2024 ENSO Updates: El Niño ends / 65% of La Niña for JAS / ENSO Blog up

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Woofde
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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect

#361 Postby Woofde » Thu May 23, 2024 10:18 pm

skyline385 wrote:Relative ONI seems to be the same as SSTa - Global mean SSTa, which while introduced 2-3 years ago has so far failed to pick up. They make sense in a global warming world and I am in support of using them but we do need some actual studies on relative vs absolute indices and which are more accurate in predicting the atmospheric response and eventually for the official authorities to start using them. Until then, unfortunately they remain just one of out many indices which are used speculatively.
I've been thinking about RONI vs ONI a lot. After reading the paper by Oldenborgh who introduced the idea, it seemed to me that RONI is superior in certain areas while the traditional metric is better in others. The skill gap they described was very slight, with ONI leading in most ranges outside of JJA. One thing they noted was that a lot of the skill lost by RONI vs ONI was in the higher lattitudes. They considered this less significant, and as such RONI maybe a better candidate for atmospheric connections in the tropics.

As a very curious person I really wanted to know if RONI would be a better metric for the Atlantic hurricane season due to these supposed benefits over ONI. I already had a code project I had done in the past to compare how well certain metrics correlate with the Atlantic hurricane season. I figured I could hook in the RONI metric and see how it compared. Unfortunately, NOAA used a different data format, so it took me a few hours to clean the data and hook it up. I managed to get it working though.

I uploaded a screenshot of the output of the program. The program takes the data set and calculates a correlation value for the given array. I used the years 1967 (Reliable satellite data) to 2022 (Other metrics I had used for the program were lacking recent data when I ran it, so I had to trim to what was available. While I could've gotten it running using better tactics, I only have a few years of schooling for coding, it takes me time).

You can see from the output that RONI actually negatively correlates better than ONI. Originally I had used the Nino 3.4 data(not anomalies) so I was curious if maybe using the anomaly data itself would explain the difference. ONI had slightly correlation vs the actual raw SSTs, I imagine this is due to the ONI index changing with climatological norms. The RONI still correlates better however.

RONI appears at face value to correlate better with Atlantic hurricane activity. Now I'm not entirely sure as this could be a quirk of how RONI is calculated. Maybe the Atlantic tropical data is affecting the relative nature of RONI in a way that allows it to show an increase in correlation. I found it interesting none the less and figured I would share.

Oldenborgh paper if interested: (https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1 ... 326/abe9ed)Image
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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect

#362 Postby zzzh » Fri May 24, 2024 11:05 pm

Kingarabian wrote:It looks like a classic -PDO is setting up. Something we have not seen in a while despite the index being negative for the past few years. Waters are not just warm east of Japan but also NE of Hawaii. As well as a cold horseshoe off of NWAmerica.

Image
Image
Indeed.
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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect

#363 Postby cycloneye » Mon May 27, 2024 8:24 am

CPC weekly update has niño 3.4 at +0.2C, but El Niño officially will end on the update of June 13th.

https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/ ... ts-web.pdf

Image

Image
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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect

#364 Postby LarryWx » Mon May 27, 2024 10:36 am

cycloneye wrote:CPC weekly update has niño 3.4 at +0.2C, but El Niño officially will end on the update of June 13th.

https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/ ... ts-web.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/kwcwjok.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/xPcUAdH.jpeg


It is deceptive because after taking into account the very warm overall tropics (due mainly to GW), which is the idea behind the concept of RONI, Nino 3.4 anomaly is likely already near -0.5C.
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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect

#365 Postby cycloneye » Tue May 28, 2024 5:19 am

The Aussies have equal chance of Neutral and La Niña for ASO.

Image

Image

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/
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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect

#366 Postby LarryWx » Tue May 28, 2024 9:12 am

cycloneye wrote:The Aussies have equal chance of Neutral and La Niña for ASO.

https://i.imgur.com/yyoEegd.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/iCCl4FJ.jpeg

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/


1. Latest (5/25/24) BoM model run is similar to its prior run with only down to -0.07 for lowest ONI (not RONI) in autumn (SON).
But keep in mind that it had a large warm bias last year. Its 5/20/23 run had SON ONI way up at +2.53 or 0.75 warmer than +1.78 actual.
The next BoM run (6/3/23) had SON ONI even warmer (+2.73), which verified 0.95 too warm!

2. In stark contrast, the UKMET May of 2024 run has ASO ONI way down at -1.01 (though that’s actually significantly warmer than its prior run for JAS of -1.28).
But unlike the way too warm BoM, the May of 2023 UKMET run for ASO ONI was nearly spot on with its +1.84 prog, a mere 0.06 too warm.

3. So, between the latest BoM and UK, I heavily favor the latest UK to end up the closer of the two for this fall’s ONI. Not necessarily nearly spot on but at least closer. And keep in mind that RONI would undoubtedly be significantly cooler than ONI.
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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect

#367 Postby cycloneye » Wed May 29, 2024 7:50 am

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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect

#368 Postby Woofde » Thu May 30, 2024 12:37 pm

SOI is starting to respond, definitely moving towards Nina. Image
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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect

#369 Postby cycloneye » Thu May 30, 2024 12:42 pm

Woofde wrote:SOI is starting to respond, definitely moving towards Nina. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240530/f1fcb74d9bdc426c923a38363233135d.jpg


It was about time. It has been in negative all year until May 22nd.
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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect

#370 Postby LarryWx » Thu May 30, 2024 12:52 pm

cycloneye wrote:
Woofde wrote:SOI is starting to respond, definitely moving towards Nina. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240530/f1fcb74d9bdc426c923a38363233135d.jpg


It was about time. It has been in negative all year until May 22nd.


