Judge rules Flood Damage not covered by Insurer in Katrina

Discuss the recovery and aftermath of landfalling hurricanes. Please be sensitive to those that have been directly impacted. Political threads will be deleted without notice. This is the place to come together not divide.

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Lindaloo
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#41 Postby Lindaloo » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:54 am

gtalum wrote:
Lindaloo wrote:I would like to see federal regulations on the insurance industry.


More regulation always ends up with less supply and/or higher prices. Something to keep in mind.


I understand what you are saying, but something needs to happen. More regulation would mean a watchful eye. They are not watched by anyone right now. They send their demands to the commissioners and then if they do not get what they want, they threaten to pull out of the state. Isn't that some kind of blackmail or something? If all states would have the "self insured" thinking and assign risk for the state wind pool I believe we would come out better. That way, they can charge premiums based on claims and give breaks to those who have a good record. Then the insurance companies would be forced to either reduce their rates or just go out of business. The market would open up and be more competitive which in turn would help the insured.

stormcrow, don't get me started on Allstate. lol.
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#42 Postby Alladin » Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:16 pm

Ixolib wrote:Wow... Lots of of heated but interesting discussion here. And throughout, I see the word "flood" all over the place.

I for one do not believe my home was "flooded" in Katrina. On the contrary, I am a firm believer that it was "surged" by wind-driven water. Therefore, my damages should have been covered. If not for the wind, the water would not have presented itself.
Let’s look at this another way. Suppose you lived about 10 miles north of a nuclear power plant and the power plant leaks radiation and the winds during the leak are from the south. Your house and all your possessions are dangerously irradiated. Since nuclear accidents are a standard exclusion in all insurance policies, do you think you could claim wind as the proximate cause?

Another example is let’s say a tornado damages your local waste water treatment plant and all the sewers back up. Your house is flooded with sewage. Since sewer back ups are a standard exclusion in all insurance policies, do you think you could claim wind as the proximate cause?

In both instances, if not for the wind your house would have not suffered any damage.
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#43 Postby Lindaloo » Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:24 pm

But you can buy extra insurance to cover nuclear losses. Do your homework.
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#44 Postby Alladin » Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:16 pm

I was referring to the standard HO-1 homeowner's policy without any riders.
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#45 Postby timNms » Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:10 pm

Whether or not the insurance companies agree, the surge was brought about by the wind. Had there been no wind, there would have been no surge. I think the problem here (and it has be stated numerous times already) lies in the way the policies are worded. Perhaps the insurance companies would be wise to put in bold "Excluding any damage caused by water whether it was wind driven or not"...you know, something like that so the average joe like me can understand it :)
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#46 Postby MSRobi911 » Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:09 pm

Wow, staying away a couple a days and miss a whole new thread debating wind/water............rofl!!!!!!

I've given up on wayoutfront, he just isn't going to understand, doesn't want too, and never will. Linda I don't want to work for an insurance company and become as callused as this person.

I haven't read if he replied to my most recent post in the other thread about why the same company with the same agent pays the homeowners directly next to me that were left with a slab and paid the homeowners on the other side of me that was up 10 feet and still had major damage and the house had to be destroyed and then TOTALLY DENIED my claim. I will go check in a minute after I post this. :)

But to all of you, Dickie didn't take these cases on as pro bono..I called, the standard 40% if they win. I had offers from area attorneys to take my case as pro bono but I don't think that is right. There is a lot of work involved and costs involved and I believe they should be compensated for the job they do just as everyone else is paid for the work they do and NO I don't work for attorneys, I work for physicians who don't like attorneys so that is not the reason for this reply. My attorney will charge me the standard fee of 40% if I win, but guess what....I'll have 60% of something I wouldn't have had if he hadn't done the work to get it for me.

After you pay a company 2400.00 a year and 1400.00 a year respectively for homeowners with riders attached for HURRICANE DAMAGE and National Flood Insurance you expect to be compensated in full if your total home is gone down to a slab. Yes my flood insurance paid, I know I was probably flooded from storm surge, as I was flooded with Hurricane Georges back in 96 (or was it 98? my brain is too old) from the storm surge which my policy does not have those words in it, and again, sorry but Mississippi Law has to be WORD SPECIFIC. So I am not fighting that. But I still had my 2,000 square foot Brick home left, it was just wet! After Katrina, I had NOTHING left and could fine NO part of my house or the things that were inside it save a few odds and ends, not to mention the 24 X 24 work shop my husband had that was sitting at the back of our property.

