Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#21 Postby Category5Kaiju » Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:06 am

Hypercane_Kyle wrote:Certainly memorable. Felt like a mix between 2017 and 2020. Very high quality season in terms of hurricanes; not a lot of slop. My prediction that we'd see a sub-900mb hurricane unfortunately verified, it seems to be a 20 year return period for one of those. It was very backloaded in a similar fashion to 2020 and gave Florida the most amount of beatings since 2004 with three hurricane landfalls. Beryl was probably the weirdest storm of the season.


Milton was arguably bizarre too given it was a Category 5 hurricane that, iirc, had the first recorded southeasterly movement, something a Cat 5 Atlantic storm never had historically.
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#22 Postby Hurricane2022 » Wed Nov 27, 2024 12:02 pm

Category5Kaiju wrote:
Hypercane_Kyle wrote:Certainly memorable. Felt like a mix between 2017 and 2020. Very high quality season in terms of hurricanes; not a lot of slop. My prediction that we'd see a sub-900mb hurricane unfortunately verified, it seems to be a 20 year return period for one of those. It was very backloaded in a similar fashion to 2020 and gave Florida the most amount of beatings since 2004 with three hurricane landfalls. Beryl was probably the weirdest storm of the season.


Milton was arguably bizarre too given it was a Category 5 hurricane that, iirc, had the first recorded southeasterly movement, something a Cat 5 Atlantic storm never had historically.

I guess Milton had the first SE movement as a C5 Hurricane in the N Hemisphere on record :lol: what a crazy season.
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#23 Postby Hurricane2022 » Sat Nov 30, 2024 3:28 pm

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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#24 Postby Category5Kaiju » Sat Nov 30, 2024 3:54 pm



Seeing Beryl and Milton not with the Category 5 purple bars just makes it seem so off lol
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#25 Postby WalterWhite » Sat Nov 30, 2024 5:43 pm


What we all thought 2024 will be like
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#26 Postby CrazyC83 » Sun Dec 01, 2024 5:52 pm

In some ways, 2024 had a North Indian feel, with a midseason lull and hyperactive endpoints.
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#27 Postby WalterWhite » Sun Dec 01, 2024 6:41 pm

These last few years (especially 2022 and 2024) make you think whether or not it is possible for the Atlantic to be too warm for activity. The activity levels for 2023 made sense; a record-warm Atlantic and a record-warm El Nino are opposing influences on hurricane season activity. But 2022 and 2024, despite their record-warm Atlantic SSTAs, failed to exhaust the main naming list, and 2024 only barely reached hyperactivity. (2022 was not even above-average.)

This is reminiscent of 2010, which, despite being a first-year La Nina with a record-warm Atlantic, only barely exceeded the hyperactive threshold. Perhaps an Atlantic that is too warm somehow stunts activity? I am not sure why this would be the case as more thermal energy in the Atlantic means more kinetic energy for tropical cyclones.
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#28 Postby Hurricane2022 » Sun Dec 01, 2024 7:22 pm

WalterWhite wrote:These last few years (especially 2022 and 2024) make you think whether or not it is possible for the Atlantic to be too warm for activity. The activity levels for 2023 made sense; a record-warm Atlantic and a record-warm El Nino are opposing influences on hurricane season activity. But 2022 and 2024, despite their record-warm Atlantic SSTAs, failed to exhaust the main naming list, and 2024 only barely reached hyperactivity. (2022 was not even above-average.)

This is reminiscent of 2010, which, despite being a first-year La Nina with a record-warm Atlantic, only barely exceeded the hyperactive threshold. Perhaps an Atlantic that is too warm somehow stunts activity? I am not sure why this would be the case as more thermal energy in the Atlantic means more kinetic energy for tropical cyclones.

The issue of 2022 was the very warm subtropics that very likely caused the holy "wavebreaking", and the main reason for this "small bust" occurring this year was the too far-north ITCZ.
2024 still managed to reach hyperactive status with historic storms like Beryl (strongest storm ever onserved in the months of June and July), Helene (Third-costliest storm ever recorded) and Milton (Extremely rare sub-900 mb MH that affected Tampa), 3 active hurricanes in October (K, L & M) and more.

2022 had Ian and Fiona. :)

So the problem here likely isn't ONLY the Record-Breaking SSTs, as we saw in 2023.
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#29 Postby Category5Kaiju » Sun Dec 01, 2024 8:48 pm

WalterWhite wrote:These last few years (especially 2022 and 2024) make you think whether or not it is possible for the Atlantic to be too warm for activity. The activity levels for 2023 made sense; a record-warm Atlantic and a record-warm El Nino are opposing influences on hurricane season activity. But 2022 and 2024, despite their record-warm Atlantic SSTAs, failed to exhaust the main naming list, and 2024 only barely reached hyperactivity. (2022 was not even above-average.)

