2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2681 Postby Teban54 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:37 pm

cycloneye wrote:Ok, stop the presses. Phil is here.

https://twitter.com/philklotzbach/status/1557507259831160832

It surely feels very strange that current MDR SSTs are only running behind 2010, 2005, 2020, 2017 and 2016, yet a lot of recent discussions here would lead you to believe the season has lackluster MDR and guaranteed stability issues among others. :lol:

Notice that Phil is using raw SSTs and not SST anomalies, so this could be affected by global warming. Additionally, 2009, 2008, 1998 and 2011 closely follow behind 2022 in SSTs to date (0.05°C difference).
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2682 Postby AnnularCane » Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:41 pm

weeniepatrol wrote:2013! Wavebreaking! Cool Canary Current! :lol:




And cooler subtropics is bad now! :lol:
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2683 Postby tolakram » Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:44 pm

Teban54 wrote:
cycloneye wrote:Ok, stop the presses. Phil is here.

https://twitter.com/philklotzbach/status/1557507259831160832

It surely feels very strange that current MDR SSTs are only running behind 2010, 2005, 2020, 2017 and 2016, yet a lot of recent discussions here would lead you to believe the season has lackluster MDR and guaranteed stability issues among others. :lol:

Notice that Phil is using raw SSTs and not SST anomalies, so this could be affected by global warming. Additionally, 2009, 2008, 1998 and 2011 closely follow behind 2022 in SSTs to date (0.05°C difference).


He shows an anomaly chart, what do you mean by raw SST's?

edit: that's interesting, I see what you mean. I suspect overall background state is inconsequential unless the warming is uneven. Warm ocean temps are warm ocean temps, regardless of the 'normal' scale used.
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2684 Postby LarryWx » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:22 pm

skyline385 wrote:
LarryWx wrote:I just noticed that the sky here in Savannah, GA, is milky and the sun looks filtered. It has the look of smoke or haze. But something about it looks different. Is this possibly from SAL? Anyone know if SAL is currently extending all of the way to the GA and SC coast? If so, this is fascinating as I don't think it gets here all the way here at this intensity more than rarely.

SAL is all over the FL peninsula so maybe that’s what you are seeing in the sky when looking towards the ocean. But it doesn’t look like it’s made it to GA or SC yet.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220810/8324fb953ccf7ed853085bd4042ebb02.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I just saw this, which was released from the Charleston, SC, WSO about 40 minutes ago, which confirms the pretty rare SAL event for here:


AREA FORECAST DISCUSSION
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE CHARLESTON SC
739 PM EDT WED AUG 10 2022

FINALLY, A GOOD AMOUNT OF THE SAHARAN DUST HAS SPREAD OFF THE
ATLANTIC INTO COASTAL SC AND GA, RESULTING IN A FAIR AMOUNT OF
HAZE THIS AFTERNOON AND TONIGHT. JZI IS REPORTING 5SM IN HAZE AS
A RESULT. UNCLEAR HOW LONG THE DUST LAYER WILL BE WITH US. BUT
THERE MAY BE OCCASIONAL REDUCED SURFACE VISIBILITIES THROUGH
THURSDAY.

Edit: Per the 7/31/22 SAL pic posted elsewhere, there must have been another one here on that day.
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2685 Postby skyline385 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:15 pm

I thought SSTs weren't everything :D
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2686 Postby skyline385 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:18 pm

Teban54 wrote:
cycloneye wrote:Ok, stop the presses. Phil is here.

https://twitter.com/philklotzbach/status/1557507259831160832

It surely feels very strange that current MDR SSTs are only running behind 2010, 2005, 2020, 2017 and 2016, yet a lot of recent discussions here would lead you to believe the season has lackluster MDR and guaranteed stability issues among others. :lol:

Notice that Phil is using raw SSTs and not SST anomalies, so this could be affected by global warming. Additionally, 2009, 2008, 1998 and 2011 closely follow behind 2022 in SSTs to date (0.05°C difference).