If all of Katrina's damage was caused by storm surge why is it that the Wind Pool Insurance paid off everybody on the Beach Front???? These people had 2 and 3 story homes on top of pilings (some steel) and they were totally gone. So if there was not enough wind to do this damage, why did the Wind Pool Insurance Company pay off??????????????

A bunch of questions to ponder.

Mary
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#47 Postby Alladin » Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

timNms wrote: I think the problem here (and it has be stated numerous times already) lies in the way the policies are worded. Perhaps the insurance companies would be wise to put in bold "Excluding any damage caused by water whether it was wind driven or not"...you know, something like that so the average joe like me can understand it :)
That’s a good point and I imagine that some policy exclusion language will be changed and deductibles will increase and the coverage will diminish. That’s exactly what happened in Florida after all of our hurricanes in 2004 and 2005. We went through much the same thing in Florida with the legal challenges against the insurance companies as well.

As I am sure you know, most of the counties in Florida are coastal (35 out of 67). The hurricanes we had during 2004 and 2005 caused extensive damage to coastal areas in south, central, north and northwest Florida. Some homeowners sued their insurance carriers based upon the same tactics and legal principles that are currently being used in the Mississippi cases. In the Florida cases the courts ruled (both state and federal) that the flood exclusions were enforceable by the insurance companies. Basically, if storm surge damaged your house then your wind damage was considered negligible.

The real significance of the Florida cases is that 15 of the 20 Florida judicial districts got involved in the cases because there are only 2 judicial districts in the entire state that don’t include coastal areas. The same thing was true on the federal level. All 3 federal judicial districts (southern, middle and northern) heard hurricane cases. Both in the state and federal courts the decisions were the same and they ruled in favor of the insurance companies.

As a practical matter, I just don’t see any of the cases in Mississippi, Louisiana or Alabama producing any different result. There are, of course, some Florida cases that are currently on appeal. I don’t think anyone expects any of these cases to change the wind vs. water scenario sought by the plaintives.

I think we can only look forward to higher insurance premiums, higher deductibles and reduced coverage.
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#48 Postby stormcrow » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:23 pm

Just a thought. If the tortmeister does win (and convinces the courts to ignore law) there will be no insurance available on the coast. Because the insurers and NFIP and a clear understanding as to who was underwriting what coverage, they didn't allow enough premium for the amounts that whould be awarded. Then the government would have to step in and set up either a wind pool or an NFIP like wind coverage. From an adjusters viewpoint, I would perfer everyone had every coverage.
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#49 Postby Ixolib » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:27 pm

Alladin wrote:
Ixolib wrote:Wow... Lots of of heated but interesting discussion here. And throughout, I see the word "flood" all over the place.

I for one do not believe my home was "flooded" in Katrina. On the contrary, I am a firm believer that it was "surged" by wind-driven water. Therefore, my damages should have been covered. If not for the wind, the water would not have presented itself.
Let’s look at this another way. Suppose you lived about 10 miles north of a nuclear power plant and the power plant leaks radiation and the winds during the leak are from the south. Your house and all your possessions are dangerously irradiated. Since nuclear accidents are a standard exclusion in all insurance policies, do you think you could claim wind as the proximate cause?

Another example is let’s say a tornado damages your local waste water treatment plant and all the sewers back up. Your house is flooded with sewage. Since sewer back ups are a standard exclusion in all insurance policies, do you think you could claim wind as the proximate cause?

In both instances, if not for the wind your house would have not suffered any damage.


Well, in the nuke scenario, I'd say who cares, most of us would be dead anyway so there'd be no one to make the claim. In the tornado scenario, I'd say that's a pretty extreme example to use for this debate.

