2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#881 Postby CyclonicFury » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:56 pm

Hammy wrote:
TheStormExpert wrote::uarrow: Actually I was saying that I do see some signs of a potential similar in ways repeat of 2013 if conditions don't improve very soon.

Right now you have a good bit of SAL which should already be on the decrease according to climatology and I believe there is yet another strong outbreak on it's way for Monday. Now I am aware that this season is featuring the least amount of SAL in any season since 2005 I believe but what about 2008 which was able to produce a Cape Verde major hurricane in July?

Wind Shear is currently 50/50 with your areas of high and low shear but we all know that can go back up or down in a blink of an eye.

Mid-level dry air is also present to the north and south (especially) of the ITCZ over Africa and the tropical Atlantic which if you get a large enough system it will get ingested into it. This was a HUGE factor into why 2013 failed to achieve it's forecasted potential.

All in all this season could go anywhere from 1)A well below average season like 2014 in terms of numbers to B)A season like 2013 which produced about normal numbers but featured crappy quality storms. Then there is C)A season like last which struggled some until after the peak to produce really anything of significance and then bam we had Matthew, Nicole, and Otto which were 3 of our 4 majors in a row but at the end it had above average numbers. Then we have D)2010, 2011, or 2012 which were all low-end hyperactive seasons each featuring 19 named storms with 2010 being the best in terms of quality and 2012 being the worst (excluding Sandy).

Right now I'm starting to think an option like B is possible which is a season a lot like 2013 which features about average numbers but weak and short-lived storms.


All of the above conditions are normal--the African dust doesn't really start declining until about the second week of August--and concerning 2008 Bertha actually struggled quite a bit until it exited the MDR (and that's a bad year to use as an example as well given we've had maybe 5-6 majors in July). Shear has been mostly below normal, with only a few spikes here and there. Dry air is also about where it should be at this point.

I need to stress again that 2013 had global problems with the ocean circulation, that affected global activity during most of summer--and we were already seeing signs of this (major cold weather outbreaks in the east, significant above normal rainfall, and what effectively amounts to a drought in the tropical Atlantic, as well as a linear shear pattern.)

I would say the chances of a 2013 repeat are maybe around 5% if not lower--it had unique conditions (similar to 2005) which can't really be used as a valid comparison to any other year.

And I'll point out more often than not, active seasons have late starts:

1998: there were literally no storms, not even a single depression, until July 27, and then nothing again until August 18. One storm totaling six days of activity in the first 80 days of the season. Final numbers 14/10/3 and 182 ACE.
1999: One storm in June (Arlene), lasting six days; and then nothing for the next two months--July and the first three weeks of activity were filled with nothing but SAL outbreaks. Final numbers 12/8/5 and 177 ACE.
2000: no storms at all (and only two June depressions) until August 4, and again major SAL outbreaks in July. Final numbers 15/8/4 and 116 ACE.
2001: Allison in June, then no storms again until August 2, and only three total storms in August--there were no hurricanes until Sep 10. Final numbers 15/9/4 and 106 ACE.
2004: nothing (not even a depression) until July 31, and only a few weak mid-latitude invests. Final numbers 15/8/6 and 225 ACE (though 2004 is as much an anomaly as 2005.)
2007: three very short-lived storms, widely spread apart--one in May, June, and the end of July, and no hurricanes until the third week of August. Final numbers 15/6/2 (including two Cat 5's) though with 72 ACE (low end of average)
2010: Despite having Alex in June (thanks to significantly lower base pressure than normal) there were only two more short-lived storms prior to August 20. Final numbers 19/12/5 and 165 ACE.
2011: Quantity over quality start to the season, four storms formed before Aug 1 and no hurricanes prior to the fourth week of August. Final numbers 19/7/4 and 163 ACE.
2012: Early start in May/June with mid-latitude activity, followed by absolutely nothing until the start of August. Final numbers 19/10/2 and 133 ACE.
2016: Exluding Alex (as it was in January, well before the season) there were three short-lived storms between late May and mid-June, and like 2012 absolutely nothing until the beginning of August. Final numbers 15/7/4 and 141 ACE.

Going back to 1995, only five seasons-1995, 1996, 2003, 2005, and 2008 had significant early-season activity, meaning 67% of seasons saw little to no early season or July activity.

