Can the Greek alphabet storms be retired?

[Aqua Teen Hunger Force]

Assuming we get to greek letters, and one of them becomes a cat 5 (which I heard means being automatically retired) would it still get retired though? If so, what will replace it?

[sma10]

Good question. I assume that if it was just named "Alpha", then they would have to retire Alpha. But they might name it Alpha2005 and then they wouldn't really have to worry about it. Personally, I don't think we'll have to worry about this situation for a long, long time.

[senorpepr]

Wow... this question keeps popping up. I'll repeat once again.

A) Storms are NOT automatically retired if they become category five. They must cause significant damage and/or casualities. A category five fish will NOT be retired.

B) The "overtime" storms will be named: "Alpha" "Beta" "Gamma" etc. No year will be tacked on the end.

C) Greek letters will NOT be retired. They don't retire depression numbers and they don't retire Greek letters. Only names that cause significant damage and/or casualities.

[FunkMasterB]

I don't know the answer, but I think they shouldn't retire the whole letter but should give numbers to the subsequent storms with that name.

So, if Hurricane Alpha is a major hurricane, you can retire that name, but the next year we 'batted around' we'd call the storm Alpha 2. That's the way I'd do it.

I wonder if that made any sense.

[FunkMasterB]

C) Greek letters will NOT be retired. They don't retire depression numbers and they don't retire Greek letters. Only names that cause significant damage and/or casualities.

Yes, but what if a Greek lettered storm causes significant damage and/or casualties? That's the question (I think).

[senorpepr]

C) Greek letters will NOT be retired. They don't retire depression numbers and they don't retire Greek letters. Only names that cause significant damage and/or casualities.

Yes, but what if a Greek lettered storm causes significant damage and/or casualties? That's the question (I think).

Note that I said "names" will be retired... not letters.

Names like Andrew, Charley, and Katrina can be retired.
Letters like Alpha, Beta, and Gamma cannot be retired.
Numbers like One, Two, and Three cannot be retired.

[wxmann_91]

Storms are NOT automatically retired if they become category five. They must cause significant damage and/or casualities. A category five fish will NOT be retired.

Thanks for bringing that up. And here's a good example:



Hurricane Dog in 1950 lasted 48 hours as a Cat 5, second longest-lasting Cat 5 in recorded history. The name Dog came back in 1951 and was never retired.

[sma10]

C) Greek letters will NOT be retired. They don't retire depression numbers and they don't retire Greek letters. Only names that cause significant damage and/or casualities.

Yes, but what if a Greek lettered storm causes significant damage and/or casualties? That's the question (I think).

Note that I said "names" will be retired... not letters.

Names like Andrew, Charley, and Katrina can be retired.
Letters like Alpha, Beta, and Gamma cannot be retired.
Numbers like One, Two, and Three cannot be retired.

Pepr I'm gonna challenge you on this one.

For the sake of argument, let's say Alpha forms in late Oct this year in the Caribbean. After striking Haiti and Dominican Rep (killing 50,000 people) it moves into the Gulf and strikes Houston/Galveston (killing another 500 people and causing damages of $100 Billion). Fast forward to 2006. We have yet another blockbuster season and reach storm #22. Do you honestly believe NHC will begin issuing advisories on Alpha? You may think so, but I don't.

[senorpepr]

Well... your example really isn't all that good, but nice try. Dog is not a name... it's a letter and therefore couldn't be retired even if it struck land.

Ethel (1960) was category five for a short time before making landfall on the Gulf Coast. It was not retired. Ethel is one of three category fives that weren't retired.

However... using your example to drive home another point...

Back in the early 50s we used a military alphabet for naming storms. (Able, Baker, Charley) Once again... names can be retired, but letters (such as Able, Baker, and Charley [the letter, not the name]) cannot.

Case in point... Baker 1950 caused a bit of damage/casualties along Alabama and Florida. Had this been a named storm instead of a lettered storm, it would have been retired.

Easy 1950 struck Florida as a three. It also cause quite a bit of damage/casualities.

King 1950 struck Cuba as a three and caused damage/casualities.

All of the aforementioned names were used again.

Better yet... Charley 1951 [the letter, not the name] struck the Yucatan as a four. It was used again [as a letter, then a name].

Fox 1952 struck Cuba as a four. Once again, it was not retired.

[wxmann_91]

Well... your example really isn't all that good, but nice try. Dog is not a name... it's a letter and therefore couldn't be retired even if it struck land.

Ethel (1960) was category five for a short time before making landfall on the Gulf Coast. It was not retired. Ethel is one of three category fives that weren't retired.

However... using your example to drive home another point...

Back in the early 50s we used a military alphabet for naming storms. (Able, Baker, Charley) Once again... names can be retired, but letters (such as Able, Baker, and Charley [the letter, not the name]) cannot.

Case in point... Baker 1950 caused a bit of damage/casualties along Alabama and Florida. Had this been a named storm instead of a lettered storm, it would have been retired.

