CSU's Klotzbach Addresses Lack of Hurricane Activity

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#21 Postby senorpepr » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:16 pm

Thanks for your comments, Frank. You make an outstanding point--the public interpretation should always come first. ...and that brings up the problem we face: the perception of the season will always outweigh the numbers. 1992 will always be perceived as a bad year (rightfully so), even if the numbers don't support that theory... and vice versa. With that vice versa breeds complacency. (Then again, doesn't everything ;) )

That's what I'm concerned for this season. People are already turning their backs to the season, but the real season hasn't started yet. We can't convince everyone, but if we can get someone to remain vigilant, we've made a positive contribution.
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Re: CSU's Klotzbach Addresses Lack of Hurricane Activity

#22 Postby ColinDelia » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:18 pm

Is it really that there are poor upper level conditions Atlantic wide for this time of year so far or that there just happen to have been ULLs near developing cyclones and it was more chance than anything else? Is there something going on Atlantic-wide that we can expect to persist?
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#23 Postby ConvergenceZone » Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:38 pm

I imagine based upon the lack of anything organized out there right now and no global models pointing to anything developing, that we will probably go into a lull for a week or two. After that, maybe THEN the lid will finally come off....

I think we will get our 5th storm before August is over, and MAYBE 6th....
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Re: CSU's Klotzbach Addresses Lack of Hurricane Activity

#24 Postby HurricaneJoe22 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:02 pm

This season is like the Money Pit (80s Tom Hanks/Shelley Long film). Remember the contractor kept saying "Two weeks" when they asked how long it would take to finish redoing the house? I think some people are feeling "Anna's" frustration:

Walter (Tom Hanks): It's a big house, we'll divide it up! You stay in your half, I'll stay in mine!
Anna (Shelley Long): That is such a dumb idea. Sometimes it amazes me you ever passed the bar.
Walter: I'm sure it does, you've never passed a bar in you life.
Anna: You are so much less attractive when I'm sober.
Walter: Thank goodness it's not that often.
Anna: [yelling] All right, that's it! I've had it with you, and the house, and Max, and the orchestra and everything! How long will it take to put this house together?
Curly: Two weeks.
[Walter and all the workers start laughing]

Personally, I think we're just a short time away from seeing better conditions for these promising systems and a lot more of them will develop into storms and hurricanes. And if we have a lot of late-season activity, then we should reach the mid- to upper teens in number of storms. I also predict at least one catastrophic U.S. hit from a Cat 3 or above.
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#25 Postby KWT » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:04 pm

Its a very interesting article but its ignoring the simple fact that this year the TUTT has been solid...and really if it sticks in the place where it has the only system that will really have a snhot at anything too strong will be the deep Caribbean cruisers...

I think there is a delicate balance to be made here between ignoring what is clearly happening out there (something isn't right clearly!) but also going way too negative and making comparasions to 2009.

I think Klotzbach makes a very good point when he mentions 1961...this is a season I've been mentioning OVER and OVER again on here to people who think that if we don't have something by 'X' date the seasons a bust.

Things can change very quickly in the tropics...if you want proof...look at the EPAC in June and compare it to July...

What I will say is we are very close now to the time where 18NS becomes near impossible...not quite there yet but close...
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Re: CSU's Klotzbach Addresses Lack of Hurricane Activity

#26 Postby cycloneye » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:08 pm

What I will say is we are very close now to the time where 18NS becomes near impossible...not quite there yet but close...


That is August 21rst?
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#27 Postby KWT » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:13 pm

Nah a little earlier then that, about the 15-17th is that timeframe, it gets shunted back if TD5 provides a surprise but we are days away from that becoming a bg ask...only 2005 and 1969 type second half of the season could now provide whats needed...and both were WAY more favourable then what we are seeing now.

However seasons like 98/99/61 show why we can't rule out a season this early, thats just begging to get egg on the face so to speak!
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#28 Postby weatherwindow » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:38 pm

KWT wrote:Its a very interesting article but its ignoring the simple fact that this year the TUTT has been solid...and really if it sticks in the place where it has the only system that will really have a snhot at anything too strong will be the deep Caribbean cruisers...

