2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

This is the general tropical discussion area. Anyone can take their shot at predicting a storms path.

Moderator: S2k Moderators

Forum rules

The posts in this forum are NOT official forecasts and should not be used as such. They are just the opinion of the poster and may or may not be backed by sound meteorological data. They are NOT endorsed by any professional institution or STORM2K. For official information, please refer to products from the National Hurricane Center and National Weather Service.

Help Support Storm2K
Message
Author
Category5Kaiju
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 3344
Age: 22
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:45 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#41 Postby Category5Kaiju » Mon Mar 06, 2023 3:21 pm

CyclonicFury wrote:The March ECMWF seasonal is out (and it goes through JAS). It does show El Nino conditions, but basin-wide warmth in the Atlantic. This seems to be a trend in the climate models, if it verifies the basin-wide warmth could cancel out some of the El Nino effects. It shows above-normal pressures in the tropical Atlantic and below-normal precipitation, but nothing that would go as far to say "season cancel." Through the end of September, the ECMWF calls for 90% of normal ACE in the Atlantic, with 10.7 tropical storms and 5.1 hurricanes. In the past, this model significantly underestimated Atlantic activity, but it seems the bias may have been over-corrected, as last year it was way too high with Atlantic activity.

Nino 3.4 plume
https://i.imgur.com/vBNREsz.png

SST anomaly
https://i.imgur.com/jZc3c5G.png

Precipitation anomaly
https://i.imgur.com/lU3QMR6.png

MSLP anomaly tercile
https://i.imgur.com/inJc119.png

Atlantic ACE (90% of normal through September - sounds about right since El Nino seasons often end earlier).
https://i.imgur.com/lubqiI3.png

Tropical storms (10.7 through the end of September)
https://i.imgur.com/aEQU9Gg.png

Hurricanes (5.1 through the end of September)
https://i.imgur.com/RbRAvxW.png


It's kind of funny to see that the Atlantic has arguably the most favorable sst anomaly profile since 2020 (where the deep tropics are above average and a warm Canary Current already in place as iirc 2021 and 2022 were not as warm at this point in time), in a year that is expected to enter +ENSO territory rather than La Nina. Very curious to see what activity will look like assuming there is robust warmth in the basin by ASO. I agree, unlike many of the recent El Nino years (this also include 2018 for that matter), the Atlantic is starting off very strong and healthy with its sst anomalies, and if this holds we could potentially see a season more active than expected.

I can assure you that if we were in a first year La Nina with this warmth, we could potentially see a hyperactive season. El Nino or warm neutral might press the brakes a bit thankfully.
0 likes   
Unless explicitly stated, all information covered in my posts is based on my opinions and observations. Please refer to a professional meteorologist or an accredited weather research agency otherwise, especially if serious decisions must be made in the event of a potentially life-threatening tropical storm or hurricane.

User avatar
SFLcane
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 9606
Age: 46
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:44 pm
Location: Lake Worth Florida

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#42 Postby SFLcane » Tue Mar 07, 2023 8:22 am

Hi guys, don’t let this El Niño talk lull you to sleep it might be a little slower year but it says nothing were they might track. I lived through it in 92. For example Seven storms could form and 2-3 could slam into the Conus.
0 likes   

User avatar
NotSparta
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 1645
Age: 22
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:24 am
Location: Naples, FL
Contact:

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#43 Postby NotSparta » Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:11 am

SFLcane wrote:Hi guys, don’t let this El Niño talk lull you to sleep it might be a little slower year but it says nothing were they might track. I lived through it in 92. For example Seven storms could form and 2-3 could slam into the Conus.


1992 was a cool neutral year
0 likes   
This post was probably an opinion of mine, and in no way is official. Please refer to http://www.hurricanes.gov for official tropical analysis and advisories.

My website, with lots of tropical wx graphics, including satellite and recon: http://cyclonicwx.com

User avatar
SFLcane
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 9606
Age: 46
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:44 pm
Location: Lake Worth Florida

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#44 Postby SFLcane » Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:23 pm

NotSparta wrote:
SFLcane wrote:Hi guys, don’t let this El Niño talk lull you to sleep it might be a little slower year but it says nothing were they might track. I lived through it in 92. For example Seven storms could form and 2-3 could slam into the Conus.