This is kinda why some mets (Blake in particular) seem to be proponents of (SSTa - Global Mean Temp), global warming has somewhat skewed the definition of anomalous temps.
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2687 Postby captainbarbossa19 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:22 pm

WiscoWx02 wrote:
captainbarbossa19 wrote:
WiscoWx02 wrote:
Watch him be right though :lol: :grrr:

Yeah bad idea to look at models and say they will be 100% current. Models tend to “nowcast” more than anything this time of year and assume the dry air and wavebreaking will continue on overdrive simply because it is now. I remember this happening in almost every single year if not EVERY single year. Trust me, once we get to August 20th, things should start to stir. I think we need that timeline of the hurricane season to be reposted just as a reminder of where we are at :D


Are you referring to this timeline?

captainbarbossa19 wrote:4. August 1st: Atlantic is still slow. Dry, stable air is present in the tropics. However, models are beginning to suggest things will be changing within a few weeks.
5. August 15th: Models show nothing in the near-future. Many are becoming skeptical about the season amounting to anything significant.



Yep!!!!


Ok good. I was hoping I didn't insert my timeline into the conversation unnecessarily.

I see nothing unusual going on with the tropics right now. Many are saying "there is something wrong out there." We go through this every year. Yes, the tropics are very slow right now. Also, yes, the models show nothing happening anytime soon. However, if you look at Dr. Klotzbach's chart, the majority of years (all but 2009 and 2005) featured the first major after August 20. This is why I say not to be alarmed or concerned about anything now because models can literally flip in one run and start showing 3-5 storms forming consistently. Climate models can also change in this manner. I think 95% of all the panic and concern being stressed here is driven from models. We cannot let models cloud our judgment. It leads to the dark side of forecasting.

Image

Sorry, I couldn't resist posting a reference to Star Wars here. :D
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2688 Postby skyline385 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:33 pm

Teban54 wrote:
cycloneye wrote:Ok, stop the presses. Phil is here.

https://twitter.com/philklotzbach/status/1557507259831160832

It surely feels very strange that current MDR SSTs are only running behind 2010, 2005, 2020, 2017 and 2016, yet a lot of recent discussions here would lead you to believe the season has lackluster MDR and guaranteed stability issues among others. :lol:

Notice that Phil is using raw SSTs and not SST anomalies, so this could be affected by global warming. Additionally, 2009, 2008, 1998 and 2011 closely follow behind 2022 in SSTs to date (0.05°C difference).


While I agree with your sentiment about global warming, all those years belong to the recent 1991-2020 climo. So, even if you were to use SSTa, the result would be the same as you are subtracting the same averaged temperature from them.
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2689 Postby Hammy » Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:41 pm

weeniepatrol wrote:


Average ACE of these years is 162.7. Subtract 2009 because obviously we are not in a Strong El Nino and this rises to 176.4.


2022 is running behind all of those years save for 1998 and 2009 (both of which were Nino years at this point, or at least recovering from one in 1998's case)

captainbarbossa19 wrote:I see nothing unusual going on with the tropics right now. Many are saying "there is something wrong out there." We go through this every year. Yes, the tropics are very slow right now.


What is 'concerning' for me is the waves are coming off as far north as they are, close to 20N--where the SSTs are cooler (less than 25C as they gain latitude) and the air is naturally much drier. That in itself is definitely not normal, and as a result they're actually pulling more dust with them, rather than what we normally see where the waves help moisten the atmosphere. They need to start coming off further south before that can occur.

Not by any stretch saying this season is a bust by any stretch but there's something we're missing (and I'm mostly trying to figure out exactly what that is) and things may not get going as soon as most of us were expecting.
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2690 Postby skyline385 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:50 pm

Hammy wrote:
weeniepatrol wrote:


Average ACE of these years is 162.7. Subtract 2009 because obviously we are not in a Strong El Nino and this rises to 176.4.


2022 is running behind all of those years save for 1998 and 2009 (both of which were Nino years at this point, or at least recovering from one in 1998's case)

captainbarbossa19 wrote:I see nothing unusual going on with the tropics right now. Many are saying "there is something wrong out there." We go through this every year. Yes, the tropics are very slow right now.