I think there is a delicate balance to be made here between ignoring what is clearly happening out there (something isn't right clearly!) but also going way too negative and making comparasions to 2009.

I think Klotzbach makes a very good point when he mentions 1961...this is a season I've been mentioning OVER and OVER again on here to people who think that if we don't have something by 'X' date the seasons a bust.

Things can change very quickly in the tropics...if you want proof...look at the EPAC in June and compare it to July...

What I will say is we are very close now to the time where 18NS becomes near impossible...not quite there yet but close...

here is a thought...could there be, in the set of high ssta years, a threshold ridge strength below which the positive impact on tropical cyclone formation stemming from increases in ssta(due to a weakened trade wind regime) and low mslp would be offset by the increased incidence of TUTTs and ULL(due to the spotty ridge)?...just trying to tie up a loose end:)....2010...persistent tutts and ull, toasty ssts, low mslp, and unimpressive atl trop activity?
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#29 Postby KWT » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:50 pm

Nah I don't think so, becuase there have been other high SSTA seasons that have managed to produce big seasons without any real major TUTT issues.

I do wonder whether something globally is up, becuase the whole of the N.Hemisphere is reallt struggling....it reminds me alot of the mid 70s which was when the PDO shifted last time before we settled down again, maybe this is a time of global flux and change and this is having a real effect in how the tropics are functioning...

FWIW someone on another board made a very good point, N.Atlantic instalbity is much lower then normal, this maybe why systems have struggled to hold it together and why several systems like 93L/TD2 couldn't quite make the cut.
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#30 Postby Steve » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:04 pm

My only bone in the debate has been to confront the endless barrage of season cancel posts in every thread. Since there is a new, dedicated thread from the foremost tropical expert on the planet, I'm going to put some things to bed. First of all, I never made any seasonal predictions of numbers or any of that. I didn't even read the "guess how many storms are going to be this year" thread. I have no dog in that battle and nothing with any numbers game stakes to defend. Having said that, there are issues that would lead one to believe that we're in for a bumpy-*** ride over the next 6 to possibly 8 weeks.

1) Too many upper level lows!
Wrong. For probably the 10th time in the last two weeks, I'm going to put it out there: Concentric, Upper-Level Lows migrating east to west across the Atlantic Basin are often a sign of an above-average landfalling, US Season. Rather than what you see in El Nino years, these types of lows and their migration are more often seen in Neutral (including transitional) and particularly La Nina seasons. It's not a hard rule, but it's an indication. And when they plow west across the water and ultimately into Texas or Mexico, that's a sign that you will probably see some western based tracks. The summer pattern has not sufficiently transitioned yet to garner multiple hurricanes and major storms. They're coming. And anyone who says they aren't is fooling themselves.

2) Posters keep delaying the expected on-set of tropical weather. This has been a repeated mantra on the forums this season. "You said two weeks ago in a few weeks." This is a ridiculous argument being parlayed around and would only be expected from a tropical watching novice. I think a lot of people using that argument are having Tropical ADD issues. Find an extra hobby or something. The season will be ramping up, (e.g. it's coming) on nature's terms. Go find the bell curve if you've never seen it because the climb doesn't really start for another couple of days. And it doesn't peak for a month. Here's another hint: La Nina seasons often go a little later into the calendar year than neutral.