1992 was a cool neutral year


Enso was not the point lol i was referring to slow years such as 2023 which could potentially be one.
0 likes   

mixedDanilo.E
Tropical Depression
Tropical Depression
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:00 am

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#45 Postby mixedDanilo.E » Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:49 pm

Category5Kaiju wrote:
CyclonicFury wrote:The March ECMWF seasonal is out (and it goes through JAS). It does show El Nino conditions, but basin-wide warmth in the Atlantic. This seems to be a trend in the climate models, if it verifies the basin-wide warmth could cancel out some of the El Nino effects. It shows above-normal pressures in the tropical Atlantic and below-normal precipitation, but nothing that would go as far to say "season cancel." Through the end of September, the ECMWF calls for 90% of normal ACE in the Atlantic, with 10.7 tropical storms and 5.1 hurricanes. In the past, this model significantly underestimated Atlantic activity, but it seems the bias may have been over-corrected, as last year it was way too high with Atlantic activity.

Nino 3.4 plume
https://i.imgur.com/vBNREsz.png

SST anomaly
https://i.imgur.com/jZc3c5G.png

Precipitation anomaly
https://i.imgur.com/lU3QMR6.png

MSLP anomaly tercile
https://i.imgur.com/inJc119.png

Atlantic ACE (90% of normal through September - sounds about right since El Nino seasons often end earlier).
https://i.imgur.com/lubqiI3.png

Tropical storms (10.7 through the end of September)
https://i.imgur.com/aEQU9Gg.png

Hurricanes (5.1 through the end of September)
https://i.imgur.com/RbRAvxW.png


It's kind of funny to see that the Atlantic has arguably the most favorable sst anomaly profile since 2020 (where the deep tropics are above average and a warm Canary Current already in place as iirc 2021 and 2022 were not as warm at this point in time), in a year that is expected to enter +ENSO territory rather than La Nina. Very curious to see what activity will look like assuming there is robust warmth in the basin by ASO. I agree, unlike many of the recent El Nino years (this also include 2018 for that matter), the Atlantic is starting off very strong and healthy with its sst anomalies, and if this holds we could potentially see a season more active than expected.

I can assure you that if we were in a first year La Nina with this warmth, we could potentially see a hyperactive season. El Nino or warm neutral might press the brakes a bit thankfully.


MDR has been warming up quite significantly in the last week or so and has begun to gain that +AMO look once again. CFS weeklies has the weaker trades lasting general through the entire forecast period in the atlantic and advancing some too deeper into April. If it's right, I'd even watch if this years ends up being warm neutral still or weak el nino for it to be much more active than some people may be thinking. Above normal and even hyperactive seasons are possible during El Nino's and it's happened in the past. We'll just have to wait and see.
3 likes   

Category5Kaiju
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 3344
Age: 22
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:45 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#46 Postby Category5Kaiju » Wed Mar 08, 2023 11:17 am

Aside from the absurd basin warmth in the Atlantic currently, there is another key point that I would like to point out that might come in handy to know as we enter the hurricane season in the coming months (and, especially, if we do indeed get an El Nino).

The general idea behind people saying how El Ninos shut down the Atlantic because of high wind shear is definitely true and not without merit. However, especially as we saw last year, I wouldn't necessarily call wind shear alone as anything close to being an automatic deathblow for any potential TCs. While it may limit the number of storms in general, storms like Ian (and Michael back in 2018) could become shear-resistant and still grow to very powerful strengths. I would argue that mid-level dry air is probably an even greater limiting factor for activity than wind shear; as we saw last year, you can have lengthy periods of time with low wind shear but high mid-level dry air levels, and this is enough to literally prevent named storms from forming.

