What was the strongest Tropical Cyclone Ever???

[Derek Ortt]

they went in at 1500 feet because it was a research flight, not an operational flight

There were some problems with Isabel when they were flying around much lower trying to get oceanic observations (but not in the eyewall)

As for the intensities, I thought the TC that hit Mynamar around the same time as Monica was more intense than Monica and that Dvorak severely underestimated that one, again due to a small eye size. it looked very similar to Wilma

[P.K.]

That would have been Severe Cyclonic Storm Mala (100-110kts the public advisory said, never saw the aviation warning sadly, with a centre pressure estimated at 954hPa operationally).

[vmax135]

they went in at 1500 feet because it was a research flight, not an operational flight

Hi Derek - That is true, it was a research flight... but, as Jeff Masters pointed out, they were questioning going in that low, several members preferring 5,000 ft... given Hugo's radar presentation... but the decision was made for the first penetration to be at 1,500 ft based partially on the morning's satellite derived intensity of 110-115kts and 950mb.

Here are some passages from his account, during the time that decision was made:

"...Today, we are pushing the limits of safe hurricane flying by going into the eyewall at 1,500 feet, the altitude where the hurricane's winds and turbulence are at their worst."

"I look closely at the eyewall--a tight ring of bright orange and red echoes surrounding the eye. Checking the echo intensity scale at the side of the display, I find that the radar information looks consistent with this morning's satellite estimates of Hugo's intensity--winds of 130 mph and a central pressure of 950 millibars, a strong category three storm on a scale of one to five.

My examination of the radar display is fairly hurried, and I fail to notice that the strongest echos from the radar display are off scale. Typically, one of us takes the time during the ferry to a hurricane to properly scale the radar reflectivities, but no one has done so this time, because of radar system's failure during approach."

Frank appears at my station, and I remove my headset to talk.

"Looks like an impressive storm!" He shouts above the noise of the four engines. "We need to do the mission at an altitude that's low, but no so low that its real rough and we get bad radar data."

"Well, Hugo's definitely getting his act together," I shout back. "Do you still want to try it at 1,500 feet?"

"Well, we got away with it in Hurricane Gabrielle last week, and Hugo looks like it's about the same strength. Let's try the first penetration at 1,500, and if it's too rough, we'll climb to 5,000," he answers.

"OK, 1,500 it is!" I yell back. As Frank disappears back into the cockpit to take the chief scientist's seat, I get on the intercom.

"Lowell, they want to go in at 1,500 feet. How do you feel about that?" I sound and feel nervous about this choice.

"Fifteen hundred, hey?" he responds. I can tell by his tone of voice he feels none too comfortable with this choice, either. "I'd be happier at 5,000."

"Yeah, me too. But we got away with it last week in Gabrielle, and if it's rough on the first penetration, we can do the rest of the mission at 5,000."

"All right," sighs Lowell. "We'll take her down to 1,500 and see how it goes. Are you happy with this track?"

"Looks OK for now, we may want to adjust a bit when we get down to 1,500. Standby, we're almost at our descent point."

I wait a minute until we arrive at our planned descent point, then give the command, "OK, let's descend to 1,500 feet at 1,000 feet per minute."

"All right, here we go!" replies Lowell.

-=Michael=-
www.tropmet.com

[pojo]

The AFRES Hurricane Hunters had the same problems with Wilma as the NOAA P3 did with Hugo. At the time of penetration it was a cat5...NHC initially thought Wilma was only going to be a cat1. Trust me I studied this storm for my ATMO Dynamics class... and talked with those on the flight that discovered Wilma's Pressure at 883mb... it wasn't a fun ride...they had to drop extra sondes to believe their eyes.

[Derek Ortt]

I heard from some in the field that NHC was tyrying to get the AF to change that Wilma penetration to 700mb, but the AF overruled NHC

The AF then made Wilma's center fix at about 500 feet above the surface of the water (the 900mb fix, which thankfully they made the 882mb fix at 700mb)

[Tampa Bay Hurricane]

I'd go for monica 869 mb but im no professional.

[pojo]

Both onboard Radar and Pressure Altimeters were reading about 2600ft in an nose-down attitude...when the 882 mb reading was taken...the pilots were fighting the turbulence to bring the plane back into a nose-up attitude...

This was the second fix into Wilma on that flight... the first fix was at 900mb when the pilots determined it was to strong of a storm to do Low-Level fixes....they then rose up to 700mb and still had a rough time dropping the sondes.... NHC wanted Eyewall-Eye-Eyewall for each of the fixes from that point on.... Wilma's eye was C4 (4mi circular) ...I think they missed a drop because of the short time and lack of eyewall distance...we almost lost the crew on that msn. Thankfully all returned home safely.

[Derek Ortt]

the 882 was at 700mb, amazing that the 700mb was less than 1km above the surface of the ocean, normally, its about 3km

[HURAKAN]

Both onboard Radar and Pressure Altimeters were reading about 2600ft in an nose-down attitude...when the 882 mb reading was taken...the pilots were fighting the turbulence to bring the plane back into a nose-up attitude...

This was the second fix into Wilma on that flight... the first fix was at 900mb when the pilots determined it was to strong of a storm to do Low-Level fixes....they then rose up to 700mb and still had a rough time dropping the sondes.... NHC wanted Eyewall-Eye-Eyewall for each of the fixes from that point on.... Wilma's eye was C4 (4mi circular) ...I think they missed a drop because of the short time and lack of eyewall distance...we almost lost the crew on that msn. Thankfully all returned home safely.

That was an amazing night that I will never forget.