3) There's something this year that just isn't right!
This is a wrong assessment for early-mid August (could be valid by November though). There's nothing wrong. Atmospheric conditions are rarely ever such that you get any major-league systems in June or July. I cited the two I could think of off the top of my head last night - Dennis in 2005 (July) and Audrey in 1957 (June I'm pretty sure). Someone else chimed in Allen (think the discussion carried to August 10th, since it was yesterday). Maybe there are one or two other, US landfalling early-August majors that I can't think of. But that isn't a particularly large sample. June and October generally feature sheared out hybrid systems butted up to upper level lows and shear zones. This is to be expected on some level until the conditions ripen. Just because the SST's are there, or the energy is there, or the shear is low or whatever doesn't mean that you're going to get a named storm out of a mass or invest. Sometimes you will, sometimes you won't. But you wouldn't have seen many by now anyway, so we're not on any type of deviation from the normal season. Several pro mets have chimed in on the forum with their thoughts. Could they all be wrong? Possibly. Are they, doubtful? Klotzbach chimed in today. Bastardi gave his hint away on 8/5 or 8/8 that he wasn't changing his forecast at all. Now he's known to be hard-headed, but he's increasingly bullish on the season. He will have a full update on August 18th. Remember, he's calling for 8 US Landfall impacts (5 of which are hurricanes). We haven't even seen the first of those 5 hurricane impacts yet. In the meantime, his corporation put this out today for consumption (see below).

In the meantime, I wish people wouldn't be all nervous about the season being boring. There have been enough teases that haven't amounted to a whole lot that many of us are thankful for but perhpas has helped whet our appetites for something a little more. But at the same time, I can do without losing all my stuff again (not that I ever much replaced anything, but what I do have I don't want to lose), I can do without 15-20 hour evacuations on the fly. I can do without long power outages ('05, '08), moldy sheetrock ('05), lines at the gas station and the other usual headaches. So don't anyone go classifying me as a doomcaster. I'm a realist. And what I see is the bigger picture.

From Accu:

hile it seems like the hurricane season has been average so far, the storms we have seen are indicators that this will be a major hurricane season.

"We've already seen some activity... when we do see a system that comes through early, like Alex did... that's an indicator that there are variables out there that are favorable for an active season," AccuWeather.com Meteorologist Mark Mancuso said.

Traditionally, seasons that are considered "active" in terms of tropical storms or hurricanes produce their biggest storms in the later part of the season, from mid-August and through September. This means that we are on the cusp of a season that could have 18-21 named storms, with at least eight impacts.

AccuWeather.com Chief Hurricane Meteorologist Joe Bastardi said he expects an influx of storms to begin Aug. 20.

He said, "An upcoming frenzy of storms, days with two or three storms on the chart, will take the current perceived lack of storms up very quickly."

According to Bastardi, of the tropical systems that have moved through thus far, four have forced tropical storm watches on portions of the U.S. coast, and most of those also put tropical storm-force winds along the impacted coasts.

Mancuso said there are many factors that are taken into consideration when planning a hurricane forecast.

Some indicators that we are going to have a very active season include an Atlantic cycle that is bringing warm weather to the East Coast, a La Nina trend that is producing weaker winds in the upper atmosphere, and warm sea surface temperatures in the tropics and Atlantic.

Mancuso also said that the waves coming off Africa are more pronounced, and when they hit the combination of factors-warm water temperatures, weak trade winds and pressure systems in the tropics-there is a greater chance for them to develop into storms.

Bastardi said that the weather "pattern becomes more conducive for development" beginning around the latter part of August.

Mancuso agreed, saying, "We don't typically expect to see things ramp until the end of August, beginning of September."

While some may be relaxing because the heart of the season is just beginning, Mancuso encouraged people not to let down their guard. He said, "It only takes one, in your area, to be the worst hurricane season ever."
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#31 Postby KWT » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:17 pm

Very interesting post Steve, a few points I would like to make.

Firstly the first point you make is certainly something that would make sense...BUT the big problem with it is it assumes those ULL/TUTT production train stops soon...I'm not totally convinced it does, its been very stubborn and reminds me a heck of a lot of 2007...anythin that comes at the east coast IMO from 20N before 65-70W is going to struggle, thats the pattern we saw repeated over and over again in 2007.

As for the 2nd point, your exactly right about that, we've had 3NS which is about average. I suspect thats about average for La Nina seasons as well though it does need to pick up soon to be fair if we aren't going to fall behind.

Now the 3rd point, once again I do agree that this is nothing too much out of the average...the problem is the agencies are widely calling for between say 17-20NS...you must, simply must have more then what we have now to achieve those sorts of numbers...as I said 18NS now is just about out of the question IMO and will bust...

