Bill - you're right of course. What has always saddend me is there was never a collective shock/apology/action taken when the abuse cases came to light. All I ever read about locally and nationwide was how was the CC handling the 'scandal'. How will the Church survive such a thing? I kept wanting to scream outloud - how do you think the victims have handled this abuse, all of these decades? I probably went to school with a few of them. Back then, Priests and Nuns were just below the Pope, who was just below God/Jesus/Christ! They could do no wrong. They did now even seem human. If they wanted to hit you with a ruler or paddle for misspelling a word, you held your hand out. If they told you to do 10 push ups in place, you did it. Sadly, I can see why so many children went willingly with abusive Priests and Nuns. Hand in hand.
This is what sickens me. It should have all been handled from the viewpoint of the child, now mostly adults. Let's rally around THEM and help them handle what was forcibly inflicted upon them. Arrest the offenders and try them. If they were lay people, they would have been tried.
Mary
Question about the Pope--I dont understand but want to...
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streetsoldier
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Mary,
One of the things that defined John Paul II's pontificate is that he emphasized CHILDREN...spoke forcefully and often about child slaves, child workers, child soldiers, and against any manner of child abuse.
Sadly, the Pope doesn't have the force of temporal law to address these matters himself, but he did articulate his unyielding displeasure to heads-of-state and within his Church body often...you saw how he dealt with "cover-up artists" when he discovered them.
It's up to the individual countries (or states within) to deal with abusers under law; but they have (or had) the full support of the Holy See.
One of the things that defined John Paul II's pontificate is that he emphasized CHILDREN...spoke forcefully and often about child slaves, child workers, child soldiers, and against any manner of child abuse.
Sadly, the Pope doesn't have the force of temporal law to address these matters himself, but he did articulate his unyielding displeasure to heads-of-state and within his Church body often...you saw how he dealt with "cover-up artists" when he discovered them.
It's up to the individual countries (or states within) to deal with abusers under law; but they have (or had) the full support of the Holy See.
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This is from 2002 - but still interesting none-the-less.
from the April 05, 2002 edition - http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html
Sex abuse spans spectrum of churches
By Mark Clayton | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.
These are findings from national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources (CMR), a tax and legal-advice publisher serving more than 75,000 congregations and 1,000 denominational agencies nationwide.
CMR's annual surveys of about 1,000 churches nationwide have asked about sexual abuse since 1993. They're a remarkable window on a problem that lurked largely in the shadows of public awareness until the Catholic scandals arose.
The surveys suggest that over the past decade, the pace of child-abuse allegations against American churches has averaged 70 a week. The surveys registered a slight downward trend in reported abuse starting in 1997, possibly a result of the introduction of preventive measures by churches.
"I think the CMR numbers are striking, yet quite reasonable," says Anson Shupe, anIndiana University professor who's written books about church abuse. "To me it says Protestants are less reluctant to come forward because they don't put their clergy on as high a pedestal as Catholics do with their priests."
At least 70 incidents a week
Dr. Shupe suggests the 70 allegations-per-week figure actually could be higher, because underreporting is common. He discovered this in 1998 while going door to door in Dallas-Ft. Worth communities where he asked 1,607 families if they'd experienced abuse from those within their church. Nearly 4 percent said they had been victims of sexual abuse by clergy. Child sexual abuse was part of that, but not broken out, he says.
James Cobble, executive director of CMR, who oversees the survey, says the data show that child sex-abuse happens broadly across all denominations– and that clergy aren't the major offenders.
"The Catholics have gotten all the attention from the media, but this problem is even greater with the Protestant churches simply because of their far larger numbers," he says.
Of the 350,000 churches in the US, 19,500 – 5 percent – are Roman Catholic. Catholic churches represent a slightly smaller minority of churches in the CMR surveys which aren't scientifically random, but "representative" demographic samples of churches, Dr. Cobble explains.
Since 1993, on average about 1 percent of the surveyed churches reported abuse allegations annually. That means on average, about 3,500 allegations annually, or nearly 70 per among the predominantly Protestant group, Cobble says.