This is reminiscent of 2010, which, despite being a first-year La Nina with a record-warm Atlantic, only barely exceeded the hyperactive threshold. Perhaps an Atlantic that is too warm somehow stunts activity? I am not sure why this would be the case as more thermal energy in the Atlantic means more kinetic energy for tropical cyclones.


You're right in questioning that the Atlantic being too warm stunts activity. Because chances are...it's not. Rather, 2022 and 2024 saw some unique intraseasonal factors that put a damper on the total potential activity. For 2022, the MDR wasn't exactly record-breaking warm, but the extratropics warmed up like crazy, and a cool Canary Current caused the basin to experience rampant mid-level dry air. For this year, the extratropics warmed up significantly yet again, and the waves were coming off of Africa at too north of a latitude (this was also something that 2019 also suffered, right before Dorian and the subsequent storms). So, there are certainly some similarities between 2022 and 2024 (and differences of course), but none of them have anything to do with the tropical Atlantic being warm. They're more configurational issues.

If I remember correctly, 2010 was a strong La Nina year, and in terms of total Atlantic activity, it's interesting to note that historically, weak La Nina years tend to be more active than strong La Nina years. Exactly why is unknown.
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#30 Postby tolakram » Mon Dec 02, 2024 7:55 am

Ocean temperatures are just part of the equation, and fixation on just ocean temps will lead to all kinds of wrong conclusions in my opinion.
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#31 Postby CrazyC83 » Mon Dec 02, 2024 4:13 pm

My estimate for the peak intensities for each storm (Alberto and Chris are TCR confirmed):

Alberto - 45 kt / 992 mb

Beryl - 145 kt / 932 mb
* Based on the pressure trends around 1200Z July 2. Confidence is not high enough to go up to 150 kt. Landfall in Texas estimated at 75 kt / 979 mb.

Chris - 40 kt / 1005 mb

Debby - 70 kt / 978 mb
* Pressure based on 979/14 about 3 hours before landfall. Landfall in Florida estimated at 65 kt / 983 mb. Recon data filled in a bit before landfall (last was 982) and the land data was really pedestrian, hence I think it weakened a bit on final approach.

Ernesto - 90 kt / 967 mb
* Pressure based on 968/14 at 1200Z August 16. Winds based on a blend of concurrent reading of 98 kt at 700 mb and a NOAA P-3 measuring 107 kt at 750 mb, with the highest reliable SFMR being around 80-85 kt.

Francine - 85 kt / 971 mb
* Pressure based on 972/8 at time of landfall. No changes to winds, which seem reasonable.

Gordon - 45 kt / 1003 mb
* Based on an ASCAT pass of 40 kt and its low resolution.

Helene - 125 kt / 938 mb
* Winds based on 136 kt at 700 mb (122 kt at surface) and radar data supporting about 160 kt at 850 mb (128 kt at surface; the SFMR is ignored due to shallow water). Pressure appears reasonable based on data just inland. Peak intensity was at Florida landfall.

Isaac - 90 kt / 968 mb
* No changes from operational. Peaked between T5.0 and T5.5, but cooler water at high latitude may have prevented mixing so going with the lower end.

Joyce - 50 kt / 1000 mb
* Based on a blend of an ASCAT pass of 42 kt, AMSU readings of 55 kt and Dvorak estimates between T3.0 and T3.5.

Kirk - 135 kt / 926 mb
* Based on a blend of various Dvorak estimates between T6.5 and T7.0.

Leslie - 100 kt / 964 mb
* Based on Dvorak estimates largely near T5.5 at 0000Z October 10.

Milton - 155 kt / 897 mb
* Based on the flight finding that intensity at around 2200Z October 7. An argument could be made that it peaked earlier, however, I don't think that was the case as that flight found a 4 nm circular eye, then the next pass (around 0000Z October 8) found concentric eyewalls, suggesting it peaked at that exact moment. Landfall estimated at 100 kt / 957 mb based on radar and surface data.

Nadine - 50 kt / 1000 mb
* No changes from operational. Based on aircraft data and slow strengthening after last pass.

Oscar - 85 kt / 978 mb
* Based on continued satellite improvement at Cuban landfall (T4.5-5.0) after last Recon pass a few hours earlier finding 986/19 (supporting 984 mb) and about 75 kt winds at the time.

Patty - 55 kt / 982 mb
* No changes from operational. Supported by an ASCAT pass.

Rafael - 105 kt / 956 mb
* No changes from operational. Occurred at Gulf peak - Dvorak was higher (T6.0) but aircraft before and after ran a little below the satellite estimates.