Now that doesn't mean the season busts, just the forecast...and if the TUTT stays in its current position we probably will not get close to the major hurricane call either.

My biggest fear this season is if we repeat 2007 but there is a weakness present, enough of a weakness to make the US at real risk. I suspect also an October major hurricane is highly possible in the Caribbean and given the ridging will be stronger I suspect by then as the QBO starts to flip we may see a real threat to the states from that angle as well...

However 18/10/5 IMO busts...but frankly you don't need to come close to that figure to have a spectular season with multiple major hurricane threats.

ps, I'm not backing down from my 20-25th period that I've been highlighting in threads, still no more then hints from the models but we will see!
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Re:

#32 Postby Ptarmigan » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:24 pm

KWT wrote:Nah a little earlier then that, about the 15-17th is that timeframe, it gets shunted back if TD5 provides a surprise but we are days away from that becoming a bg ask...only 2005 and 1969 type second half of the season could now provide whats needed...and both were WAY more favourable then what we are seeing now.

However seasons like 98/99/61 show why we can't rule out a season this early, thats just begging to get egg on the face so to speak!


I think this season could very well be like 1961, 1998, and 1999.

Guess what? 1961, 1998, and 1999 were devastating seasons. 1998 is the deadliest season besides 1780 and 1900 because of Mitch that claimed 19,000 lives. :eek: :cry:
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Re: CSU's Klotzbach Addresses Lack of Hurricane Activity

#33 Postby Ptarmigan » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:29 pm

Steve nailed it right on. ULL contributes to a wet summer for Texas. That is rather worrisome because I noticed if July is wetter, there is a correlation for major hurricanes to make landfall. Case in point, 1900, 1942, and 1961. They were wet July's likely from ULL. Guess what came, the Great Galveston Hurricane, a major hurricane in August of 1942 that came in late August, and Carla in September. I still think this season will be active in fact I can think it could be prolonged from late August to November.
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Re: Re:

#34 Postby KWT » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:38 pm

Ptarmigan wrote:
I think this season could very well be like 1961, 1998, and 1999.


Oh I agree with this, I think this season probably won't match the high numbers being touted about at least in terms of NS but really if the conditions do turn more favourable then the storms won't keep meeting the same end.

Its the Caribbean I'm most concerned about, in all three of those seasons it had quite a noteable system either come from there or form from there.
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Re: CSU's Klotzbach Addresses Lack of Hurricane Activity

#35 Postby tolakram » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:57 pm

AccuWeather.com Chief Hurricane Meteorologist Joe Bastardi said he expects an influx of storms to begin Aug. 20.


Well ok then. :ggreen:

I've done my share of making fun of this season, but I think the real truth here is the same as it has been every year I've been here, at least.

Schools is starting back up soon and people (that go to school) want action before the school season starts. It's always nicer around here once people (that go to school *cough*) are busy doing other things.

Did I drop enough hints?
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Re: CSU's Klotzbach Addresses Lack of Hurricane Activity

#36 Postby EDR1222 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:08 pm

We could easily look back at the 2004 season. Obviously it wasn't a La Nina season, but we didn't see Alex unti the very end of July. I remember many here on the board were cancelling the season before Alex formed. Everyone remembers what happened after that.
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#37 Postby KWT » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:13 pm

I still like to use 1961 as an example to those that use the idea that a season must have a certain number of storms by a certain date otherwise its clearly a bust is such a terrible idea.

I mean imagine what would happen if there was nothing in August and just 1NS before the 1st September...
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#38 Postby Steve » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:40 pm

Thanks PT. Those are some alarming years. I don't know if there are any studies on rain Texas Julys and incidences of major-impact storm hits there, but you've put out some food for thought. As it is, we had a solid Cat-2 hit not all that far south of the border.
---------------------------------
KWT,