It's also kind of amusing to see how at least in recent times, the two years with notable mid-level dry air issues/wave-breaking, 2013 and 2022, were not +ENSO years.
3 likes   
Unless explicitly stated, all information covered in my posts is based on my opinions and observations. Please refer to a professional meteorologist or an accredited weather research agency otherwise, especially if serious decisions must be made in the event of a potentially life-threatening tropical storm or hurricane.

mixedDanilo.E
Tropical Depression
Tropical Depression
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:00 am

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#47 Postby mixedDanilo.E » Wed Mar 08, 2023 11:41 am

Category5Kaiju wrote:Aside from the absurd basin warmth in the Atlantic currently, there is another key point that I would like to point out that might come in handy to know as we enter the hurricane season in the coming months (and, especially, if we do indeed get an El Nino).

The general idea behind people saying how El Ninos shut down the Atlantic because of high wind shear is definitely true and not without merit. However, especially as we saw last year, I wouldn't necessarily call wind shear alone as anything close to being an automatic deathblow for any potential TCs. While it may limit the number of storms in general, storms like Ian (and Michael back in 2018) could become shear-resistant and still grow to very powerful strengths. I would argue that mid-level dry air is probably an even greater limiting factor for activity than wind shear; as we saw last year, you can have lengthy periods of time with low wind shear but high mid-level dry air levels, and this is enough to literally prevent named storms from forming.

It's also kind of amusing to see how at least in recent times, the two years with notable mid-level dry air issues/wave-breaking, 2013 and 2022, were not +ENSO years.


I was looking back at pre-season talks from 2017 and levi cowan had a map showing the different years and their comparison of temp of the ENSO and the temp of the anomalies of the MDR. He mentioned that the seasons that have greatest spread are +ENSO years that have warm MDRs. I think that's something to really consider this year as well.
2 likes   

User avatar
cycloneye
Admin
Admin
Posts: 139008
Age: 67
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:54 am
Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#48 Postby cycloneye » Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:07 am

The jury is still out on how the 2023 season will play out with the growing chance of having El Niño for ASO.

 https://twitter.com/philklotzbach/status/1633833750550446083


1 likes   
Visit the Caribbean-Central America Weather Thread where you can find at first post web cams,radars
and observations from Caribbean basin members Click Here

User avatar
SFLcane
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 9606
Age: 46
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:44 pm
Location: Lake Worth Florida

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#49 Postby SFLcane » Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:12 am

cycloneye wrote:The jury is still out on how the 2023 season will play out with the growing chance of having El Niño for ASO.

https://twitter.com/philklotzbach/status/1633833750550446083


Hi luis, El nino, Neutral, La nina says nothing on were this years storms will travel everyone should prepare the same regardless of the numbers predicted. Can't stress this enough some of the most nasty hurricanes have hit the Conus during slow years.
2 likes   

Category5Kaiju
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 3344
Age: 22
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:45 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#50 Postby Category5Kaiju » Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:14 am

I'm genuinely curious to see how this affects future Atlantic activity (assuming we do indeed get an El Nino but also have this warm sst anomaly profile persist into the late summer). I cannot seem to find an El Nino year, at least since 1995, that had this level of Atlantic warmth by this time of the year.

Image
2 likes   
Unless explicitly stated, all information covered in my posts is based on my opinions and observations. Please refer to a professional meteorologist or an accredited weather research agency otherwise, especially if serious decisions must be made in the event of a potentially life-threatening tropical storm or hurricane.

mixedDanilo.E
Tropical Depression
Tropical Depression
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:00 am

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#51 Postby mixedDanilo.E » Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:20 am

Category5Kaiju wrote:I'm genuinely curious to see how this affects future Atlantic activity (assuming we do indeed get an El Nino but also have this warm sst anomaly profile persist into the late summer). I cannot seem to find an El Nino year, at least since 1995, that had this level of Atlantic warmth by this time of the year.

https://i.imgur.com/yNCcSuN.png


It's also been the warmest this time of year in the Atlantic since 2020.
0 likes   

User avatar
JetFuel_SE
Category 1
Category 1
Posts: 262
Age: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:57 pm

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#52 Postby JetFuel_SE » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:17 am

Category5Kaiju wrote:Aside from the absurd basin warmth in the Atlantic currently, there is another key point that I would like to point out that might come in handy to know as we enter the hurricane season in the coming months (and, especially, if we do indeed get an El Nino).