Strong El Nino based on ONI transitioning to La Nina:
2016: April -19; May +3
1998: April -22; May 0
1988: April -3; May +10
1983: April -16; May +6
1973: April -2; May +3

2010 was the main exception on timing in that it already was up to +12 in April. May was +11.

2024: April -6; May +3 to +4

So, 2024 fits the pattern well.
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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect

#371 Postby zzzh » Fri May 31, 2024 3:40 pm

 https://x.com/WorldClimateSvc/status/1796632232326488207



PDO off the chart :D , some warming is expected in the next 2 weeks as the MJO moves through and the subtropical ridge weakens.
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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect

#372 Postby Kingarabian » Fri May 31, 2024 4:08 pm

zzzh wrote: https://x.com/WorldClimateSvc/status/1796632232326488207



PDO off the chart :D , some warming is expected in the next 2 weeks as the MJO moves through and the subtropical ridge weakens.
This year the -PDO is bigger story than ENSO for the EPAC. Could see the slowest EPAC season since 2010.
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Re: RE: Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect

#373 Postby Woofde » Fri May 31, 2024 5:10 pm

zzzh wrote: https://x.com/WorldClimateSvc/status/1796632232326488207



PDO off the chart :D , some warming is expected in the next 2 weeks as the MJO moves through and the subtropical ridge weakens.
This combination of La Nina and -PDO has very interesting effects. They tend to modulate each other and cause a positive interaction, creating colder waters. You can see this effect very clearly in the climate models (NMME for example), those very warm anomalies in the EPAC are likely to erode away quite quickly.

This also has downstream effects on the Atlantic set up, usually leading to stronger ridging and thus storms going further west. Note the setup we are headed towards more closely resembles the CP La Nina in the graphic.ImageImageImage
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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect / CPC June update on the 13th

#374 Postby cycloneye » Mon Jun 03, 2024 8:19 am

CPC weekly update has niño 3.4 down to +0.1C.

The latest weekly
SST departures are:
Niño 4 0.7ºC
Niño 3.4 0.1ºC
Niño 3 -0.3ºC
Niño 1+2 -1.1ºC


https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/ ... ts-web.pdf
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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect / CPC June update on the 13th

#375 Postby LarryWx » Mon Jun 03, 2024 8:30 am

cycloneye wrote:CPC weekly update has niño 3.4 down to +0.1C.

The latest weekly
SST departures are:
Niño 4 0.7ºC
Niño 3.4 0.1ºC
Niño 3 -0.3ºC
Niño 1+2 -1.1ºC


https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/ ... ts-web.pdf


Reminder especially for new readers: though Nino 3.4 has +0.1, the relative version that would better take into account the surrounding very warm tropical waters worldwide and that would be more consistent with RONI is very likely much closer to -0.5 than +0.1.
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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect / CPC June update on the 13th

#376 Postby Ntxw » Mon Jun 03, 2024 10:17 am

LarryWx wrote:
cycloneye wrote:CPC weekly update has niño 3.4 down to +0.1C.

The latest weekly
SST departures are:
Niño 4 0.7ºC
Niño 3.4 0.1ºC
Niño 3 -0.3ºC
Niño 1+2 -1.1ºC


https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/ ... ts-web.pdf


Reminder especially for new readers: though Nino 3.4 has +0.1, the relative version that would better take into account the surrounding very warm tropical waters worldwide and that would be more consistent with RONI is very likely much closer to -0.5 than +0.1.


This is becoming more concerning to me regarding the global SSTA is warming at such a fast rate the 30 year averages are unable to keep up. So for many of the ENSO events, there will likely be discourse and what we thought of in the past, may become less and less of stable tool. Likely forecasting for hurricane season, winters, etc will become more difficult and ENSO behaviors will be in uncharted territory.
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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect / CPC June update on the 13th

#377 Postby weeniepatrol » Mon Jun 03, 2024 4:46 pm

CPC note a strengthening low-frequency signal (La Nina) as Pacific trades persist even with the MJO propagating eastward. RMM index has decreased as Indian Ocean convection continues. Indian westerlies have persisted since April; the anomalous lower convergence over the Maritime Continent (ie, anomalous rising air indicative of a stronger Walker cell) is very obvious.

Additionally, note the impressive -PDO anticyclone.

Image
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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect / CPC June update on the 13th

#378 Postby LarryWx » Mon Jun 03, 2024 8:24 pm

The all important RONI ONI difference for MAM is out: -0.64.

RONI +0.11
ONI +0.75

RONI ONI difference:
DJF: -0.58
JFM: -0.63
FMA: -0.66 (record low; records back to 1950)
MAM: -0.64

So, the difference is holding as we go toward La Niña. That’s why I’ve been saying that the equivalent RONI weeklies recently likely had already gotten to ~-0.5. Based on the dailies bouncing back slightly in recent days, I’d guess the equivalent RONI dailies have probably bounced back to the -0.4 to -0.3 vicinity.

RONI:
https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/data/indi ... .ascii.txt

ONI: https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/data/indi ... .ascii.txt
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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect / CPC June update on the 13th

#379 Postby cycloneye » Tue Jun 04, 2024 5:22 am

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Re: 2024 ENSO= BoM / CPC have La Niña watch in effect / CPC June update on the 13th

#380 Postby cycloneye » Tue Jun 04, 2024 10:38 am

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