Sara - 50 kt / 995 mb
* Occurred around 1800Z November 15. There was a long period without Recon, ASCAT had 40 kt later when it was weakening and this was when it looked best.
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#32 Postby ljmac75 » Mon Dec 02, 2024 6:56 pm

I've come up with some subjective superlatives for this year's storms:

Worst looking storm: Sara
Storm most likely to be compared to Katrina: Helene
Storm most likely to be compared to Andrew: Milton
Storm most likely to be compared to Irma: Beryl
Best looking storm that stayed out at sea: Kirk
Storm most likely to be retired: Helene
Storm most likely to be retired whose retirement is not pretty much a given: Debby
Storm least likely to have been noticed prior to the satellite era: Patty
Storm whose landfall intensity will cause the most arguments: Helene
Overall Storm of the Year: Milton

Add your own if you want.
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#33 Postby Teban54 » Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:44 am

ljmac75 wrote:I've come up with some subjective superlatives for this year's storms:

Worst looking storm: Sara
Storm most likely to be compared to Katrina: Helene
Storm most likely to be compared to Andrew: Milton
Storm most likely to be compared to Irma: Beryl
Best looking storm that stayed out at sea: Kirk
Storm most likely to be retired: Helene
Storm most likely to be retired whose retirement is not pretty much a given: Debby
Storm least likely to have been noticed prior to the satellite era: Patty
Storm whose landfall intensity will cause the most arguments: Helene
Overall Storm of the Year: Milton

Add your own if you want.

My opinions:

Most surprising storm: Beryl
Storm whose peak intensity will cause the most debates: Kirk
Biggest overachiever: Milton (honorable mentions for Beryl and Isaac)
Biggest underachiever: Sara (honorable mention for Gordon)
Most overshadowed storm, in terms of meteorology: Rafael
Most overshadowed storm, in terms of US impacts: Beryl (its Caribbean impacts are a whole other story though)
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#34 Postby ncforecaster89 » Wed Dec 04, 2024 9:53 am

CrazyC83 wrote:My estimate for the peak intensities for each storm (Alberto and Chris are TCR confirmed):

Helene - 125 kt / 938 mb
* Winds based on 136 kt at 700 mb (122 kt at surface) and radar data supporting about 160 kt at 850 mb (128 kt at surface; the SFMR is ignored due to shallow water). Pressure appears reasonable based on data just inland. Peak intensity was at Florida landed.


Hi Crazy, I appreciate your analysis and the time you invest in putting together your assessments.

As far as Helene is concerned, I’m confident that it weakened prior to landfall and was more than likely a 110 kt Cat 3 as opposed to the operationally assessed 120 kt Cat 4.

First, I can’t find the VDM containing the 136 kt FLW mentioned in the 11 pm EDT advisory by the NHC. Thus, I’m not sure the actual time that specific measurement was obtained? If it was taken within the last 30 minutes before landfall, we can use it to determine the intensity estimate. If not, the latest one I could locate was 129 kt at 931 pm EDT.

Regardless, there’s no doubt in my mind that the standard 90% rule wasn’t applicable in this particular case. The convection had significantly weakened in the SE quadrant within the last hour or two preceding landfall. As such, I’d use a possibly generous 85% factor. That would equate to an intensity estimate of either 115 or 110 kt.

I’d really like to see what the WL150 readings were to get a better idea of how well the FLWs were translating to the surface. Again, it certainly wasn’t as efficient as usual. That was most obvious on the ground in both actual wind measurements, as well as the structural and tree damage that was arguably closer to a Cat 2 than Cat 4. This was also supported by the relatively lackluster SFMR readings, that although pretty untrustworthy, they are generally inflated by shoaling…not the other way around.

The actual barometric pressure observations very near the point of landfall clearly show Helene was on the decline by the time it crossed the coastline at 1110 pm EDT. To be specific, a lowest observed pressure of 942.8 mb was recorded just 6 n mi from the landfall point and a whole 2 minutes after landfall occurred. Based on this in-situ data, the lowest possible pressure one could reasonably argue would be 941mb.

The observed wind speed measurements just inland of the coastline were pretty pedestrian for a supposed Cat 4 hurricane…especially one moving at such an anomalously fast translational speed, no less.

Lastly, the infrared satellite imagery shows a markedly degrading appearance on final approach to landfall…with warming CDO convection and filling of the eye. Similarly, the radar presentation also matched this significant weakening in the SE quadrant where the highest FLW was observed.

Taken altogether, it’s fairly obvious that Helene weakened rather substantially in the last 1 to 2 hours prior to landfall and didn’t possess the standard 10% FLW to surface ratio, as a result of weakening and relatively sparse convection in the SE eyewall that inhibited an efficient transport of those winds to the ground. At most, Helene was very likely no stronger than 115 kt/941 mb at landfall, although I’d lean to 110 kt, myself.

https://www.weather.gov/source/tae/Trop ... essure.csv
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#35 Postby ljmac75 » Wed Dec 04, 2024 4:00 pm

ncforecaster89 wrote:
CrazyC83 wrote:My estimate for the peak intensities for each storm (Alberto and Chris are TCR confirmed):

Helene - 125 kt / 938 mb
* Winds based on 136 kt at 700 mb (122 kt at surface) and radar data supporting about 160 kt at 850 mb (128 kt at surface; the SFMR is ignored due to shallow water). Pressure appears reasonable based on data just inland. Peak intensity was at Florida landed.