Easy 1950 struck Florida as a three. It also cause quite a bit of damage/casualities.

King 1950 struck Cuba as a three and caused damage/casualities.

All of the aforementioned names were used again.

Better yet... Charley 1951 [the letter, not the name] struck the Yucatan as a four. It was used again [as a letter, then a name].

Fox 1952 struck Cuba as a four. Once again, it was not retired.

Wow, ya learn something new every day (or night in this instance). Thanks for the FYI Senorpepr. I had never known that.

[senorpepr]

Pepr I'm gonna challenge you on this one.

For the sake of argument, let's say Alpha forms in late Oct this year in the Caribbean. After striking Haiti and Dominican Rep (killing 50,000 people) it moves into the Gulf and strikes Houston/Galveston (killing another 500 people and causing damages of $100 Billion). Fast forward to 2006. We have yet another blockbuster season and reach storm #22. Do you honestly believe NHC will begin issuing advisories on Alpha? You may think so, but I don't.

Well... like I said in my last post... there was no problem reusing letters back in the early 50s each year after they caused plenty of damage. Plenty of people have died from a depression called "12". That number isn't retired. You won't see Alpha retired in the example you have above. It's just how it goes.

[senorpepr]

Ethel (1960) was category five for a short time before making landfall on the Gulf Coast. It was not retired. Ethel is one of three category fives that weren't retired.

To add on...

Ethel (1960) and Cleo (1958) were both category fives without being retired.

As for the third: Edith (1971). Edith actually struck Central America as a category five. Thankfully it only killed 43 people. Although it was never used again, it was never retired.

[wxmann_91]

Ethel (1960) was category five for a short time before making landfall on the Gulf Coast. It was not retired. Ethel is one of three category fives that weren't retired.

To add on...

Ethel (1960) and Cleo (1958) were both category fives without being retired.

As for the third: Edith (1971). Edith actually struck Central America as a category five. Thankfully it only killed 43 people. Although it was never used again, it was never retired.

Well sorry if this hijacks the original thread but did Ethel really reach Cat 5? I mean it would be pretty amazing to have a TS in the middle of the GOM that explodes to a Cat 5 off the mouth of the Mississippi River, but then implodes again in the last 100 miles before landfall to a TS. Would be amazing on radar to say the least.

Numerous members, including Derek Ortt, have said that Ethel didn't reach Cat 5. From what you've written, and all the historical sources out there, the consensus is that it did. What do you think? B/C if Ethel really didn't reach Cat 5 well then one of your examples would be off.

[Matt-hurricanewatcher]

There is no way Ethel was a cat5. How could it I mean tropical storm to cat5 then tropical storm for landfall.

[senorpepr]

Well... Derek's claim that Ethel was not a category five is his professional opinion. To be honest, in my professional opinion, I agree with him. I find it hard to believe. However, until the reanalysis states otherwise, it was a category five.



Here are a couple of govt websites listing Ethel as a category five:
http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/satellite/s ... t5hur.html
http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Storm_page ... TLdate.dat

[abajan]

Hurricane Dog in 1950 lasted 48 hours as a Cat 5, second longest-lasting Cat 5 in recorded history. The name Dog came back in 1951 and was never retired.

Wow, seems dogs have nine lives too!

[jimvb]

The principle that names get retired but numbers and letters don't is merely a rule about how we use words and letters, not a fact carved in stone. The NHC has not said as far as I can tell whether it would retire Alpha if it was a major storm that caused problems.

A (capital alpha) is a letter. Alpha is a word and a name. It is part of the name of the nearest star system to the Sun, Alpha Centauri.

Some alternatives for a destructive Alpha cyclone are:

Increment the name. Next year, the 22nd storm would be called Alphb.
Skip the name. Next year, the 22nd storm would be Beta.
Cycle the names. The 22nd storm this year would be Arlene; possibly Arlene 2.
Year the name. The 22nd storm this year would be Alpha 2005.
Use another alphabet. The 22nd storm next year would be Aleph.

[Weatherfreak14]

I wonder still if we will get that far this year because everytime, thankfuklly, we have a nice break from a storm it seems. Last year it seemed as every hurricane made landfall anotherone was born.

[inotherwords]

senorpepr, thanks for the fascinating info!

Question for you: who decides if a name is retired, is it NHC? Also, I wonder what their criteria for retirement is? I know it's significant damage and destruction, but you've also named a few Cat 3 storms that had this whose names were not retired. I'm just wondering how they judge what's significant, if they have some sort of benchmarks they look for.

Thanks! I know you say you've gone over this before but it was new to me and so I very much appreciate you discussing this again.

Maybe this could go in a S2K FAQ somewhere so you could just point people to it when the question pops up again.

I'm also curious: Since we started using the people names for storms, in which years (if any) did we have so many storms that we went into the alphas? Thanks again.

[jimvb]

None, as far as I know. The closest approach was 1933, which, if the naming system were used then, would have gone to W. That year had 21 storms.