But using the hurricane scenario, EVERY bit of the damage - be it wind or water - was a direct, total, and complete consequence of the storm. No collateral discussion there. Absolutely, the surge that entered my home was driven by the winds of a hurricane. And as I've said countless times before, if the water that entered my home had been wind-driven "rain", State Farm WOULD have covered the damages.
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#50 Postby Lindaloo » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:39 pm

stormcrow wrote:Just a thought. If the tortmeister does win (and convinces the courts to ignore law) there will be no insurance available on the coast. Because the insurers and NFIP and a clear understanding as to who was underwriting what coverage, they didn't allow enough premium for the amounts that whould be awarded. Then the government would have to step in and set up either a wind pool or an NFIP like wind coverage. From an adjusters viewpoint, I would perfer everyone had every coverage.


The local newspaper here actually explained everything and probably the best explanation I have heard or read about this situation in a long time.
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#51 Postby MSRobi911 » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:39 pm

Linda

I read that article and was very pleased how Joe and John explained things. Harvey had already called us and told us don't worry about it, that our case was totally different than his but some of the highlights of his case were in our favor. He was really not happy that the insurance companies were tooting their horns that they won, they won............they didn't really. He said he really wanted to call the press and present the facts about our home and tell them the Fat Lady hasn't Sung YET!

Mary
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#52 Postby Alladin » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:58 pm

stormcrow wrote:Just a thought. If the tortmeister does win (and convinces the courts to ignore law) there will be no insurance available on the coast. Because the insurers and NFIP and a clear understanding as to who was underwriting what coverage, they didn't allow enough premium for the amounts that whould be awarded. Then the government would have to step in and set up either a wind pool or an NFIP like wind coverage. From an adjusters viewpoint, I would perfer everyone had every coverage.
Actually, it would create an insurance disaster. Look at what has happened in Florida. After hurricane Andrew hit south Florida in 1992, most private property insurance companies decided to pull out of the Florida market. This left many Floridians without insurance. The Florida legislature created a state-run insurance company to fill the gap and offer insurance to Floridians until the private insurance companies would rebound and start selling insurance again in Florida.

The private companies never came back. More and more private companies cancelled policies to limit their liability exposure. In 2002, Citizens Property Insurance Corp. became the successor to the state’s insurance company. It is now the largest property insurer in Florida. This company was created to salvage the homeowner’s insurance market in Florida. In reality, it is now the insurer of last resort!

More and more private companies are canceling policies in Florida. Few private companies are writing new property insurance policies. Without Citizens, most Floridians would not have any property insurance. Another big problem is that Citizens sells policies to people who build their houses in high risk areas along the beachfront!

Citizens will insure any value property in any and all high risk areas. With the hurricanes Florida suffered in 2004 and 2005, Citizens couldn’t cover the losses they incurred. So now, everyone with private homeowners insurance in Florida is required to pay a surcharge with their annual insurance premium to bail out Citizens. My Citizens surcharge was about $150.00 this year. I and every other private policy holder in this state will pay this surcharge until at least 2009!

The folks in Mississippi better hope their government stays out of the insurance mess.

Ixolib wrote:Absolutely, the surge that entered my home was driven by the winds of a hurricane. And as I've said countless times before, if the water that entered my home had been wind-driven "rain", State Farm WOULD have covered the damages.
You’re absolutely correct. Back in the 1970’s I first moved to Florida from the mountains in North Carolina (Asheville). I didn’t know very much about Florida but I had many friends that had lived there for years.

My wife, family and I rented a condo so we could get the lay of the land before we bought a house. As we were looking for a house our friends provided us with some basic guidelines to help us with our purchase and to do all the things a new resident must accomplish. Everyone with whom we spoke had the same advice concerning insurance. They all advised us to stay away from the water.

They pointed out that if flood water from a river, canal, lake, pond, sewer line or the ocean entered our house, the insurance company would not cover the loss. Only wind driven rain was covered according to them. I followed their advice and it turned out they were right. That was one of the first lessons I learned when I moved to Florida.
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#53 Postby Lindaloo » Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:13 am

In all your posts, you are always mentioning Mississippi. Why is that? You even specifically mentioned Pascagoula. Do you have a connection here? Because if I recall, Alabama, Louisiana and Texas were all hit by a hurricane.

