YOU ARE BEING LIED TO

Discuss the recovery and aftermath of landfalling hurricanes. Please be sensitive to those that have been directly impacted. Political threads will be deleted without notice. This is the place to come together not divide.

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inotherwords
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#121 Postby inotherwords » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:41 pm

RichG wrote:Well I am real concerned about when the country "feels better". How about getting those people on the school buses and out of the city. Now those people are instead floating in the streets. Please check your poitical agendas at the door please. The people died because they were in the city while hundreds of school buses sat there and now are rusting in the water. I think freinds and family of those people who died would feel better right now if they were alive!


Rich, if you don't think politics or an absence of leadership was a problem with regard to managing this crisis, well...I don't know what I can tell you. We'll have to agree to disagree.
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RichG
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#122 Postby RichG » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:46 pm

inotherwords

Your comment is nonsensical. I just said the mayor parked hundreds of school buses while people who could not get out town drowned. Yes there was a complete lack of leadership. The plan was to put people on the buses and ship them out of town. Instead they are still sitting there
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FloridaHawk82
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#123 Postby FloridaHawk82 » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:51 pm

RichG wrote:inotherwords

Your comment is nonsensical. I just said the mayor parked hundreds of school buses while people who could not get out town drowned. Yes there was a complete lack of leadership. The plan was to put people on the buses and ship them out of town. Instead they are still sitting there


Not only that, but the NO City Govt ignored pleas from the NHC to order mandatory evac on Friday....

BTW... here are some of the busses in NO that were SUPPOSED to be used to evacuate the underprivelged...

Image
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#124 Postby NFLnut » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:54 pm

x-y-no wrote:You don't know me, and you have no idea what I do and do not have knowledge of, and yet you feel qualified to make assumptions about my motivations and launch ad hominem attacks on my alleged "ranting."

Quote the specifics of my alleged"ranting" you disagree with, please. And take into account the totality of my comments in this thread (if you have the intellectual integrity to do so). Or else stick it in your ear.

Good day!



.. and "Good day" to YOU too!

The problem is .. I HAVE read the totality of your comments, and that's what I based my prior response upon.

And I will be sticking NOTHING in my "ear!"
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GalvestonDuck
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#125 Postby GalvestonDuck » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:00 pm

Alright now, both of you take a chill pill before you say the wrong thing and we have to step in and snag ya outta here.

Keep it civil. Discuss it, but keep it civil

CONSIDER YOURSELVES WARNED.
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#126 Postby NFLnut » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:03 pm

<folds hands in front> as one of my favorite SNL character a few years ago used to say "Simmah down now!" :wink:
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#127 Postby x-y-no » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:04 pm

NFLnut wrote:
The problem is .. I HAVE read the totality of your comments, and that's what I based my prior response upon.


And yet apparently there is no piece of my "ranting" you can select and give a reasoned response to.

Let me help you out:

Maybe it was the part where I said there's "plenty of blame to go around, top to bottom." Yeah, that was a real rabid partisan comment.

Maybe it was the part where I agreed with AFM about failures on the part of the mayor and the governor, as well as individuals who were able to evacuate but chose not to. Yeah ... maybe your right ... kind of a crazed opinion on my part there ...

Have I hit on the piece of my "ranting" that I'm allegedly engaging in from my comfy chair and air-conditioning yet?

EDIT: In deference to the mods - I delete my last comment.
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webke
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Re: YOU ARE BEING LIED TO

#128 Postby webke » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:09 pm

TSmith274 wrote:I just heard an interview, recorded today, of our mayor Ray Nagin. He claims that everything the governor, FEMA, and the Dept. of Homeland Security director says are lies. He called it, and I quote... "Spin for the cameras". He says that he is getting the run-around by everyone, including the president. He says that he has witnessed people dying in front of him. He has been told that help will be arriving for the past three days. People are being found on their roofs DEAD. We are not getting to these people. This is an embarrassment, and I am ashamed of this country.


All I know is that if you think you can live abeeter life with all the freedom's that you currently enjoy in another country, then you need to move there.
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#129 Postby ChaserUK » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:11 pm

lets just say from my vantage point here in the UK its impossible to understand what is going on there. My info is from Fox and weather forums like Storm2K. All I can say is hold in there. As an overview, I could say that aid turned up too late, authorities have not acted enough and terrible things have happened in one form or another. But bear in mind Katrina has brought something different - its almost like a disaster beyond comprehension - I don't think ANYONE could have prepared ANYONE for that.

