I noticed some of you talking about storing as much gasoline as possible. What's the best way to store a large quantity safely?
Also, what about the natural gas generators? We have a natural gas -- would it make more sense to use that type? Or are the natural gas pipelines prone to shut down much like electrical in a big storm?
Thanks,
Ray
Looking to buy a Generator but what size?
Moderator: S2k Moderators
Natural gas is a good choice, but as you mentioned, there is the real possibility that the gas lines may shut down in a hurricane due to pipeline leaks caused by uprooted trees. I don't have natural gas available in my area, that narrowed down my fuel choices to propane, diesel or gasoline.Solari wrote:I noticed some of you talking about storing as much gasoline as possible. What's the best way to store a large quantity safely?
Also, what about the natural gas generators? We have a natural gas -- would it make more sense to use that type? Or are the natural gas pipelines prone to shut down much like electrical in a big storm?
Thanks,
Ray
I ended up choosing gasoline as my generator fuel mainly because of its wide availability and because I was doing this entire emergency generator project on a budget. I could have spent $6,000 to $10,000 and put in a permanent whole house generator hooked up to an automatic transfer switch and a 300 gallon propane tank. However, my need for backup power just doesn't justify that high expense.
I've lived in coastal Florida for 30 years and I've lived in my current house for the last 24 years. During that entire time, I've only needed an emergency generator 2 times. During each event, the power was out for about 5 days (although the local power company kept telling everyone that it would take 2 weeks to restore power). Therefore, the odds are in my favor that I may not need to use this generator in the next ten years. I wanted to have a cost effective solution, so that is why I chose a gasoline powered 5,000 watt generator.
Based upon tests that I have all ready conducted with the generator, I'll be able to run my refrigerator/freezer, two window A/C units (8,000 BTU), a ceiling fan, a high velocity 20" floor fan and five fluorescent bulbs (26 watts each) with the generator. My generator will run (with the aforementioned load) for 10 hours on 5 gallons of gasoline. But to be conservative, I am only counting on getting 8 hours of power for every 5 gallons of gasoline.
Therefore, I am storing 90 gallons of gasoline which should last me for 6 days if I run the generator 24/7. I bought a Rubbermaid horizontal storage shed that I keep in a shady spot in the back yard (away from the house). I have 16 Blitz 5 gallon gas cans and 5 Blitz 2+ gallon gas cans stored in the shed. Each gas can is full with gasoline which has been treated with Briggs & Stratton "Fresh Start" fuel stabilizer.
If we get through this season without a hurricane or major power outage, I will use the gas in my cars in December and January and then stock up again with fresh fuel (and stabilizer) in May. A friend of mine also has a Rubbermaid shed but he only has 50 gallons of gasoline in his shed. However, he has a boat in his driveway that has an 80 gallon gas tank on board.
Frankly, what prompted me to get a generator was hurricane Dennis. We were without power for 5 days and it was hot as hell both day and night. We opened up all the windows in the house, but there was no breeze. The heat and humidity were horrendous and we could not sleep. I decided that I was not going to let that happen again!
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ocala
- Tropical Depression
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:48 am
- Location: Candler,Florida
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Man this is one hell of a discussion. Certainly opened my eyes to the "low voltage" problem being discussed. I have a Troy Bilt 7800 watt with a 16hp B & S. I couldn't find anything in the manual about continuous watts so I looked on the unit itself. Sure enough, there it was. Max watts-7800 at 32.5 amps.
Continuous watts 7200 at 30 amps. Boy thats a load off my mind knowing I have enough juice to power what I need with out ruining the items.
Continuous watts 7200 at 30 amps. Boy thats a load off my mind knowing I have enough juice to power what I need with out ruining the items.