I agree. 2013 was a very weird year for weather, outside of just the Atlantic tropics. The Atlantic thermohaline circulation weakened substantially between winter and spring. If anything, the opposite occurred this year, with the AMO becoming more positive during the spring. The subtropics are also much cooler than in 2013 and the deep tropics are warmer. 2013 was not the normal, it was the exception. No two seasons are the same. As I said earlier 2013 was only the second Atlantic season of the satellite era to lack a hurricane category 2 or stronger, and the only Atlantic hurricane season of the satellite era to lack a major hurricane that was not an El Nino year.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#882 Postby Andrew92 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:00 pm

I repeat from earlier: It is only July, and it is two years after the last traditional El Nino. Hurricane seasons two years after the most recent traditional El Nino, or one year after the last Modoki, have always been bad news since the 1950s.

It is way too early to compare this year to 2013. Several of the hurricane seasons I listed in my prior post that fell in this sweet spot were quite dead around this time, not waking up until the last two weeks of August. If models are correct about a lack of Atlantic activity over the next few weeks, it could happen again.

Of course it would be great if the season pulls a 2013 and is nearly dead. But the historical odds are severely against it.

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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#883 Postby cycloneye » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:44 pm

@TropicalTidbits
The GEFS can't seem to decide how equatorial forcing will evolve in the 5-10 day period. Last 8 runs from 06Z/18Z cycles go back and forth:


 https://twitter.com/TropicalTidbits/status/888927424599216129


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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#884 Postby Hammy » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:45 pm

:uarrow: I normally make low-dollar bets on the storm numbers, and my confidence is too low as to what way the season will go. This isn't helping. :lol:

Oddly the time of day seems to determine which pattern is favored.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#885 Postby NDG » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:02 am

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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#886 Postby weathaguyry » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:37 am

Some people don't know that 2013 was as much of an anomaly as 2005, and should not be used as an analog. Like 2005, 2013 is mentioned every season as an analog, but there were clear signs that the AMO crashed and the season was going to be a bust. When you have a warm MDR, with strong waves and normal shear and instability, it is unreasonable to think that this season would underperform, in my opinion above average seems like a good bet, but at least average is very very likely at this point.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#887 Postby Steve » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:48 am

weathaguyry wrote:Some people don't know that 2013 was as much of an anomaly as 2005, and should not be used as an analog. Like 2005, 2013 is mentioned every season as an analog, but there were clear signs that the AMO crashed and the season was going to be a bust. When you have a warm MDR, with strong waves and normal shear and instability, it is unreasonable to think that this season would underperform, in my opinion above average seems like a good bet, but at least average is very very likely at this point.


I agree. I think the comparisons are from impatient people just looking for another reason why July isn't active (I need storms, and I need them now damnit!). In March and early April, there were similar water temperature profiles. Then those diverged and the comparison should have gone down the drain.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#888 Postby Ntxw » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:01 am

To say through July is without much activity is not entirely the whole story. ACE is now nearing 7 units average while the total is about half (about 50%) normal to date. Through July does average about 1 hurricane day. These are still relatively low numbers though and one hurricane can quickly change that. August the ACE average picks up modestly so activity then will be needed.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#889 Postby TheStormExpert » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:57 pm

Yes historically high shear levels are favored throughout the Caribbean and into the Tropical Atlantic this time of year but the question now is will it lessen as time progresses?

 https://twitter.com/MichaelRLowry/status/889554618702852096


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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#890 Postby WeatherEmperor » Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:13 pm

Image

Image

@thestormexpert,

The image you posted shows the average shear levels for the months of june through november.

Vertical windshear is near or slightly below normal in the tropical atlantic and caribbean. Which maps are you looking at that shows these historically high shear levels?


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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#891 Postby tolakram » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:06 pm

TheStormExpert wrote:Yes historically high shear levels are favored throughout the Caribbean and into the Tropical Atlantic this time of year but the question now is will it lessen as time progresses?



Are you seeing anything that might indicate shear will be above normal? So far it's been normal to below normal in all zones so I'm not sure what the issue is.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#892 Postby WeatherEmperor » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:08 pm

@tarheelprogrammer:

Remember this? -----> viewtopic.php?f=31&t=117740&hilit=2016+indicators&start=320

Around this time last year (late July / early August), similar types of posts in terms of Atlantic inactivity were happening. Just scroll a few pages left and right and you will see. In short, you predicted 10/3/1 for the 2016 and posted frequently about how bad conditions were and that they might remain that way the rest of the season.