Things will get better and lessons will be learnt.
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#130 Postby kometes » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:12 pm

NFLnut wrote:I would bet that the Sec'y of State has a much tougher day, on any given day, than ANY of us! Give it a rest!


I would just like to point out here that Rice and Cheney are still on vacation.
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#131 Postby x-y-no » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:13 pm

GalvestonDuck wrote:Alright now, both of you take a chill pill before you say the wrong thing and we have to step in and snag ya outta here.

Keep it civil. Discuss it, but keep it civil

CONSIDER YOURSELVES WARNED.


I sure thought it was civil, until someone chose to fling an unfounded ad-hominem attack accusing me of ignorance and ranting.

I have and old habit of responding in kind when attacked. I try to curb it, but frequently I fail. I'll endeavor to do better.
Last edited by x-y-no on Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RichG
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#132 Postby RichG » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:14 pm

Really I just saw Rice in a live press conference 30 minutes ago at the state department. Check your political agenda at the door please.
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#133 Postby cancunkid » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:15 pm

How can any local authority recommend via the media evacuation of an area... but at the same time make no effort to transport the poor, the needy and even those most dependent on that authority -- the prisoners in the local jail -- simply beggars belief

I just found this in the emails on cnn.com. from a woman from London. It made me wonder why if the evacuation is mandatory why don't they have to evacuate prisoners? I would think if there was anyone who couldn't make a decision for themselves and had no way to get out it would be prisoners.
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NFLnut
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#134 Postby NFLnut » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:19 pm

x-y-no wrote:
NFLnut wrote:
The problem is .. I HAVE read the totality of your comments, and that's what I based my prior response upon.


And yet apparently there is no piece of my "ranting" you can select and give a reasoned response to.

Let me help you out:

Maybe it was the part where I said there's "plenty of blame to go around, top to bottom." Yeah, that was a real rabid partisan comment.

Maybe it was the part where I agreed with AFM about failures on the part of the mayor and the governor, as well as individuals who were able to evacuate but chose not to. Yeah ... maybe your right ... kind of a crazed opinion on my part there ...

Have I hit on the piece of my "ranting" that I'm allegedly engaging in from my comfy chair and air-conditioning yet?

EDIT: In deference to the mods - I delete my last comment.


Perhaps "ranting" wasn't the proper term.

My point is, trying to find who to point fingers at is useless! Do you want to discuss how the government could do a better job .. specifically? Do you see specific deficiencies in the response and have constructive criticism? Are these suggestions based on knowledge of what it takes to get the proper infrascturcture in place? Are you aware of why the Navy ships are still "in transit" and won't be there for another day or three? Fine. But trying to assign blame, to the Mayor, the Gov, the Pres, the SOS, etc is just pointless.

We can all "Monday Morning QB" this thing to death. And yet I doubt that most of us couldn't do anything, based on the same information available at any given moment, a whole lot different!

Yes, this is an open forum (until the Mods come in and squash us like bugs :wink: ) and I guess the "blame game" has been the topic du jour, but *I* think it is a waste of bandwidth. YMMV
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Brent
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#135 Postby Brent » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:19 pm

GalvestonDuck wrote:Alright now, both of you take a chill pill before you say the wrong thing and we have to step in and snag ya outta here.

Keep it civil. Discuss it, but keep it civil

CONSIDER YOURSELVES WARNED.


Image

:lol:
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#136 Postby flarrfan » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:28 pm

I'm getting a little tired of the school bus picture. Unless and until someone can establish with evidence that the mayor or other civil city authorities had the legal power to use those buses, I think it's time to stop putting that picture up. In most places, the buses are owned and controlled by the school district, which is usually a separate government entity. Maybe that's part of the legalities the mayor talked about Saturday...they were trying to make arrangements for transportation. I'm almost ashamed to admit that I am a local government lawyer, and today on a list serve I'm on, other local govt. lawyers from around the country were talking about all the various legal issues that go into planning for and coping with a natural disaster. I'm thinking that's some of what was going on Saturday while the mayor waited (too long) to call for mandatory evacuation.

I would also note that I responded on the list serv by asking my local govt. legal colleagues why in the world you would worry about legalities when a Cat 5 is bearing down on the most vulnerable city in the country, or why anyone in any local, state or federal legal position would worry about legalities in responding to the most profound natural disaster in my lifetime. IMO the local govt. lawyer needs to get out of the way and tell the client govt. to do whatever needs to be done to save lives and sort out the legalities later.