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I am a Licensed Electrician
A couple things to think about is:
1) BACK FEEDING your house through a dryer plug in one sence it can and will work as long as the main breaker is off. The bad thing is if you forget to throw the breaker serious problems can happen and most likely will. I Read a article about someone doing that and the current went to the transformer on the power poll and shot back 800+ volts to the house. A lots of thing went wrong. I am not saying do it or don't do it but i can tell you this,it's not wize due to forgetin' If your going to wire it to the house make sure it will run all you want to run without lowering the power needed, cause compressors on AC's and such can be damaged.
The best way to do this is to get a automatic switch control box rated for the generator and your house. This box will automatically disconect from the poll and run from the grenerator without dangering your home. This way you are well covered....
2) Store your gas well away from the house but easy to get to. And always use a gas treatment to make sure the gas will not go bad.
3) Every generator out there should have a list of things it can run at a time and try to not over work it, Stay with in the limits it's capable of powering. If it dose not have a list go to there web site and get the list from them.
ocala,your Try Bilt can run alot but they also have a list of all it can run at once as well should be on the outside of the box...
Please understand i am not in any way trying to tell anyone what to do, i am just trying to give everyone that is not to sure about this a couple serious thing to take in consideration so we might all still be here together in this site.
Good Luck to you all stay safe......
A couple things to think about is:
1) BACK FEEDING your house through a dryer plug in one sence it can and will work as long as the main breaker is off. The bad thing is if you forget to throw the breaker serious problems can happen and most likely will. I Read a article about someone doing that and the current went to the transformer on the power poll and shot back 800+ volts to the house. A lots of thing went wrong. I am not saying do it or don't do it but i can tell you this,it's not wize due to forgetin' If your going to wire it to the house make sure it will run all you want to run without lowering the power needed, cause compressors on AC's and such can be damaged.
The best way to do this is to get a automatic switch control box rated for the generator and your house. This box will automatically disconect from the poll and run from the grenerator without dangering your home. This way you are well covered....
2) Store your gas well away from the house but easy to get to. And always use a gas treatment to make sure the gas will not go bad.
3) Every generator out there should have a list of things it can run at a time and try to not over work it, Stay with in the limits it's capable of powering. If it dose not have a list go to there web site and get the list from them.
ocala,your Try Bilt can run alot but they also have a list of all it can run at once as well should be on the outside of the box...
Please understand i am not in any way trying to tell anyone what to do, i am just trying to give everyone that is not to sure about this a couple serious thing to take in consideration so we might all still be here together in this site.
Good Luck to you all stay safe......
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HurricaneJim
- Tropical Storm
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- Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 9:26 pm
- Location: Rucksack, somewhere
- Contact:
I Read a article about someone doing that and the current went to the transformer on the power poll and shot back 800+ volts to the house. A lots of thing went wrong.
Not to mention you might kill a linesman a mile away. Transformers "Step up" current going back out the same as they "Step down" current coming to your house. If the power company catches you backfeeding, they're going to be pretty steamed and in some places you can be heavily fined.
Having a liscensed electritian install a proper generator interface box is the safest and best bet for both your house and the rest of the community. Also, if you somehow tourch your home and the insurance company finds out you were backfeeding, they'll be laughing all the way back to the bank to redeposite your check back to themselves.
Regards Nat gas. Any engine can be modified to run on Nat gas/propane. That could be a better option for some in a living situation where storing fairly volitile petrol might not be such a good idea.
The other thing that factors in when a genny is utilized is...is your home already energy efficient? If you're lean on the power to begin with, a genny will have no problem.
Factor two is running things in shifts. IE: top off the freezer (which should have some frozen jugs in it to help out), then run something else. With limited energy, don't try to fire up your whole home as if you were still on full power.
Home Power Journal is an outstanding source of information regarding keeping your energy usage low to begin with and a variety of systems that help eliminate your DEPENDENCY on a power company from the git go.