What is 'concerning' for me is the waves are coming off as far north as they are--that in itself is definitely not normal, and they're actually pulling more dust with them, rather than what we normally see where the waves help moisten the atmosphere. They need to start coming off further south before that can occur.

Not by any stretch saying this season is a bust by any stretch but there's something we're missing and things may not get going as early as most of us were expecting.


I suggested the same thing on #wxtwitter earlier today that the ITCZ seems to be displaced northwards so that the waves coming out are not able to completely detach from it without running into the dry air up north. The cool water pool dumping dry air into towards the MDR seems to be exacerbating the problem as well. Someone with more knowledge of the ITCZ behaviour can probably shed some more light on this.

Also, if you look at the mid-level RH plots on the African coast, you can see some very robust waves coming in but they immediately get killed off just as soon as they enter the Atlantic.

Image
Last edited by skyline385 on Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2691 Postby Deshaunrob17 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:04 pm

Something could be off or we’re probably experiencing a normal
Active season

However if this season fall short , there probably is a connection with strong & 3rd year La Niña … Strong La Niñas have busy hurricane seasons, but not super busy ones.. The 3rd year La Nina’s in tend to have average to below average years
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2692 Postby weeniepatrol » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:15 pm

Hammy wrote:
What is 'concerning' for me is the waves are coming off as far north as they are, close to 20N--where the SSTs are cooler (less than 25C as they gain latitude) and the air is naturally much drier. That in itself is definitely not normal, and as a result they're actually pulling more dust with them, rather than what we normally see where the waves help moisten the atmosphere. They need to start coming off further south before that can occur.

Not by any stretch saying this season is a bust by any stretch but there's something we're missing (and I'm mostly trying to figure out exactly what that is) and things may not get going as soon as most of us were expecting.


Not concerning nor unusual.

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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2693 Postby skyline385 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:29 pm

weeniepatrol wrote:
Hammy wrote:
What is 'concerning' for me is the waves are coming off as far north as they are, close to 20N--where the SSTs are cooler (less than 25C as they gain latitude) and the air is naturally much drier. That in itself is definitely not normal, and as a result they're actually pulling more dust with them, rather than what we normally see where the waves help moisten the atmosphere. They need to start coming off further south before that can occur.

Not by any stretch saying this season is a bust by any stretch but there's something we're missing (and I'm mostly trying to figure out exactly what that is) and things may not get going as soon as most of us were expecting.


Not concerning nor unusual.

https://imgur.com/03QcUgc


The full report is actually a little more interesting, CPC says that it is currently in an "overall anomalous northerly position", the eastern portion in particular was displaced by almost 2° in July. It would be interesting to read how these variations affect TCG.

https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/ ... f/itcz.pdf
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2694 Postby TROPICALCYCLONEALERT » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:52 pm

Lots of talk regarding wavebreaking and not enough people knowing what it is…

To put it simply, "wavebreaking" is part of the process of heat redistribution around the planet, particularly in the midlatitudes where deep, tropical thunderstorms don't really occur. Considering the fluidity of our atmosphere, this is essentially a constant and ongoing somewhere on the planet at all times. It has no start or stop which makes distinguishing individual events somewhat difficult.

Let's take the example of an upper-level trough crossing United States, slowly becoming negatively tilted as it approaches the eastern shoreline of the continent. Ahead of this trough, a strong jet streak creates a region of intense upper-level diffluent flow -- essentially a vacuum of sorts aloft that forces air in the column beneath to rise. As it rises, it expands in response to the lessened atmospheric pressure and cools as a result. This cooling converts the gaseous air parcel into a cloud; convection. As this airmass condenses, heat is released from the water molecules into the atmosphere, causing subtle but impactful warming. We often hear this part of the process referred to as "latent heat release", with the first two parts of the term indicating that this process has to do with condensation (or melting!). This warming causes the atmosphere to expand in that particular area, which means it takes up more space and is literally higher in a sense. This is represented by positive geopotential height anomalies or positive potential vorticity at that level. The trough --> ridge pattern I just described is the classic cyclonic wavebreak (CWB).