It's ****ing me off that I can't find any season-long moves/loops of water vapor for any of the years I want to reference. Actually, I can't find anything longer than a couple of days. I came to understand that 12 or 13 years ago when Joe B talked about it, so I committed it to memory and started watching for it again. I did a longer piece for PR a few days ago, but the circular lows in combination with Atlantic TUTTs can be mixed signals. And as it is, we're in a transitional year. You're not seeing the pronounced trough splits or their opposite, the progressive troughs as you would expect in established La Nina and El Nino seasons respectively. Since we're still transitioning, there are different indications. But seeing the circular ULLs as opposed to more oblong ones, and certainly watching them migrate the way they are migrating indicates a potential western reach of surface features down the road. Time will tell. And although I haven't come out and said I thought "x" number of named storms would be in the cards this year, I'm not going to lie and say that I haven't thrown something into the mix - and that is a season at least in part with a Western Bias. I'm standing by that, because with the exception of Collin, that's what it's been so far (not unusual early in the season to be fair). It may be that the upper-teens/low 20's forecasts bust. But does it really matter if we end up at least a few storms above the norm? I think we'd all agree that seasonal forecasting is far from an exact science. And if the predictors indicate an above average season, and we get that to at least a measurable degree, then we're making progress in that field.

I think it's great. And I'm all for bashing the experts (or at least their forecasts) if they are way out of line and can't uncover a valid explanation. Maybe it turns out to be SAL. Maybe we had an event like Monserrat (1997) or Mount Pinatubo (1991) that potentially altered the overall climate for a while. Variables happen. And I'm a willing listener if they can pinpoint them. After all, there are never any guarantees of a tomorrow. **** is going to happen. That's just the way things are. But if they are dead wrong and end up smug about it, then let the dogs out on 'em. I still appreciate the research and effort that goes in to trying to quantify a set of factors into reasonable predictors, but I don't want to hear it if some expert called for 3 storms and there were 15 or vice versa and they don't want to own up to it.

As for this forum, lay posters are guessing at best. So what if someone ends up being right or close? If a few score of people put out different guesses (again, I didn't read the thread so I don't know how many people participated), at least some are bound to end up close. That probably owes as much to luck as it does to having an independent feel for the season. And what of the poster that gets it closest? It doesn't mean anything. It's not even for a cookie. You win and that's it. It certainly doesn't buy anyone any credibility (or e-credibility as it were). That comes from quality over time. Hell, I can recall like back in '96 when I found John and Mike's site (flhurricane.com) and realized what a great resource the web could be. Hey, most of us started out with a link to some satellite FTP server or whatever, but now we've got access to stuff most forecasters didn't have at their fingertips 10 years ago. So we should be improving. I mean there will always be new players to the game so to speak, and you deal with that! "Are we clear here in South Texas (or Newfoundland or wherever) from that storm just passing 35W?!?!?! But for long established posters, you'd like to think that quality input (and that means being willing to be WAY WRONG more than you're right - AND owning up to it) means something. Hey, I know I ain't ****. But if I decide to be active in a particular thread or conversation, I would like to think that I bring some value. No, I don't have any formal training. No, I'm just like everyone else. But I've been watching stuff long enough to know that I don't have all the answers. And because I got Lili's landfall right in 2002 over what Gary Gray and Joe Bastardi put out there, good for me. It, in and of itself, was no accomplishment, and didn't buy me credibility. The moral of that is anyone actively seeking e-validation should re-think harping on the same things over and over again and be open to learning something new. I mean, hell, even in completely dead seasons, we're going to learn something new without really trying that hard.
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#39 Postby Steve » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:43 pm

>>Did I drop enough hints?

LMAO. Actually, getting out of school was one of the reasons that as a kid, I always cheered for systems that never came. I hated school REALLY hated it. It's why to this day I still love it when it's in the upper 90's or low 100's with 95% humidity. It's summertime and I don't have to go to school!

I gotta say I wouldn't mind the occasional tropical day off of work either provided the impacts to me are minimal. I guess I want my cake and want to eat it too.

:)
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Re: CSU's Klotzbach Addresses Lack of Hurricane Activity

#40 Postby Nimbus » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:26 pm

We are up to TD5 already, its the upper level lows that have been in just the right position to prevent development. That kind of luck isn't going to hold through September.
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