2019 TCRs

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DioBrando
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#21 Postby DioBrando » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:48 pm

aspen wrote:
DioBrando wrote:I wonder if, in the TCRs:
[*]Barry gets downgraded to a TS
[*]Humberto gets upped to a C4, or has an extended extratropical period
[*]Lorenzo gets downgraded to a C4 (hopefully not)
[*]Rebekah gets upped to a C1


I doubt Humberto will be upgraded to a Cat 4, but Lorenzo’s first peak may be upped to 130 kt. There’s also a chance Dorian could be re-analyzed as a 165 kt system, based on its ridiculously high SFMR winds (170-175 kt).

fair enough!
why don't you think humberto would be upgraded despite people claiming there were cat 4 winds/sub-950mb pressures based on dropsondes that the hurricane forecasters might have missed?
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#22 Postby aspen » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:05 pm

DioBrando wrote:
aspen wrote:
DioBrando wrote:I wonder if, in the TCRs:
[*]Barry gets downgraded to a TS
[*]Humberto gets upped to a C4, or has an extended extratropical period
[*]Lorenzo gets downgraded to a C4 (hopefully not)
[*]Rebekah gets upped to a C1


I doubt Humberto will be upgraded to a Cat 4, but Lorenzo’s first peak may be upped to 130 kt. There’s also a chance Dorian could be re-analyzed as a 165 kt system, based on its ridiculously high SFMR winds (170-175 kt).

fair enough!
why don't you think humberto would be upgraded despite people claiming there were cat 4 winds/sub-950mb pressures based on dropsondes that the hurricane forecasters might have missed?


Despite plenty of 115+ kt winds at flight level, Humberto had such a large and broad circulation that those winds could not be well translated to surface level, if I remember correctly. The opposite was true with Dorian; its surface-level winds may have been higher than its flight-level winds, depending on how correct the SFMR estimates were (FL winds were around 155-160 kt). Usually, SL winds aren’t as high as they are at FL.
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#23 Postby DioBrando » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:43 pm

aspen wrote:
DioBrando wrote:
aspen wrote:
I doubt Humberto will be upgraded to a Cat 4, but Lorenzo’s first peak may be upped to 130 kt. There’s also a chance Dorian could be re-analyzed as a 165 kt system, based on its ridiculously high SFMR winds (170-175 kt).

fair enough!
why don't you think humberto would be upgraded despite people claiming there were cat 4 winds/sub-950mb pressures based on dropsondes that the hurricane forecasters might have missed?


Despite plenty of 115+ kt winds at flight level, Humberto had such a large and broad circulation that those winds could not be well translated to surface level, if I remember correctly. The opposite was true with Dorian; its surface-level winds may have been higher than its flight-level winds, depending on how correct the SFMR estimates were (FL winds were around 155-160 kt). Usually, SL winds aren’t as high as they are at FL.

aighty was just wondering
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#24 Postby EquusStorm » Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:51 pm

I'm kinda wondering about if Lorenzo's peak will stay in analysis as well. There are pretty strong points on both sides of that argument but I really hope evidence is strong enough to let it stay.

I think Pablo and Rebekah and maybe a couple others get their origin backed up at least 6-12 hours. I guess it makes sense to hold off operationally when they can just back the origin up in post analysis just to make sure the system is classifiable.

Have a feeling Barry miiight stay since similarly borderline systems like Cindy 05 got upgraded to a hurricane. I am super curious to see what they say about Olga. I've been saying I don't know if it should have been classified, but reading threads about observations near the center, I honestly wonder if they might extend the track further north. Those observations certainly make it seem it might have somehow maintained a slight borderline tropical core further than expected despite being wrapped up along the front. It's a very interesting case and CERTAINLY didn't just fall apart as soon as it interacted with the front like I thought. I know recon wasn't confident it stayed a closed center, but I'd like to see some surface reports to see if maybe it did.
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#25 Postby Sciencerocks » Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:48 pm