Hi Crazy, I appreciate your analysis and the time you invest in putting together your assessments.

As far as Helene is concerned, I’m confident that it weakened prior to landfall and was more than likely a 110 kt Cat 3 as opposed to the operationally assessed 120 kt Cat 4.


With these messages in mind here is my prediction for the Helene TCR:

The NHC will decide on a landfall intensity based on aircraft recon, radar readings, surface observations, and satellite data. From all this data, the NHC will determine if the storm was a category 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 at landfall. They will then put this in the TCR. Also, they will include estimates for peak storm surge, total damage, and the number of fatalities as a result of the storm.

I also predict that--after the TCR is posted--people who agree with the NHC's estimated landfall intensity will make posts saying they agree with the estimate in the report, and people who disagree with it will make posts saying they disagree with the estimate in the report.

(Being serious for a second the VDM with a 136kt fl wind is here, measurement was taken about an hour before the eyewall started moving ashore: https://aircraft.myfoxhurricane.com/rec ... 43-136(139)-)

(Being serious for another second I believe the NHC mentioned at some point that the data from SFMR was determined to have been unreliable for the first half of the hurricane season, which may apply to Helene)
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#36 Postby ncforecaster89 » Wed Dec 04, 2024 6:27 pm

ljmac75 wrote:With these messages in mind here is my prediction for the Helene TCR:

The NHC will decide on a landfall intensity based on aircraft recon, radar readings, surface observations, and satellite data. From all this data, the NHC will determine if the storm was a category 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 at landfall. They will then put this in the TCR. Also, they will include estimates for peak storm surge, total damage, and the number of fatalities as a result of the storm.

I also predict that--after the TCR is posted--people who agree with the NHC's estimated landfall intensity will make posts saying they agree with the estimate in the report, and people who disagree with it will make posts saying they disagree with the estimate in the report.

(Being serious for a second the VDM with a 136kt fl wind is here, measurement was taken about an hour before the eyewall started moving ashore: https://aircraft.myfoxhurricane.com/rec ... 43-136(139)-)

(Being serious for another second I believe the NHC mentioned at some point that the data from SFMR was determined to have been unreliable for the first half of the hurricane season, which may apply to Helene)


Hi jmac, I appreciate the link. I may be overlooking something, but the site is only showing the latest VDM as the 26th/00:49z VDM issuance. The NHC archive, itself, has the last one as 27th/02:10z…which had a peak FLW of 129 kt as of 01:31z. Consequently, I’m still wondering where they got the 136 kt FLW and at what time, specifically.

https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/recon/2024/REPNT2/
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#37 Postby Ptarmigan » Wed Dec 04, 2024 10:50 pm

tolakram wrote:Ocean temperatures are just part of the equation, and fixation on just ocean temps will lead to all kinds of wrong conclusions in my opinion.


It would be interesting to see ocean temperature gradients between let say Tropical Atlantic and Temperate Atlantic or Arctic Ocean. I would also look at the Mediterranean Sea. Another one to look at is the Quasi-biennial Oscillation (QBO).

Quasi-biennial Oscillation (QBO)
https://acd-ext.gsfc.nasa.gov/Data_serv ... o/qbo.html

It would be helpful to look at position of the Intertropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ). We know that was a factor in 2024. I would like to look at monsoonal patterns around the world. Monsoons do play a role in tropical development.

Of course we cannot predict the position of ITCZ over time. ITCZ position is likely tied to water temperature. A warmer Mediterranean is likely to pull the ITCZ further north.
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#38 Postby al78 » Wed Dec 11, 2024 9:52 am

Upper tropospheric temperatures were warmer than normal across much of the tropical Atlantic in August which would have at least partially offset the normally enhanced instability from very warm SSTs.
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#39 Postby jconsor » Mon Dec 16, 2024 5:16 am

Dr. Phil Klotzbach's thoughts on the unusual nature of the 2024 season and recent hurricane trends:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukV2vL- ... icaneTrack
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Re: Thoughts on the 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

#40 Postby WalterWhite » Mon Dec 16, 2024 7:05 pm

al78 wrote:Upper tropospheric temperatures were warmer than normal across much of the tropical Atlantic in August which would have at least partially offset the normally enhanced instability from very warm SSTs.

Could this mean that, in the long term, global warming could cause hurricane seasons to be LESS active? Air has a way lower specific heat capacity than water, so the atmosphere would warm faster than the oceans.
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