The general idea behind people saying how El Ninos shut down the Atlantic because of high wind shear is definitely true and not without merit. However, especially as we saw last year, I wouldn't necessarily call wind shear alone as anything close to being an automatic deathblow for any potential TCs. While it may limit the number of storms in general, storms like Ian (and Michael back in 2018) could become shear-resistant and still grow to very powerful strengths. I would argue that mid-level dry air is probably an even greater limiting factor for activity than wind shear; as we saw last year, you can have lengthy periods of time with low wind shear but high mid-level dry air levels, and this is enough to literally prevent named storms from forming.

It's also kind of amusing to see how at least in recent times, the two years with notable mid-level dry air issues/wave-breaking, 2013 and 2022, were not +ENSO years.

Models consistently got bad data, and thus overestimated how much shear there was.
Source: Bottom of page 12 and top of page 13 of Michael's TCR
1 likes   

User avatar
cycloneye
Admin
Admin
Posts: 139008
Age: 67
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:54 am
Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#53 Postby cycloneye » Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:17 am

El Niño may come but the waters are very warm in GOM, subtropics and in parts of MDR.

 https://twitter.com/hurricanetrack/status/1636369567789268992


1 likes   
Visit the Caribbean-Central America Weather Thread where you can find at first post web cams,radars
and observations from Caribbean basin members Click Here

Category5Kaiju
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 3344
Age: 22
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:45 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#54 Postby Category5Kaiju » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:57 pm

cycloneye wrote:El Niño may come but the waters are very warm in GOM, subtropics and in parts of MDR.

https://twitter.com/hurricanetrack/status/1636369567789268992


Thanks for sharing that cycloneye! It is going to be very interesting to see how +ENSO (potential El Nino) will evolve, but also the Atlantic sst anomalies. If something like that holds for the next few months going into summer, then I'd be interested to see if that actually could frontload this season, rather than backload it.
0 likes   
Unless explicitly stated, all information covered in my posts is based on my opinions and observations. Please refer to a professional meteorologist or an accredited weather research agency otherwise, especially if serious decisions must be made in the event of a potentially life-threatening tropical storm or hurricane.

User avatar
InfernoFlameCat
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 1966
Age: 21
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:52 am
Location: Buford, GA

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#55 Postby InfernoFlameCat » Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:23 pm

GOM temp is not a reliable predictor of Atlantic activity. However, severe weather on the other hand I don’t know. I would think yes, it would increase instability, but I’m not sure.
0 likes   
I am by no means a professional. DO NOT look at my forecasts for official information or make decisions based on what I post.

Goal: to become a registered expert over tropical and subtropical cyclones.

User avatar
JetFuel_SE
Category 1
Category 1
Posts: 262
Age: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:57 pm

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#56 Postby JetFuel_SE » Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:51 am

InfernoFlameCat wrote:GOM temp is not a reliable predictor of Atlantic activity. However, severe weather on the other hand I don’t know. I would think yes, it would increase instability, but I’m not sure.

If the anomalies do hold, that would however have implications on the potential intensity of systems that track there.
0 likes   

User avatar
Steve
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 8605
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 11:41 pm
Location: Not a state-caster

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#57 Postby Steve » Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:59 pm

Too early but almost a south displaced southern Atlantic El Niño look. Warm over cold over warm in the Atlantic last few runs. Probably won’t be the profile by summer, but for now

https://www.ospo.noaa.gov/Products/ocean/sst/anomaly/
0 likes   

User avatar
WalterWhite
Category 1
Category 1
Posts: 311
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:53 pm

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#58 Postby WalterWhite » Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:02 pm

As of now, it appears as if the Atlantic is going to take a break this season. We have still not passed the spring predictability barrier, but historically, 4-year La Ninas are very rare. With the odds in favor of an El Nino this year (one where the Pacific is warmer than the Atlantic), this hurricane season will likely be quieter than previous ones. The Atlantic basin was warmer-than-average the past few years and will likely continue to be so, but a very warm equatorial Pacific will create sinking air over the Atlantic, suppressing activity.