[Aslkahuna]

Same thing nearly happened to the crew that fixed STY June at peak intensity in 1975. Like Wilma, June had a pinpoint eye (3 nm in diameter) barely large enough for the C-130 to turn around in. They never could get the sonde in the center and got the 876 mb reading in June under the inner edge of the eyewall. I talked the crew that made that flight and got the then record reading and they said that they got literally tossed out of the eye twice when they encountered the eyewall while trying to turn inside the eye. At the time extrapolation from the H7 height gave 857.7 mb as the MSLP but JT went with the 876 mb reading. Four years later while leafing through the reports from Tip at the AFGWC, I noted that one of the Tropical Mets had doen an extrapolation of Tip from the H7 height and had computed 864.4 mb as the MSLP. June was a large storm like Tip but peaked at at lower latitude (in fact, it FORMED around 6N and went south from there before turning NW). I still have a poor copy of the DMSP satellite shot showing June with that very small eye. In 1966, we almost lost a C-130 in STY Kit which was another very large storm with a miniscule eye except that there the aircraft became inverted and they recovered about some 500 feet aboce the ocean. Ironically, the first WPAC recon crew to be lost went down in STY Wilma near the Philippines in the 1950's. The last one lost was in TY Bess in the South China Sea in 1974.

Steve

[AtlanticWind]

Does Anybody know what was the largest wind field of at least cat 3 winds was in the atlantic ?

[Ptarmigan]

Same thing nearly happened to the crew that fixed STY June at peak intensity in 1975. Like Wilma, June had a pinpoint eye (3 nm in diameter) barely large enough for the C-130 to turn around in. They never could get the sonde in the center and got the 876 mb reading in June under the inner edge of the eyewall. I talked the crew that made that flight and got the then record reading and they said that they got literally tossed out of the eye twice when they encountered the eyewall while trying to turn inside the eye. At the time extrapolation from the H7 height gave 857.7 mb as the MSLP but JT went with the 876 mb reading. Four years later while leafing through the reports from Tip at the AFGWC, I noted that one of the Tropical Mets had doen an extrapolation of Tip from the H7 height and had computed 864.4 mb as the MSLP. June was a large storm like Tip but peaked at at lower latitude (in fact, it FORMED around 6N and went south from there before turning NW). I still have a poor copy of the DMSP satellite shot showing June with that very small eye. In 1966, we almost lost a C-130 in STY Kit which was another very large storm with a miniscule eye except that there the aircraft became inverted and they recovered about some 500 feet aboce the ocean. Ironically, the first WPAC recon crew to be lost went down in STY Wilma near the Philippines in the 1950's. The last one lost was in TY Bess in the South China Sea in 1974.

Steve

Interesting. How strong was the winds in STY June? Tip had 190 mph at its peak. I notice really intense hurricanes have pinhole eyes, like Wilma, Forrest, June, and Tip. Any reasons for that? I know Katrina had a large eye, which is unusual for an intense hurricane. If the 857.7 mb is official, than STY June would be the strongest on record. It's rather interesting that it was at its peak at a low latitude. I know in the Atlantic that has never happened, the closest being Ivan in 2004.

[Aslkahuna]

June was called at 160kt. It's not uncommon for storms to crank up at latitudes below 15N in WPAC. June peaked at 13N as did Rita in 1978 (878mb/155kt)-Rita BTW had a fairly sizeable eye. STY Gay peaked at 12N (872mb/160kt) and STY made landfall near Davao City at peak intensity of 130kt at a latitude below 8N.

Steve

[Normandy]

IMO its easy.

The 1935 Labor Day storm, the one that sandblasted people to death.

[AussieMark]

Same thing nearly happened to the crew that fixed STY June at peak intensity in 1975. Like Wilma, June had a pinpoint eye (3 nm in diameter) barely large enough for the C-130 to turn around in. They never could get the sonde in the center and got the 876 mb reading in June under the inner edge of the eyewall. I talked the crew that made that flight and got the then record reading and they said that they got literally tossed out of the eye twice when they encountered the eyewall while trying to turn inside the eye. At the time extrapolation from the H7 height gave 857.7 mb as the MSLP but JT went with the 876 mb reading. Four years later while leafing through the reports from Tip at the AFGWC, I noted that one of the Tropical Mets had doen an extrapolation of Tip from the H7 height and had computed 864.4 mb as the MSLP. June was a large storm like Tip but peaked at at lower latitude (in fact, it FORMED around 6N and went south from there before turning NW). I still have a poor copy of the DMSP satellite shot showing June with that very small eye. In 1966, we almost lost a C-130 in STY Kit which was another very large storm with a miniscule eye except that there the aircraft became inverted and they recovered about some 500 feet aboce the ocean. Ironically, the first WPAC recon crew to be lost went down in STY Wilma near the Philippines in the 1950's. The last one lost was in TY Bess in the South China Sea in 1974.

Steve

Interesting. How strong was the winds in STY June? Tip had 190 mph at its peak. I notice really intense hurricanes have pinhole eyes, like Wilma, Forrest, June, and Tip. Any reasons for that? I know Katrina had a large eye, which is unusual for an intense hurricane. If the 857.7 mb is official, than STY June would be the strongest on record. It's rather interesting that it was at its peak at a low latitude. I know in the Atlantic that has never happened, the closest being Ivan in 2004.

Joan in 1988 peaked at 145 mph at around 12N or something

[gatorcane]

IMO its easy.

The 1935 Labor Day storm, the one that sandblasted people to death.

Typhoon Tip. If you were to overlay it on the United States it would cover most of the Western 1/2 of the country. It was huge!