2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2121 Postby chaser1 » Sat Aug 24, 2024 4:36 pm

MarioProtVI wrote:
Hammy wrote:CFS continuing to show things taking off in about a week, looks like its zeroing in on August 31 (the same system the AIRS Euro is showing) with four additional storms by September 20

After this point, it shows a lull, and then an MDR outbreak in early October along with some Caribbean activity, so it seems to be adjusting for the monsoon trough slipping back southward more slowly than expected, so we might see a delayed peak and backloaded season similar to 2001

I’m having a bit of a hard time believing only 5 storms will form in September. Could see a bit more, perhaps 6 or 7, especially since CFS might not be catching some weaker short-lived storms that can easily fly under the radar at its current res.


I second that sentiment.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2122 Postby Hammy » Sat Aug 24, 2024 4:54 pm

MarioProtVI wrote:
Hammy wrote:CFS continuing to show things taking off in about a week, looks like its zeroing in on August 31 (the same system the AIRS Euro is showing) with four additional storms by September 20

After this point, it shows a lull, and then an MDR outbreak in early October along with some Caribbean activity, so it seems to be adjusting for the monsoon trough slipping back southward more slowly than expected, so we might see a delayed peak and backloaded season similar to 2001

I’m having a bit of a hard time believing only 5 storms will form in September. Could see a bit more, perhaps 6 or 7, especially since CFS might not be catching some weaker short-lived storms that can easily fly under the radar at its current res.


Mostly observing the trends and what the model's showing--they key here is the first three weeks of September should be fairly active, and there's a high chance (given the resolution) it's missing storms, but the trend is towards an active first three quarters of the month, and a second, potentially larger peak in October
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2123 Postby Category5Kaiju » Sat Aug 24, 2024 11:53 pm

Hammy wrote:
MarioProtVI wrote:
Hammy wrote:CFS continuing to show things taking off in about a week, looks like its zeroing in on August 31 (the same system the AIRS Euro is showing) with four additional storms by September 20

After this point, it shows a lull, and then an MDR outbreak in early October along with some Caribbean activity, so it seems to be adjusting for the monsoon trough slipping back southward more slowly than expected, so we might see a delayed peak and backloaded season similar to 2001

I’m having a bit of a hard time believing only 5 storms will form in September. Could see a bit more, perhaps 6 or 7, especially since CFS might not be catching some weaker short-lived storms that can easily fly under the radar at its current res.


Mostly observing the trends and what the model's showing--they key here is the first three weeks of September should be fairly active, and there's a high chance (given the resolution) it's missing storms, but the trend is towards an active first three quarters of the month, and a second, potentially larger peak in October


Maybe the bigger question (or the one I at least have now) is why the models seem to be on and off with activity. Seems like that’s been the case, especially with the ensembles, quite recently, but at the same time, I’ve seen “wave breaking” and “ITCZ too far north” being tossed around and I’m not entirely sure what these models are seeing that’s causing them to behave this way
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2124 Postby weeniepatrol » Sun Aug 25, 2024 2:48 am

Image

Image

Just a theory, could be/mean absolutely nothing but the very warm temperatures aloft could act to flatten lapse rates and kill instability. Might be one reason why we can't seem to buy a rainshower in the MDR?

Remember, convection is a function of vertical gradience in temperature. Every degree increase of the tropopause should roughly offset one degree of warmth of the sea surface. Very cold tropopauses are how you get enough instability to fuel hurricanes like Epsilon 2005 or Alex 2016 over like 21 C waters.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2125 Postby Sciencerocks » Sun Aug 25, 2024 8:00 am

weeniepatrol wrote:https://i.imgur.com/XFQj5ii.png

https://i.imgur.com/oRzXGq2.png

Just a theory, could be/mean absolutely nothing but the very warm temperatures aloft could act to flatten lapse rates and kill instability. Might be one reason why we can't seem to buy a rainshower in the MDR?

Remember, convection is a function of vertical gradience in temperature. Every degree increase of the tropopause should roughly offset one degree of warmth of the sea surface. Very cold tropopauses are how you get enough instability to fuel hurricanes like Epsilon 2005 or Alex 2016 over like 21 C waters.


I agree. This is a reply to one of the post in the model thread I nearly made;" I am going to guess the inability to create upwards motion(aka convection). Like a cap!", Of course you said it more meteorological and much better talking about lap rate creating an Atlantic wide inversion capping the ability to create convection, which is kind of what I was also thinking. I remember seeing this in July-early August 2005 too and it happens for a time in most seasons.