This is how the 2016 ended up:

http://weather.unisys.com/hurricane/atl ... /index.php

Sometimes it just pays to wait.....
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#893 Postby tarheelprogrammer » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:27 pm

WeatherEmperor wrote:@tarheelprogrammer:

Remember this? -----> viewtopic.php?f=31&t=117740&hilit=2016+indicators&start=320

Around this time last year (late July / early August), similar types of posts in terms of Atlantic inactivity were happening. Just scroll a few pages left and right and you will see. In short, you predicted 10/3/1 for the 2016 and posted frequently about how bad conditions were and that they might remain that way the rest of the season.

This is how the 2016 ended up:

http://weather.unisys.com/hurricane/atl ... /index.php

Sometimes it just pays to wait.....


I was wrong true, like everyone else on this planet has been at some point. :lol: Unlike last season however, we are not heading toward a La Nina. That helped the end part of last season, and Matthew benefited from that. Of course Matthew generated a lot of the ACE for last season.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#894 Postby tarheelprogrammer » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:32 pm

Getting away from season cancel posts lol. African waves looking nice right now on IR.

Image
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#895 Postby Hammy » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:57 pm

Ntxw wrote:To say through July is without much activity is not entirely the whole story. ACE is now nearing 7 units average while the total is about half (about 50%) normal to date. Through July does average about 1 hurricane day. These are still relatively low numbers though and one hurricane can quickly change that. August the ACE average picks up modestly so activity then will be needed.


There is one thing I have to wonder with those numbers. We've had below average ACE so far, but we've had two storms form already where they wouldn't necessarily form under normal circumstances (thus contributing to the shorter lifespan)--if the Gulf and Caribbean end up less favorable than normal for formation, could the numbers and ACE simply mean that the activity will heavily favor the MDR/Atlantic itself, rather than any indicator of a generally below normal season?
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#896 Postby Ntxw » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:04 pm

Hammy wrote:
Ntxw wrote:To say through July is without much activity is not entirely the whole story. ACE is now nearing 7 units average while the total is about half (about 50%) normal to date. Through July does average about 1 hurricane day. These are still relatively low numbers though and one hurricane can quickly change that. August the ACE average picks up modestly so activity then will be needed.


There is one thing I have to wonder with those numbers. We've had below average ACE so far, but we've had two storms form already where they wouldn't necessarily form under normal circumstances (thus contributing to the shorter lifespan)--if the Gulf and Caribbean end up less favorable than normal for formation, could the numbers and ACE simply mean that the activity will heavily favor the MDR/Atlantic itself, rather than any indicator of a generally below normal season?


I think the best thing to take from it, structurally these systems are not having trouble getting organized and quickly consolidate. Some years they take forever, and are more often not found as open waves. So when or if the conditions drastically improve, less mid level dry air and little to no shear perhaps they will take advantage. I'm not sure June and July correlates one way or the other with Sept-Oct but its intriguing they have formed so far south. Atlantic ACE is a funny business, one or two storms could flip it around very quick, but eventually you do need them otherwise the ACE to named ratio will end up poor if you go 3-5 storms and they don't at least attempt at hurricanes.
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#897 Postby NDG » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:22 pm

With the NAO going negative over the next couple of weeks expect the MDR waters to stay above average if not get even warmer. IMO.

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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#898 Postby Hammy » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:21 am

NDG wrote:With the NAO going negative over the next couple of weeks expect the MDR waters to stay above average if not get even warmer. IMO.


I feel silly asking as long as I've been following weather but what are the general effects of the NAO on Atlantic activity?
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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#899 Postby TheStormExpert » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:52 am

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Re: 2017 indicators: SST's / MSLP / SAL / Steering / Instability

#900 Postby hcane27 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:07 am

Hammy wrote:
NDG wrote:With the NAO going negative over the next couple of weeks expect the MDR waters to stay above average if not get even warmer. IMO.


I feel silly asking as long as I've been following weather but what are the general effects of the NAO on Atlantic activity?


The average storm numbers for the Atlantic Basin for NAO ... since 1950 .... with the monthly NAO

NEG NAO POS NAO

August 3.1 2.9

September 3.8 3.8

October 1.7 2.0


The average storm numbers for the Atlantic Basin for NAO ... since 1966 .... with the monthly NAO

NEG NAO POS NAO

August 3.3 3.0

September 3.9 3.7

October 1.8 2.0
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