Olga will likely be pushed back about 12-18 hours and there's solid support that it maintained a warm core way further north then the nhc believed when they downgraded.
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#26 Postby aspen » Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:58 pm

I think there’s a decent possibility of Dorian’s peak being slightly increased, either with winds getting upped by 5-10 kt or the pressure being dropped a few mbar. It maintained 170+ kt SFMR measurements around its peak intensity and one pass recorded an extrapolated pressure of 907 mbar. I don’t think Dorian did get up to 170 kt, but 165 kt is more believable. However, there’s a chance it could also be downgraded to 155 kt like Irma. How did Dorian’s SFMR readings compare to Irma’s, and what justified its downgrade?
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#27 Postby EquusStorm » Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:30 pm

I was really shocked when Irma was downgraded a little; I get that SFMR is not super reliable in cat5s now, but still thought it was probably not far from accurate. With Dorian's pressure being even lower hopefully the winds are either maintained or raised. Makes me wonder a lot about the Labor Day hurricane.

Lot more confident that Olga was a tropical storm despite its strange evolution reading threads... surface obs might tell the story here. I think it deserved far more than two advisories.
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#28 Postby Hammy » Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:31 am

EquusStorm wrote:I was really shocked when Irma was downgraded a little; I get that SFMR is not super reliable in cat5s now, but still thought it was probably not far from accurate. With Dorian's pressure being even lower hopefully the winds are either maintained or raised. Makes me wonder a lot about the Labor Day hurricane.

Lot more confident that Olga was a tropical storm despite its strange evolution reading threads... surface obs might tell the story here. I think it deserved far more than two advisories.


Though it isn't commonly done, I think Olga would be a good instance to have the latter part of the track as subtropical.
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#29 Postby Chris90 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:32 pm

aspen wrote:I think there’s a decent possibility of Dorian’s peak being slightly increased, either with winds getting upped by 5-10 kt or the pressure being dropped a few mbar. It maintained 170+ kt SFMR measurements around its peak intensity and one pass recorded an extrapolated pressure of 907 mbar. I don’t think Dorian did get up to 170 kt, but 165 kt is more believable. However, there’s a chance it could also be downgraded to 155 kt like Irma. How did Dorian’s SFMR readings compare to Irma’s, and what justified its downgrade?


I think Dorian did get to 170kt. I understand that the NHC believes the SFMR might be running too hot, but when you compare the SFMR readings to the eyewall profiles shown by dropsonde, it makes sense to me that the SFMR winds would be higher than flight level. Dropsondes consistently showed the eyewall had stronger winds between 850mb down to the surface as compared to 850mb up to the 700mb flight level. There was also a wealth of SFMR readings supporting 170kt, it wasn't just a one-off reading.

Flagged readings: 172kt, 168kt, 176kt, 169kt, 172kt, 171kt, 172kt, 170kt, 176kt

Unflagged readings: 170kt, 176kt, 172kt, 168kt, 170kt, 177kt, 168kt, 166kt, 166kt, 167kt, 167kt, 166kt

That's 9 flagged readings and 12 unflagged readings for a total of 21 SFMR readings that support a 170kt intensity (in my opinion). Highest 10 second flight level wind was 161kts.

In comparison to Irma, her highest 10 second flight level wind was 171kts, and she had 2 SFMR readings at 160kt.

Despite Dorian not having the flight level winds to support a 170 kt intensity, I still think huge variations exist in eyewalls and a 10% reduction standard from 700mb just doesn't work for every storm. In my opinion, dropsondes in eyewalls have demonstrated the huge variety in eyewall structures and behaviors.
For example, the eyewall dropsonde that measured a 176kt gust at the surface:
Between 904mb to 939mb at the surface, every single reading was 170kts or greater. So, the lowest 35mb of the eyewall was entirely producing winds equal to or in excess of 170kts, with a peak wind of 195kts at 912mb, 27mb above the surface.
Now, between 751mb to 870mb, the highest wind reported was 161kts, with winds dipping as low at 124kts.
Now, dropsondes aren't completely reliable because they're essentially data tubes falling through the atmosphere and sometimes they get blown out of the eyewall and land in different regions, but Dorian pretty consistently showed the strongest wind energy being generated in the lower levels as measured by dropsonde.