Jim
http://www.myspace.com/hurricanejim
http://www.myspace.com/stormchasetroopers
NAVY WAM LINK
https://www.fnmoc.navy.mil/PUBLIC/WAM/all_natl.html
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FireCracker
- Tropical Low
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 6:46 am
- Location: Vero Beach
ROBJOHN is right on target. I started with a 7500 watt gasoline two days after Frances and Jeanne put us in the red zone. 90percent of the county was without power for almost three weeks each time.
Please remember the dangers of any combustion engine include fire and carbon monoxide poisoning. Each hurricane seemed to have multiple deaths due to CO getting into the home living spaces.
Also decide if you or your family will be comfortable with pouring gasoline (must be a cool engine to avoid spilled gasoline ingiting) and standing in gas lines. If you want to store enough gas for a week, where do you store it safely?
In my case I live at the EOC throughout the landfall and for days after. This leaves my wife and child at home to do the filling, starting watt management etc. For these reasons I chose an LP Gas generator installed by an electrician. It will last for years and I can share power with neighbors when needed.
BTW I am a 50 yo native who started with Donna in 68'?. My Dad and I would nail up plywood on homes for those who were elderly or widowed. Since he owned a lumberyard he would take down the plywood after the storm and sell it as new plywood with "only a few holes".
Please remember the dangers of any combustion engine include fire and carbon monoxide poisoning. Each hurricane seemed to have multiple deaths due to CO getting into the home living spaces.
Also decide if you or your family will be comfortable with pouring gasoline (must be a cool engine to avoid spilled gasoline ingiting) and standing in gas lines. If you want to store enough gas for a week, where do you store it safely?
In my case I live at the EOC throughout the landfall and for days after. This leaves my wife and child at home to do the filling, starting watt management etc. For these reasons I chose an LP Gas generator installed by an electrician. It will last for years and I can share power with neighbors when needed.
BTW I am a 50 yo native who started with Donna in 68'?. My Dad and I would nail up plywood on homes for those who were elderly or widowed. Since he owned a lumberyard he would take down the plywood after the storm and sell it as new plywood with "only a few holes".
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naked swirl
- Tropical Wave
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:05 am
- Location: New Orleans
I've just been directed to this thread. Very informative! From what i can gather, I should not assume that I can plug in my mom's oxygen concentrator machine into a portable generator in the event of a power outage, because of possible damage to the O2 machine, right? Well there goes that plan! I will check with her medical equipment supplier to be sure, but I was hoping a generator would solve the problem of what to do if we get a tropical storm, say, or even a bad lightning storm, and lose power for an extended period (beyond what her portable tanks will cover).
Anybody here with experience dealing with older people on oxygen and what they do during an extended power outage, short of getting out of town??
Anybody here with experience dealing with older people on oxygen and what they do during an extended power outage, short of getting out of town??
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Re:
I know the thread is about generators, but you can easily expand on this.
Living in Indiana, our main issue for extended power outages are heavy snow storms, which are few and far between. I have been looking at alternative power for a while now. I am on the other end of the spectrum that most those here. Since a heavy snow is about the only thing to keep power out for extended periods, I need something that will run my wood stove insert blower which will pretty much keep my home heated. (Side note: For those who live or might move to the snow belt area, a wood stove is a must have in my opinion. However, my mistake was to get an insert. You really should get a stand alone stove or an insert that sits on the hearth of a pre-existing fireplace. The top should be flat as well. This allows you to take advantage of radiant heat and you can cook on the top with cast iron cookware.)
Do not limit your choices to just generators. You need to also think about storing power (batteries) and having other options (solar, propane, etc.). Some generators come with battery power cords so you can power up batteries via the generator. You can also buy smaller solar panels to help fuel batteries. For cooking needs, propane camping stoves should work plenty. Lighting needs can be propane lamps, battery powered compact fluorescent bulb lanterns. They even sell solar powered motion lights designed for the outside of your home. The wires on the panels are long and you can always put the panel in sunlight and run the light into the home.