"When that breaks we might get some impressive activity but maybe not what was expected 2-3 months. Mostly because the cape verdes nearly always shut down after the second week of sept so isn't likely to be another 2004 or 2017 in regard, but Caribbean, gulf and western Atlantic could very well see some impressive activity for a good month from mid sept into oct. Probably a cat5 in the carribean"
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2126 Postby Teban54 » Sun Aug 25, 2024 8:43 am

weeniepatrol wrote:https://i.imgur.com/XFQj5ii.png

https://i.imgur.com/oRzXGq2.png

Just a theory, could be/mean absolutely nothing but the very warm temperatures aloft could act to flatten lapse rates and kill instability. Might be one reason why we can't seem to buy a rainshower in the MDR?

Remember, convection is a function of vertical gradience in temperature. Every degree increase of the tropopause should roughly offset one degree of warmth of the sea surface. Very cold tropopauses are how you get enough instability to fuel hurricanes like Epsilon 2005 or Alex 2016 over like 21 C waters.

The tweet below is raising the same point as you did.

 https://x.com/catinsight/status/1827632356577964531




However, there are a few reasons to be skeptical. For one, the chart shows June and July atmospheric temperatures, during which we had Beryl. For another, a few years on the chart had peaks in the 250-sfc deltas that still transpired to an active or hyperactive season, such as 1998, 2010 and 2018. (2018 also had extremely cold MDR unlike now.)

Eric Blake's thoughts resonate these concerns as well:

 https://x.com/EricBlake12/status/1827677842223600040


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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2127 Postby SFLcane » Sun Aug 25, 2024 8:53 am

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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2128 Postby Category5Kaiju » Sun Aug 25, 2024 9:25 am

So, let's do a bit of analysis here. It seems like a lot of comparisons with 2022 are popping up, so I'm going to compare the current sst anomalies with the ones of that year.

2022:
Image

2024:
Image

Interestingly, we can note that both years (for reasons I'm not entirely sure of, however) featured well-above average water temperatures off the Eastern Canadian coast. So, one might think that that might be a major TC-inhibiting factor and the reason for the current dearth of major model activity. Possible, but unlike 2022, this year still managed to produce two hurricanes, including a Category 2, alongside that kind of sst configuration this month. Additionally, we can see that 2022 had a very cool Canary Current, which iirc was a prime culprit for the infamous "wave-breaking" pattern that completely shut down August. Also unlike 2022 is the fact that this year, we have very warm deep tropical waters that (presumably) would counter whatever negative factors the warm Canadian waters may have on tropical action.

So this brings me to my next point. What if...just what if...the strong El Nino from last year is actually still relevant to this year? A good comparison in that sense would be 2016. Both 2024 and 2016 followed years with substantial El Ninos and were entering -ENSO by the peak of hurricane season. In fact, 2016 featured a very inactive September (although it did have quite some August action, including a major hurricane that month), which transitioned to an active and destructive October (with Matthew being the headline of that season). Similarly, we already saw a major hurricane this year in the form of Beryl (albeit its strength and location completely alien based on the time of occurrence). Here's the sst map for 2016 by the same time of the year.

Image

Now here's the thing. Personally, I don't think we're going to see a 2016-like September simply because deep tropics-wise at least, we're so much warmer at this point in time, which would theoretically mean more instability and storm fuel. At the same time, I can't help but wonder if we're going to see a "delayed by not denied" peak for this season. And with that being said, although it currently MAY NOT SEEM as if we'll hit hyperactivity, let alone those unnatural 200+ ACE predictions, there's only so much we can do now that would definitively answer the question of whether or not we see a long-lived, late season storm (such as the 1932 Cuba Hurricane, Inez, Georges, or Matthew) that ends up really boosting our total ACE despite models, for obvious reasons, not even seeing that far out. Dare I say it, I think we're arguably, in a sense, flying in the dark, and our best virtues would be to discuss what's happening in real time, as well as patience.
Last edited by Category5Kaiju on Sun Aug 25, 2024 11:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2129 Postby WeatherBoy2000 » Sun Aug 25, 2024 9:54 am

Sciencerocks wrote:
weeniepatrol wrote:https://i.imgur.com/XFQj5ii.png

https://i.imgur.com/oRzXGq2.png

Just a theory, could be/mean absolutely nothing but the very warm temperatures aloft could act to flatten lapse rates and kill instability. Might be one reason why we can't seem to buy a rainshower in the MDR?

Remember, convection is a function of vertical gradience in temperature. Every degree increase of the tropopause should roughly offset one degree of warmth of the sea surface. Very cold tropopauses are how you get enough instability to fuel hurricanes like Epsilon 2005 or Alex 2016 over like 21 C waters.