Which is why there needs to be better regulations on the industry.
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#54 Postby Alladin » Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:59 pm

I am part of a public and private partnership working to help individuals and families recover and rebuild their houses in coastal Florida and Alabama. Our group includes government organizations, businesses, private citizens, non profit organizations, property insurance companies, medical companies, financial groups, charities, faith based communities, mortgage brokers, contractors, civic organizations, real estate firms and home builders. Not all victims of hurricanes have the same recovery problems. We attempt to meet the needs of victims for their long term recovery.

Katrina task force recovery members from Mississippi contacted us for some guidance and we are providing assistance. My specialty involves the correct ways to rebuild and fortify houses including site selection and putting down a good foundation. Our sub-group is also working with existing homeowners to help them with techniques to strengthen their houses to resist high winds.

The main impetus for our organization was that after Ivan we discovered a lot of improperly built houses. Further we discovered a lot of improper rebuilding practices. We discovered slab foundations that had no footings, no vapor barriers, no anchor bolts, no insulation, improperly cured concrete, cold joints and improper backfill, top fill, gravel and sand installation. We found pilings that were water jetted into the ground (rather than driven) and then held in place with concrete. All of these practices are recipes for disaster.

A good foundation requires more than just digging a hole in the ground and pouring some concrete in the hole, yet that is just the way we found many foundations to have been built. Also it didn’t really matter if the houses were in poor areas or wealthy areas of the community. There were many bad foundations in both types of areas.
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#55 Postby wayoutfront » Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:36 pm

MSRobi911 wrote:Wow, staying away a couple a days and miss a whole new thread debating wind/water............rofl!!!!!!

I've given up on wayoutfront, he just isn't going to understand, doesn't want too, and never will. Linda I don't want to work for an insurance company and become as callused as this person.

I haven't read if he replied to my most recent post in the other thread about why the same company with the same agent pays the homeowners directly next to me that were left with a slab and paid the homeowners on the other side of me that was up 10 feet and still had major damage and the house had to be destroyed and then TOTALLY DENIED my claim. I will go check in a minute after I post this. :)

But to all of you, Dickie didn't take these cases on as pro bono..I called, the standard 40% if they win. I had offers from area attorneys to take my case as pro bono but I don't think that is right. There is a lot of work involved and costs involved and I believe they should be compensated for the job they do just as everyone else is paid for the work they do and NO I don't work for attorneys, I work for physicians who don't like attorneys so that is not the reason for this reply. My attorney will charge me the standard fee of 40% if I win, but guess what....I'll have 60% of something I wouldn't have had if he hadn't done the work to get it for me.

After you pay a company 2400.00 a year and 1400.00 a year respectively for homeowners with riders attached for HURRICANE DAMAGE and National Flood Insurance you expect to be compensated in full if your total home is gone down to a slab. Yes my flood insurance paid, I know I was probably flooded from storm surge, as I was flooded with Hurricane Georges back in 96 (or was it 98? my brain is too old) from the storm surge which my policy does not have those words in it, and again, sorry but Mississippi Law has to be WORD SPECIFIC. So I am not fighting that. But I still had my 2,000 square foot Brick home left, it was just wet! After Katrina, I had NOTHING left and could fine NO part of my house or the things that were inside it save a few odds and ends, not to mention the 24 X 24 work shop my husband had that was sitting at the back of our property.

If all of Katrina's damage was caused by storm surge why is it that the Wind Pool Insurance paid off everybody on the Beach Front???? These people had 2 and 3 story homes on top of pilings (some steel) and they were totally gone. So if there was not enough wind to do this damage, why did the Wind Pool Insurance Company pay off??????????????

A bunch of questions to ponder.

Mary


If you care to read Here is a page with the links to the Judges Actual decision. Ithink I undestanand clearly and many here don't.



http://www.hurricanelawblog.com/archive ... trina.html[/url]

(Edited by GD to remove irrelevant off-topic information)
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#56 Postby EverythingIsEverything » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:19 pm

I'm sure those who are going through the drama with the insurance companies have combed through their policies with a fine tooth comb now. Just curious, why wouldn't you read your insurance policies and be paying a premium each month to see what your actually paying for?
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