The interview I heard Saturday night had the mayor saying the city attorney was reviewing the legalities of ordering mandatory evacuation, probably in view of the city's lack of any means to provide transportation and potential liability. If true, it's an indictment of the city attorney for insisting on legalities that should have been worked out in advance or left to later, in view of the situation. If the mayor was simply spinning an inability to make a politically charged decision, then the blame is his.

I sure would like to hear what the city attorney has to say about her role in the evacuation delay. I'd also like to know what if anything the school superintendent or subordinate school district bureaucrats had to say about using the buses. As a 25-year veteran of government on state and local levels, I tend to think there's entirely too much blame being assigned here to the top officials from mayor to President, and not enough being laid at the foot of bureaucrats and lawyers, but then that's only based on my experience and what would I know?
Last edited by flarrfan on Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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#137 Postby mahicks » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:28 pm

Brent wrote:
GalvestonDuck wrote:Alright now, both of you take a chill pill before you say the wrong thing and we have to step in and snag ya outta here.

Keep it civil. Discuss it, but keep it civil

CONSIDER YOURSELVES WARNED.


Image

:lol:



AWESOME!!....I'm keepin that pic Brent.
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#138 Postby themusk » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:56 pm

flarrfan wrote:I'm getting a little tired of the school bus picture. Unless and until someone can establish with evidence that the mayor or other civil city authorities had the legal power to use those buses, I think it's time to stop putting that picture up. In most places, the buses are owned and controlled by the school district, which is usually a separate government entity. Maybe that's part of the legalities the mayor talked about Saturday...they were trying to make arrangements for transportation. I'm almost ashamed to admit that I am a local government lawyer, and today on a list serve I'm on, other local govt. lawyers from around the country were talking about all the various legal issues that go into planning for and coping with a natural disaster. I'm thinking that's some of what was going on Saturday while the mayor waited (too long) to call for mandatory evacuation.

I would also note that I responded on the list serv by asking my local govt. legal colleagues why in the world you would worry about legalities when a Cat 5 is bearing down on the most vulnerable city in the country, or why anyone in any local, state or federal legal position would worry about legalities in responding to the most profound natural disaster in my lifetime. IMO the local govt. lawyer needs to get out of the way and tell the client govt. to do whatever needs to be done to save lives and sort out the legalities later.

The interview I heard Saturday night had the mayor saying the city attorney was reviewing the legalities of ordering mandatory evacuation, probably in view of the city's lack of any means to provide transportation and potential liability. If true, it's an indictment of the city attorney for insisting on legalities that should have been worked out in advance or left to later, in view of the situation. If the mayor was simply spinning an inability to make a politically charged decision, then the blame is his.

I sure would like to hear what the city attorney has to say about her role in the evacuation delay. I'd also like to know what if anything the school superintendent or subordinate school district bureaucrats had to say about using the buses. As a 25-year veteran of government on state and local levels, I tend to think there's entirely too much blame being assigned here to the top officials from mayor to President, and not enough being laid at the foot of bureaucrats and lawyers, but then that's only based on my experience and what would I know?


Every now and then I hear a reasonable assessment of what went wrong. Yours is one. Yes, what happened is most likely a cascade of bad, sometimes politically motivated, decisions on many levels.

I suspect few of the bad decisions, taken in isolation, would be enough to create this catastrophe. But one bad decision has led to another and another and ... and now we have made a disaster into a national embarassment.

From my perspective (hazards research/emergency management), I see a failure either to plan for contingencies (of which the legalities are one, evacuation another) or a failure to execute the planning, coupled with a breakdown in the integrated emergency management system. The details of what went wrong are impossible to determine from a distance, but once the dust settles, many of the decisions that led to this will prove to have been taken by mid-level personnel.
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kometes
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#139 Postby kometes » Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:00 pm

RichG wrote:Really I just saw Rice in a live press conference 30 minutes ago at the state department. Check your political agenda at the door please.


Six days late? Check your spin please.
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#140 Postby schmita » Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:15 pm

kometes wrote:
RichG wrote:Really I just saw Rice in a live press conference 30 minutes ago at the state department. Check your political agenda at the door please.


Six days late? Check your spin please.


She is the Secretary of State. Please elucidate.

What part of the Constitution do you people not understand?

PS Loved the Chill pill
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