While I purchased a battery for my wood stove back-up, I am not finding out that I really need something more. The battery idea would be great for a small radio (information, alarm, clock), but that it is. Generators _are_ the way to go. My main need is small, a low powered fan unit which in turn will help pump very hot air into my home. Wood and matches I have, but with my insert inside the fireplace, it eats up a lot of the residual heat.
Though my digging for info on my needs, I found that certain electronics need "clean" power. Generator power, DC battery power converted, etc. is usually considered "dirty." Depending on your needs, if you were using high capacity batteries to power computers or certain medical equipment, you need an inverter that will convert the power to pure sine wave.
Like most folks here have said, they only have a limited amount of money to spend. Do your research and buy stuff you can use and what you need. I find a lot of folks waste a ton of money. I have tried to live a very frugal life and as such, find out I am able to save a lot more than in the past. Just cutting out CDs and movies had saved me thousands over the last few years. I do the Blockbuster On-line. I think I have gotten about 50 movies from them for a flat monthly fee that has added up to about $100 or so. Considering we would have went and watched these movies at the theater (say $10 each person), we have saved $900 in movie entertainment alone. We have cut back almost all eating out. We go out 1-2 times a week. That saves us tons more money. For those who live in these hard hit or high risk areas, think about what is more important. Maybe cut back on spending or retirement savings. Having a nice hunk of money in a 401(k) or Roth is nice, but maybe take this year to divert some of that money into alternative energy goods?
Good luck!
Living in Indiana, our main issue for extended power outages are heavy snow storms, which are few and far between. I have been looking at alternative power for a while now. I am on the other end of the spectrum that most those here. Since a heavy snow is about the only thing to keep power out for extended periods, I need something that will run my wood stove insert blower which will pretty much keep my home heated. (Side note: For those who live or might move to the snow belt area, a wood stove is a must have in my opinion. However, my mistake was to get an insert. You really should get a stand alone stove or an insert that sits on the hearth of a pre-existing fireplace. The top should be flat as well. This allows you to take advantage of radiant heat and you can cook on the top with cast iron cookware.)
Do not limit your choices to just generators. You need to also think about storing power (batteries) and having other options (solar, propane, etc.). Some generators come with battery power cords so you can power up batteries via the generator. You can also buy smaller solar panels to help fuel batteries. For cooking needs, propane camping stoves should work plenty. Lighting needs can be propane lamps, battery powered compact fluorescent bulb lanterns. They even sell solar powered motion lights designed for the outside of your home. The wires on the panels are long and you can always put the panel in sunlight and run the light into the home.
While I purchased a battery for my wood stove back-up, I am not finding out that I really need something more. The battery idea would be great for a small radio (information, alarm, clock), but that it is. Generators _are_ the way to go. My main need is small, a low powered fan unit which in turn will help pump very hot air into my home. Wood and matches I have, but with my insert inside the fireplace, it eats up a lot of the residual heat.
naked swirl wrote:I've just been directed to this thread. Very informative! From what i can gather, I should not assume that I can plug in my mom's oxygen concentrator machine into a portable generator in the event of a power outage, because of possible damage to the O2 machine, right?
Anybody here with experience dealing with older people on oxygen and what they do during an extended power outage, short of getting out of town??
Though my digging for info on my needs, I found that certain electronics need "clean" power. Generator power, DC battery power converted, etc. is usually considered "dirty." Depending on your needs, if you were using high capacity batteries to power computers or certain medical equipment, you need an inverter that will convert the power to pure sine wave.
Like most folks here have said, they only have a limited amount of money to spend. Do your research and buy stuff you can use and what you need. I find a lot of folks waste a ton of money. I have tried to live a very frugal life and as such, find out I am able to save a lot more than in the past. Just cutting out CDs and movies had saved me thousands over the last few years. I do the Blockbuster On-line. I think I have gotten about 50 movies from them for a flat monthly fee that has added up to about $100 or so. Considering we would have went and watched these movies at the theater (say $10 each person), we have saved $900 in movie entertainment alone. We have cut back almost all eating out. We go out 1-2 times a week. That saves us tons more money. For those who live in these hard hit or high risk areas, think about what is more important. Maybe cut back on spending or retirement savings. Having a nice hunk of money in a 401(k) or Roth is nice, but maybe take this year to divert some of that money into alternative energy goods?