I agree. This is a reply to one of the post in the model thread I nearly made;" I am going to guess the inability to create upwards motion(aka convection). Like a cap!", Of course you said it more meteorological and much better talking about lap rate creating an Atlantic wide inversion capping the ability to create convection, which is kind of what I was also thinking. I remember seeing this in July-early August 2005 too and it happens for a time in most seasons.

"When that breaks we might get some impressive activity but maybe not what was expected 2-3 months. Mostly because the cape verdes nearly always shut down after the second week of sept so isn't likely to be another 2004 or 2017 in regard, but Caribbean, gulf and western Atlantic could very well see some impressive activity for a good month from mid sept into oct. Probably a cat5 in the carribean"


CV season in recent years has often gone until the end of September at the very least. 2019 and 2021 saw majors in the last week of September. Last year and 2018 saw CV activity in October. With how warm the mdr is this year, I won't be surprised if we could see CV activity well into October again, theoretically conditions should be even more favorable than last year due to no strong el nino.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2130 Postby CyclonicFury » Sun Aug 25, 2024 10:04 am

Teban54 wrote:
weeniepatrol wrote:https://i.imgur.com/XFQj5ii.png

https://i.imgur.com/oRzXGq2.png

Just a theory, could be/mean absolutely nothing but the very warm temperatures aloft could act to flatten lapse rates and kill instability. Might be one reason why we can't seem to buy a rainshower in the MDR?

Remember, convection is a function of vertical gradience in temperature. Every degree increase of the tropopause should roughly offset one degree of warmth of the sea surface. Very cold tropopauses are how you get enough instability to fuel hurricanes like Epsilon 2005 or Alex 2016 over like 21 C waters.

The tweet below is raising the same point as you did.

 https://x.com/catinsight/status/1827632356577964531




However, there are a few reasons to be skeptical. For one, the chart shows June and July atmospheric temperatures, during which we had Beryl. For another, a few years on the chart had peaks in the 250-sfc deltas that still transpired to an active or hyperactive season, such as 1998, 2010 and 2018. (2018 also had extremely cold MDR unlike now.)

Eric Blake's thoughts resonate these concerns as well:

 https://x.com/EricBlake12/status/1827677842223600040



I have long been a skeptic of the common theory that the MDR has become more stable in recent years, but this graph does seem to show that, at least for the months of June and July. MDR SSTs at the surface have been warmer than ever, but it does seem as if 200mb temperatures in the MDR have significantly warmed over the last 2 decades or so.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2131 Postby WeatherBoy2000 » Sun Aug 25, 2024 10:26 am

 https://x.com/AndyHazelton/status/1827683589799960803




I wonder if we're in for a somewhat "delayed but not denied" case regarding activity this year, the peak may come around later but will compensate by going on longer.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2132 Postby tolakram » Sun Aug 25, 2024 10:48 am

Maybe meaningless, maybe.

Storms occurring on/near Labor Day and their max lifetime designation - D, TS, H (season totals s/h/m) - no science here, just for fun

2013 - 0 (14/2/0)
2014 - 1 TS (8/6/2)
2015 - 1 H (11/4/2)
2016 - 2 H, 1 D (15/7/4)
2017 - 2 H (17/10/6)
2018 - 1 H (15/8/2)
2019 - 1 H (18/6/3)
2020 - 1 TS, 2 H (30/14/7) activity both sides of Sept 7th
2021 - 2 H, 1 TS (21/7/4)
2022 - 2 H (14/8/2)
2023 - 1 H, 3 TS (20/7/3)

Yea, I started with 2013. :lol:

Wikipedia for numbers, count might be off if I screwed up. Labor day varies but I feel like is a decent metric for near peak season. 2020 sticks out because Lara and Nana were gone and Paulette just formed.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2133 Postby WiscoWx02 » Sun Aug 25, 2024 11:11 am



Given that the Euro busted the forecast for this week over A week ago, I think we can reasonably assume we can’t take it seriously the next few weeks. With that said, it has become even more clear to me that odds of a true wake up happening are even lower and quite low at this point. We can’t say a 2013 repeat at this point given we have already had a stray cat 5 hurricane, but a 2022 repeat is definitely on the table if not likely at this point. Maybe even lower activity than 2022. SSTA’s don’t matter clearly, low shear doesn’t matter and a favorable background state doesn’t matter when that one unforeseen element is there akin to 2013 and 2022, which were expected to be busy but were stunted due to an unforeseen factor…by end of November I figure it will be a memorable season, not because of the high activity, but because of the lack of it provided Beryl in June and July and apparent favorable set up that never was taken advantage of.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2134 Postby Teban54 » Sun Aug 25, 2024 11:35 am

I'll preface this by saying that a lot of Ryan Maue's tweets in the past year are rather controversial, and I find them pushing too much of an agenda to be taken at good faith.

