts from SW to SE and the flow brings moisture in for thunderstorms. Like the Asian monsoon, the monsoon establishes itself when the ST High shifts northward and lower pressure follows it. In 2004, there was an International scientific study called NAME for North American Monsoon Experiment which was conducted for the purpose of further study of this important Summer weather pattern.

Steve

Hmmmm, interesting post about that study. I am not familiar with it.

I know that Joe B. in his column has pointed out numerous times that the SW "monsoon" isn't a true monsoon and he has cited numerous meteorological reasons to support his viewpoint. Apparently this debate has been ongoing for some time.

Astro_man92 wrote:9. Can tornadoes merge?

I'm sure this has happened many times, but the first thing to pop into my head when I read the question was that two significant tornadoes merged in Fond du Lac county in Wisconsin during the 6/23/04 outbreak.

All information from the NWS Milwaukee/Sullivan 6/23 Outbreak Page

Tornado #1 of the two that merged:
At 8:33 pm, another tornado spun up about 3 miles west northwest of Markesan, or 2N of Manchester, in Green Lake County near the intersection of Highway 73 and County Road H. It headed southeast through the southern portions of Markesan causing extensive tree and building damage. It then cut across the southwest corner of Fond Du Lac County and into far northern Dodge County into the city of Waupun. The tornado continued on its path into the southern areas of Knowles before dissipating near Highway 41 at 9:05 pm. Damage surveys concluded this tornado was an F3.



Tornado #2 of the two that merged:
A third tornado spun up at 8:35 pm 4.2 miles south southeast of Markesan in Green Lake County and moved east toward the Green Lake and Fond du Lac county line by 8:42 pm. Large trees were uprooted and some buildings were damaged. Before merging with the Markesan tornado in far western Fond du Lac County, this tornado caused F2 damage.

it would suck to live right where they merged! You would be hit from both sides with F3s!

Interesting fact, there. I had not heard about that, though it does seem very possible that that would be the way it would happen.