Good luck!
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naked swirl
- Tropical Wave
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:05 am
- Location: New Orleans
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ocala
- Tropical Depression
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:48 am
- Location: Candler,Florida
- Contact:
I found this wattage chart on Troy Builts site. Gives you an idea of what you would need to cover yourself.
http://www.troybilt-gen-pw.com/generato ... on&class=1
Also I have a question for any electricians out there. I have asked several in my area but all tell me something different. My AC unit is a 2 ton unit outside with a 2 1/2 ton coil inside. Can my generator power this? I have a 7200 continuous watt 30amp unit. I did try it a while back and it did indeed work fine but I don't want to run it on low voltage and blow the compressor.
Thanks.
http://www.troybilt-gen-pw.com/generato ... on&class=1
Also I have a question for any electricians out there. I have asked several in my area but all tell me something different. My AC unit is a 2 ton unit outside with a 2 1/2 ton coil inside. Can my generator power this? I have a 7200 continuous watt 30amp unit. I did try it a while back and it did indeed work fine but I don't want to run it on low voltage and blow the compressor.
Thanks.
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DanKellFla
- Category 5
- Posts: 1291
- Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:02 pm
- Location: Lake Worth, Florida
Ocala, I am not an electrician. But, I doubt that you can run a 2 ton unit without any damage for any length of time. But, there are two things you can check. First, look at the documentation of the generator and find out what the actuall amperage output is. All a 30 amp plug means is that the generator can output between 20 and 30 amps. So, you need to dig into the documentation. The number you are looking for will be for the 220V output, not the 110 (which will be double.) Also, look at the breaker for your unit. There should be an embossed number on the lever. That is the rated amperage for the breaker. If that breaker has a number higher than 30, then you are out of luck. Now all that is by the book, as best as I can tell. How long did you actually run the A/C unit with that generator? I am just curious. You might want to ask an A/C person as well.
But, you have another option. Just wait until some window units go on sale and buy one. I have a 5600 Watt generator and have a 5000 Btu window unit that I bought for $78. I think Target is having sales on window units right now. I thing that the generator that you have can power a good sized window unit and still have power left over.
Please let me know if any of this helps, or, if I am totally wrong.
But, you have another option. Just wait until some window units go on sale and buy one. I have a 5600 Watt generator and have a 5000 Btu window unit that I bought for $78. I think Target is having sales on window units right now. I thing that the generator that you have can power a good sized window unit and still have power left over.
Please let me know if any of this helps, or, if I am totally wrong.
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ocala
- Tropical Depression
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:48 am
- Location: Candler,Florida
- Contact:
Re: Looking to buy a Generator but what size?
Dan this is what I found.
Right below the 220 outlet it says 240 volts/30amps
The breaker switch didn't have anything.
Maximum-7800 watts at 32.5amps
Continuous- 7200 watts at 30amps
Start up- 13500 watts
When I ran my central unit I did it for about 3 hours. Only other thing running was the TV and the fridge. That was about 2 months ago and so far no problems with the AC unit. (knock on wood)
I do have a window unit which I was planning to use but I was just curious at the time if it would run the central ac.
Right below the 220 outlet it says 240 volts/30amps
The breaker switch didn't have anything.
Maximum-7800 watts at 32.5amps
Continuous- 7200 watts at 30amps
Start up- 13500 watts
When I ran my central unit I did it for about 3 hours. Only other thing running was the TV and the fridge. That was about 2 months ago and so far no problems with the AC unit. (knock on wood)
I do have a window unit which I was planning to use but I was just curious at the time if it would run the central ac.