I personally think Dorian beat Allen's sustained wind record, but I'm not expecting the NHC to up him that high.
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#30 Postby CrazyC83 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:08 pm

Hammy wrote:
EquusStorm wrote:I was really shocked when Irma was downgraded a little; I get that SFMR is not super reliable in cat5s now, but still thought it was probably not far from accurate. With Dorian's pressure being even lower hopefully the winds are either maintained or raised. Makes me wonder a lot about the Labor Day hurricane.

Lot more confident that Olga was a tropical storm despite its strange evolution reading threads... surface obs might tell the story here. I think it deserved far more than two advisories.


Though it isn't commonly done, I think Olga would be a good instance to have the latter part of the track as subtropical.


They will probably move up the genesis time some with Olga too.

As for Dorian, the wide variation in data does add significant uncertainty. I believe the lowest pressure from Recon was 910, but that was over two consecutive missions several hours apart (with land in between). The storm chasers measured 911 mb, which was in the eye but I don't think was dead center. My estimate for Dorian's minimum pressure is 908 mb, which was while it was over Great Abaco. For the intensity:

1) There were no reliable wind observations on land. However, the pressure data provided a good estimate (as below).

2) The highest flight level winds were 159 kt. That would equate to an intensity of 143 kt at the surface using the standard 90% factor. However, all other data suggests it was clearly stronger due to its strongly convective core.

3) SFMR readings were outrageous - as high as 177 kt. There were more than a dozen other readings in the range of 165 to 175 kt. However, there is a clear belief that such readings are too high in intense storms, plus they were in shallow water near the islands. Hence, I'd consider those readings overdone, but they do provide an indication that it was a very intense storm.

4) Using pressure-wind relationships, the KZC for a pressure of 908 mb would suggest winds around 155 kt, although that is a rough guess since I don't have the calculator on hand. That is a crude estimate but provides a good base to work with.

5) Satellite estimates significantly under-estimated the intensity of Dorian. They didn't even suggest a category 5 storm.

Given all the data, I'd retain the operational peak intensity of 160 kt. That is heavily based on 100% of the flight-level winds (which seems to be a common estimate in rapidly deepening, convective hurricanes) and leaning towards the KZC pressure relationship with only slight weighting towards the SFMR. However, arguments can clearly be made in both ways, by as much as 15 kt. I'd actually lean closer to 155 than 165, but any changes would be too inconclusive.
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#31 Postby 1900hurricane » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:48 pm

Here are the KZC numbers using a 908 mb pressure. The are indeed ~155 kt.

>>> l = 26.5
>>> c = 5
>>> roci = 100
>>> oci = 1011
>>> r34 = 98
>>> p = 908
>>> KZCVroci(p, c, roci, l, oci)
154.3999999999955
>>> KZCV(p, c, r34, l, oci)
153.59999999999553
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#32 Postby DioBrando » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:14 am

Guys barry came out






Stayed as a cane
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#33 Postby 1900hurricane » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:32 am

Notable excerpt:

The peak intensity of Barry of 65 kt at 1200 UTC 13 July is based on a combination of a
surface observation, aircraft reports, and Doppler radar data. Around 1200 UTC 13 July, a
National Ocean Service (NOS) observation site at Eugene Island, Louisiana, reported sustained
winds of 62 kt and a gust of 74 kt. Around the same time and location, the Air Force Reserve
Hurricane Hunters reported unflagged SFMR winds between 60–63 kt and a peak 850-mb flight-
level wind of 73 kt, which corresponds to a surface wind of about 60 kt. In addition, Doppler
velocities from the Lake Charles radar suggested that surface winds were in the 60–65 kt range
around the same time. Based on these data, there is high confidence that Barry had peak winds
around 65 kt from 1200 UTC 13 July through landfall a few hours later.
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#34 Postby CrazyC83 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:40 pm