The opposite, a ridge --> trough pattern, forms the typical anticyclonic wavebreak pattern. The expanding upper-level ridge created by the CWB takes up space and must subside somewhere downwind. Usually, this subsidence causes compression aloft, thus lowering geopotential heights (and by extension, a tendency towards negative potential vorticity). While both forms of wavebreaking are omnipresent, anticyclonic wavebreaks arguably impact tropical cyclone activity more directly than their counterparts. In this particular scenario, midlatitude ridging becomes dominant over the North Atlantic. In response, wavebreaking intensifies equatorward as troughing is shunted south and possibly even cutoff from the jet stream. This process reinforces the tropical upper tropospheric trough, a climatological feature that stretches through most of the subtropical Atlantic, potentially strengthening it or impacting its placement. This on its own can lead to higher shear in area adjacent to the main development region, making it more difficult to sustain intense tropical cyclones for a long period of time. As troughs get forced into the subtropics, midlatitude dry air can also make its way down to regions where hurricanes are common posing an additional threat alongside the common Saharan Air Layer. Wavebreaking and these side-effects are common and are even expected most months of the year, including July and the first half of August. If it persists into September though, we might have a problem with regards to how active the season will end up being. With the MJO expected to cross Africa and the Indian Ocean towards the end of the month though, we may see this midlatitude activity let up somewhat.
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2695 Postby Hammy » Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:30 pm

weeniepatrol wrote:
Hammy wrote:
What is 'concerning' for me is the waves are coming off as far north as they are, close to 20N--where the SSTs are cooler (less than 25C as they gain latitude) and the air is naturally much drier. That in itself is definitely not normal, and as a result they're actually pulling more dust with them, rather than what we normally see where the waves help moisten the atmosphere. They need to start coming off further south before that can occur.

Not by any stretch saying this season is a bust by any stretch but there's something we're missing (and I'm mostly trying to figure out exactly what that is) and things may not get going as soon as most of us were expecting.


Not concerning nor unusual.

https://imgur.com/03QcUgc


Except this doesn't tell even half the story--the low pressure centers usually form and exit south of this line, not even with it. Waves actually exiting Africa near 20N is quite unusual
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2696 Postby NotSparta » Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:36 pm

Hammy wrote:https://i.imgur.com/iS6QPF5.png

Given we had only one storm after September last year, the CFS is showing significant sinking air over the tropical Atlantic and Africa during September, and the tropical waves continue to come off too far north to escape the cooler waters/dust, I think we should at least start asking if there's something larger going on that we're not seeing.


The CFS is consistently horrible with VP like this. Not sure how it gets things wrong so often. Almost always can't resist putting sinking air over Africa and rising air in the WPAC. Probably best to disregard it
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2697 Postby chaser1 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:49 pm

I'm in full agreement with the prior post. "Wave-Breaks" is SO 2022 and I for one am over it.
The answer is painfully obvious to me so I'm just going to come out and say it - "The Atlantic Migratory Mullet Anomaly" (AMMA)
(stay out of the water, the connection is real)
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2698 Postby NDG » Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:59 pm

The story so far this month despite a warm MDR.
SSTs is not everything. We will see if conditions do indeed change at the end of the month as some long range models and pros indicate.


Image
Image
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2699 Postby zzh » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:27 am

skyline385 wrote:I thought SSTs weren't everything :D

It's everything when it's warm. It's nothing when it's cold. :lol:
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#2700 Postby Kingarabian » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:52 am

NDG wrote:The story so far this month despite a warm MDR.
SSTs is not everything. We will see if conditions do indeed change at the end of the month as some long range models and pros indicate.


https://i.imgur.com/Kemoz4o.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/g3IUKWg.jpg


Looks like shear associated with the TUTT is weakening compared to your previous shear graphic a couple of days ago.
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