If we get a 4th-year La Nina, the equation will certainly change, and an above-average season would be favored; but given the expected El Nino, we will likely have a below-average season this year.

Image

Image

Image

Although, a small part of me questions whether or not conditions matter all that much. The fact that 2022 was less active than 2018 and 2019 even though 2022 had a more favorable SST pattern than either of those years makes me question how much of activity is luck-based. (good luck = inactive; bad luck = active)
0 likes   

Category5Kaiju
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 3344
Age: 22
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:45 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#59 Postby Category5Kaiju » Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:51 pm

WalterWhite wrote:As of now, it appears as if the Atlantic is going to take a break this season. We have still not passed the spring predictability barrier, but historically, 4-year La Ninas are very rare. With the odds in favor of an El Nino this year (one where the Pacific is warmer than the Atlantic), this hurricane season will likely be quieter than previous ones. The Atlantic basin was warmer-than-average the past few years and will likely continue to be so, but a very warm equatorial Pacific will create sinking air over the Atlantic, suppressing activity.

If we get a 4th-year La Nina, the equation will certainly change, and an above-average season would be favored; but given the expected El Nino, we will likely have a below-average season this year.

https://i.postimg.cc/MH8F1RYT/cfs-mon-01-ssta-Mean-month-global-5.png

https://i.postimg.cc/SR7tdsZG/nino34-Sea.png

https://i.postimg.cc/m2BnDYDp/ps2png-worker-commands-74fc64594-vfb65-6fe5cac1a363ec1525f54343b6cc9fd8-g8p-C.png

Although, a small part of me questions whether or not conditions matter all that much. The fact that 2022 was less active than 2018 and 2019 even though 2022 had a more favorable SST pattern than either of those years makes me question how much of activity is luck-based. (good luck = inactive; bad luck = active)


There's actually speculation that 2022's third year La Nina status caused it to underperform substantially (aside from the horrific disasters caused by Fiona and Ian). Although not a huge sample size, the past recorded years since 1950 that were third year La Nina or -ENSO events have tended to do worse ACE-wise compared to the previous two La Nina/-ENSO years. Exactly why is not really well understood, but given this observed phenomenon, there could reasonably be something said about how La Ninas can "run out of gas." Hence, a hypothetical fourth year La Nina may not actually be that promising for above average activity.

Now shifting our focus to El Nino years, it is important to point out the distinction between "quiet season" and "impactless season." El Ninos do tend to reduce overall Atlantic activity, but you can still have an El Nino year that brings significant impacts. Betsy (1965), David/Frederic (1979), Isidore/Lily (2002), and Florence/Michael (2018) are some of such examples. Not to mention the 1969 and 2004 seasons. With how warm the Atlantic is (a much more favorable sst profile than even 2021 and 2022 had at this point in time), assuming this holds, it honestly wouldn't surprise me if we see a storm or two end up attaining potent strengths during the hurricane season.
5 likes   
Unless explicitly stated, all information covered in my posts is based on my opinions and observations. Please refer to a professional meteorologist or an accredited weather research agency otherwise, especially if serious decisions must be made in the event of a potentially life-threatening tropical storm or hurricane.

User avatar
cycloneye
Admin
Admin
Posts: 139008
Age: 67
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:54 am
Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico

Re: 2023 Indicators (SST, SAL, MSLP, Wind shear, Steering, Instability) and Day 16+ Models

#60 Postby cycloneye » Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:06 pm

FYI= The Alex Boreham site is back up after some months out. I like it as it has many things to look at in real time like these.

Image

Image

https://cyclonicwx.com/
7 likes   
Visit the Caribbean-Central America Weather Thread where you can find at first post web cams,radars
and observations from Caribbean basin members Click Here


Return to “Talkin' Tropics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: KirbyDude25 and 39 guests