1900hurricane wrote:Notable excerpt:

The peak intensity of Barry of 65 kt at 1200 UTC 13 July is based on a combination of a
surface observation, aircraft reports, and Doppler radar data. Around 1200 UTC 13 July, a
National Ocean Service (NOS) observation site at Eugene Island, Louisiana, reported sustained
winds of 62 kt and a gust of 74 kt. Around the same time and location, the Air Force Reserve
Hurricane Hunters reported unflagged SFMR winds between 60–63 kt and a peak 850-mb flight-
level wind of 73 kt, which corresponds to a surface wind of about 60 kt. In addition, Doppler
velocities from the Lake Charles radar suggested that surface winds were in the 60–65 kt range
around the same time. Based on these data, there is high confidence that Barry had peak winds
around 65 kt from 1200 UTC 13 July through landfall a few hours later.


The NOS station and the radar data provide good confidence. Even if Barry looked like crap, you can't beat a surface observation.
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#35 Postby MarioProtVI » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:56 pm

CrazyC83 wrote:
1900hurricane wrote:Notable excerpt:

The peak intensity of Barry of 65 kt at 1200 UTC 13 July is based on a combination of a
surface observation, aircraft reports, and Doppler radar data. Around 1200 UTC 13 July, a
National Ocean Service (NOS) observation site at Eugene Island, Louisiana, reported sustained
winds of 62 kt and a gust of 74 kt. Around the same time and location, the Air Force Reserve
Hurricane Hunters reported unflagged SFMR winds between 60–63 kt and a peak 850-mb flight-
level wind of 73 kt, which corresponds to a surface wind of about 60 kt. In addition, Doppler
velocities from the Lake Charles radar suggested that surface winds were in the 60–65 kt range
around the same time. Based on these data, there is high confidence that Barry had peak winds
around 65 kt from 1200 UTC 13 July through landfall a few hours later.


The NOS station and the radar data provide good confidence. Even if Barry looked like crap, you can't beat a surface observation.


Goes to show recon trumps satellite and every hurricane doesn’t have to look like one - Barry proves that along with several others, like Bertha and Cristobal 2014 and Earl 1998. If we didn’t have recon or those storms were all out to sea they would not even exceed 50 kt.
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#36 Postby Ptarmigan » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:16 pm

CrazyC83 wrote:
1900hurricane wrote:Notable excerpt:

The peak intensity of Barry of 65 kt at 1200 UTC 13 July is based on a combination of a
surface observation, aircraft reports, and Doppler radar data. Around 1200 UTC 13 July, a
National Ocean Service (NOS) observation site at Eugene Island, Louisiana, reported sustained
winds of 62 kt and a gust of 74 kt. Around the same time and location, the Air Force Reserve
Hurricane Hunters reported unflagged SFMR winds between 60–63 kt and a peak 850-mb flight-
level wind of 73 kt, which corresponds to a surface wind of about 60 kt. In addition, Doppler
velocities from the Lake Charles radar suggested that surface winds were in the 60–65 kt range
around the same time. Based on these data, there is high confidence that Barry had peak winds
around 65 kt from 1200 UTC 13 July through landfall a few hours later.


The NOS station and the radar data provide good confidence. Even if Barry looked like crap, you can't beat a surface observation.


So very true.
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#37 Postby galaxy401 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:43 am

Erin was released.
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#38 Postby cycloneye » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:44 pm

galaxy401 wrote:Erin was released.


Is up on list at first post
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#39 Postby galaxy401 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:11 pm

A batch of reports came out for the East Pacific. Akoni, Mario, and Narda are released.
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Re: 2019 TCRs

#40 Postby DioBrando » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:44 pm

So I'm guessing they're gonna get all the little ones out then leave the big bois (the DHL gang) until the end?
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