That said... He seems to think the only reason for waves to struggle right now is that they're too far north, and pushed into cold waters that are insufficient for sustained convection. Interestingly, he said in a follow-up tweet that 2023's waters just offshore Africa were warmer.

If that's the only cause - and that's a big if - one would expect this to change later as the ITCZ drops further south.

 https://x.com/RyanMaue/status/1827734751442014297


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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2135 Postby LarryWx » Sun Aug 25, 2024 12:45 pm

Is it possible that the fact that the equatorial Atlantic has cooled at record pace from a Nino to Niña is the main reason for the current MDR quiet?

“After over a year of record-high global sea temperatures, the equatorial Atlantic is cooling off more quickly than ever recorded, which could impact weather around the world. Over the past three months, the shift from hot to cool temperatures in the equatorial Atlantic Ocean has happened at record speed.

Then further down is a graph. Focus on the far right, where 2024 equat. Atlantic is shown with a rapid cooling of anomalies from ~+1.15C in Mar to ~-0.5C in July or an anom. cooling of ~1.65C in just 4 months, the fastest cooling since at least 1982.

Article with graph: https://archive.ph/2024.08.20-103704/ht ... knows-why/

Could this in combination with the current record warm subtropical E Atlantic (see link below) be the main reason for the E MDR being so stable? Keep in mind that the main reason hurricanes exist is to transport “excess warmth” from the tropics northward. With the equator cooling so rapidly while the middle latitudes of the N Atlantic are at record warmth, is there currently the normal level of “excess warmth” in the tropics? Assuming not, does the normal forcing that leads to ATL hurricanes in the MDR E of the Car currently exist?

Link showing extreme warm anomalies 30N to 40+N (E of 60W)
https://kouya.has.arizona.edu/tropics/l ... mo-max.png
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2136 Postby Teban54 » Sun Aug 25, 2024 12:49 pm

LarryWx wrote:Is it possible that the fact that the equatorial Atlantic has cooled at record pace from a Nino to Niña is the main reason for the current MDR quiet?

“After over a year of record-high global sea temperatures, the equatorial Atlantic is cooling off more quickly than ever recorded, which could impact weather around the world. Over the past three months, the shift from hot to cool temperatures in the equatorial Atlantic Ocean has happened at record speed.

Then further down is a graph. Focus on the far right, where 2024 equat. Atlantic is shown with a rapid cooling of anomalies from ~+1.15C in Mar to ~-0.5C in July or an anom. cooling of ~1.65C in just 4 months, the fastest cooling since at least 1982.

Article with graph: https://archive.ph/2024.08.20-103704/ht ... knows-why/

Could this in combination with the current record warm subtropical E Atlantic (see link below) be the main reason for the E MDR being so stable? Keep in mind that the main reason hurricanes exist is to transport “excess warmth” from the tropics northward. With the equator cooling so rapidly while the middle latitudes of the N Atlantic are at record warmth, is there currently the normal level of “excess warmth” in the tropics? Assuming not, does the normal forcing that leads to ATL hurricanes in the MDR E of the Car currently exist?

Link showing extreme warm anomalies 30N to 40+N (E of 60W)?
https://kouya.has.arizona.edu/tropics/l ... mo-max.png

While I think its a really interesting point, what immediately raised my skepticism is the bolded part, for a single reason: People said the exact same thing in 2023.

Last year's entire Atlantic was also anomalously warm, not just the tropics. I distinctly remember one tweet in August (quite possibly late August just before Franklin and Idalia became majors). It was essentially saying... "Hurricanes exist to transfer energy from the tropics into the subtropics, but with the Atlantic so warm, do they have a reason to exist?"

Obviously, that didn't age well as 2023 was above-average by every metric.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2137 Postby cycloneye » Sun Aug 25, 2024 1:25 pm

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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2138 Postby cycloneye » Sun Aug 25, 2024 1:40 pm

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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2140 Postby Hammy » Sun Aug 25, 2024 1:57 pm

Given even the experts are questioning what's going on--meaning this is not simply the models failing to pick up on things--2000 may be the closest analog (albeit for completely different reasons) where we go through the peak relatively quiet only to have the real switch flip after--between August 24 and September 10, only one, very short-lived storm formed--and then from September 11-30 we had 6/5/2 and a moderately active October (though this year seems like it might be moreso--an abnormally far north monsoon trough in October combined with below normal shear that's forecast would be quite a favorable pattern)
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