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DanKellFla
- Category 5
- Posts: 1291
- Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:02 pm
- Location: Lake Worth, Florida
Where is that guy that sells Hondas when you need him?
Maybe there is a metal plate on the outside unit (evaporator I think) of the A/C. That might have an amp rating. I think there will be two. One for start-up and one for running. Maybe your generator is powerful enought and your central unit is small enough. If you know anybody in the A/C business, maybe you should talk to them.
Maybe there is a metal plate on the outside unit (evaporator I think) of the A/C. That might have an amp rating. I think there will be two. One for start-up and one for running. Maybe your generator is powerful enought and your central unit is small enough. If you know anybody in the A/C business, maybe you should talk to them.
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ocala
- Tropical Depression
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:48 am
- Location: Candler,Florida
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Re: Looking to buy a Generator but what size?
I have talked to some AC guys and electricians. Some tell me it will run it fine and others say it will ruin the compressor.
I'll probably err on the side of caution as I really don't want to replace that compressor.
I'll probably err on the side of caution as I really don't want to replace that compressor.
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Re: Looking to buy a Generator but what size?
ocala wrote:Dan this is what I found.
Right below the 220 outlet it says 240 volts/30amps
The breaker switch didn't have anything.
Maximum-7800 watts at 32.5amps
Continuous- 7200 watts at 30amps
Start up- 13500 watts
When I ran my central unit I did it for about 3 hours. Only other thing running was the TV and the fridge. That was about 2 months ago and so far no problems with the AC unit. (knock on wood)
I do have a window unit which I was planning to use but I was just curious at the time if it would run the central ac.
I will be one that says it will run fine. Once it's started, I think a two ton unit only consumes about 2400 watts (very roughly, maybe 3000). The startup requires much more. If I recall, when I placed an amp meter on my 1.5 ton it was pulling about 1500 watts and the 5 ton was pulling about 5000. Of course the blower probably takes 1000 or so, also.
I have a similar generator (7500, 13500 starting), and it will not start my 5 ton (no surprise there). But I also have a 3500 watt with about 5500 watt surge, and it will run the 1.5 ton just fine.
You might want to try this:
http://www.kickstartoem.com
This helps with AC startup. Start capacitor / potential relay. I have a 15kw natural gas generator. It would struggle to start the 5 ton before I installed this. Some generator companies are marketing the product to allow a smaller generator to be sold to power larger central ACs. I have purchased one for each of my units.
Hope this helps a bit,
Brad
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canetracker
- S2K Supporter
- Posts: 746
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- Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:49 pm
- Location: Suburbia New Orleans...Harahan, LA
Re:
HurricaneJim wrote:Regards Nat gas. Any engine can be modified to run on Nat gas/propane. That could be a better option for some in a living situation where storing fairly volitile petrol might not be such a good idea.I Read a article about someone doing that and the current went to the transformer on the power poll and shot back 800+ volts to the house. A lots of thing went wrong.
I did convert my briggs and stratton. I can now run on natural gas, propare or gasoline and all with the flip of a switch.
I listed the website below for the conversion kits. My generator required a C kit, but the site is user friendly and will walk you through the kit you need. The only problem with conversion kits is they require some improvisation. Will be happy to post a pic of how we rigged ours to get it to work, if any are thinking about this.
http://www.uscarb.com/
Further, I did run my generator to my circuit breaker box. It is important as mentioned before when doing this to flip the switch to generator power and make sure you have the proper size wiring. We also converted our gas meter to be able to run the generator safely. Luckily my dad has a strong electrical background and was a gas meterman for Texaco for 40 years.
My last tid bit of advice is that portable generators are noisy and may require well ventilated out housing pending the area you live in. We built a generator house, which I think is a proto-type model of what they should be. Once again, you guessed it, my dad built it from scratch. Will definitely post pictures of this.
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