The CMR findings also reveal:
• Most church child-sexual-abuse cases involve a single victim.
• Law suits or out-of-court settlements were a result in 21 percent of the allegations reported in the 2000 survey.
• Volunteers are more likely than clergy or paid staff to be abusers. Perhaps more startling, children at churches are accused of sexual abuse as often as are clergy and staff. In 1999, for example, 42 percent of alleged child abusers were volunteers – about 25 percent were paid staff members (including clergy) and 25 percent were other children.
Still, it is the reduction of reported allegations over nine years that seems to indicate that some churches are learning how to slow abuse allegations with tough new prevention measures, say insurance company officials and church officials themselves.
The peak year for allegations was 1994, with 3 percent of churches reporting an allegation of sexual misconduct compared with just 0.1 percent in 2000. But 2001 data, indicates a swing back to the 1 percent level, still significantly less than the 1993 figures, Cobble says.
Child sexual-abuse insurance claims have slowed, too, industry sources say.
Hugh White, vice president of marketing for Brotherhood Mutual Insurance, in Ft. Wayne, Ind., suggests that the amount of abuse reported in the CMR 2001 data is reasonable though "at the higher end" of the scale.
Mr. White's company insures 30,000 churches – about 0.2 percent to 0.3 percent of which annually report an "incident" of child sexual abuse. But he says that his churches are more highly educated on child abuse prevention procedures than most, which may account for a lower rate of reported abuse than the CMR surveys.
What all the data show is a settling that followed "a large spike" in the frequency and severity of church sexual misconduct claims from the mid-1980s, White says.
"Church insurance carriers implemented educational programs and policies that have helped decrease and then stabilize the trend," agrees Jan Beckstrom, chief operating officer for the church insurer GuideOne Insurance in West Des Moines, Iowa.
CMR surveys also show many smaller churches have lagged in starting such programs, while larger churches with more resources and management controls have led the way. And for good reason: They have more to lose, and a larger abuse problem.
"I don't know of a church that isn't doing this," says Simeon May, of the Richardson, Tex.-based National Association of Church Business Administration, which gives training for large churches with administrators.
At Grace Community Church in Tempe, Ariz., the executive pastor, Gary Maitha, says his church has adopted a tougher sort of love since 2000. That's when criminal background checks, finger printing, detailed questionnaires, and careful policies – such as never having children and adults "one-on-one" – kicked into gear. It's a necessity with 700 to 800 children showing up for Sunday School and many more for other church activities during the week, he says.
"We have fingerprinting and a criminal background check for anyone over age 18 that works with children," says the Rev. Maitha. "If it comes back with a blemish, they're not working with kids. That's all there is to it."
Debby DeBernardi, director of Grace Community's children's ministry, says church policies require, for instance, that adults go in pairs when supervising bathroom breaks for children and that they check to ensure no adults are in the bathrooms, before children enter.
Fingerprints for Sunday school
Men who've been screened and fingerprinted may work in the nursery. But only female staff members – not volunteers – may change diapers. Only adults wearing an identity badge that indicates they've been cleared may work with children – and photo IDs are coming soon. Some long-time volunteers, offended by all the new policies, have bowed out of children's activities.
But the new procedures have already proven their worth, Ms. DeBernardi says. "We did have someone already apply who had a police file and had been accused of child molestation. Because of our new procedures, we caught it.... Sometimes you have to bring people in and say, 'Look, you're welcome to come to the church, we love you. But you may not minister in the children's area.' "
That sort of toughness is swiftly becoming a prerequisite for insurance coverage, and to protect against lawsuits and false allegations, which can be nearly as demoralizing to a church organization.
The problem, Cobble says, is that churches are the perfect environment for sexual predators, because they have large numbers of children's' programs, a shortage of workers to lead them, and a culture of trust that is the essence of the organization.
Churches have been active since the early 1990s in addressing the problem, Cobble reports. More than 100,000 copies of a book he co-authored, "Reducing the risk of Child Sexual Abuse in Your Church" were sold.
Since January, when Roman Catholic dioceses nationwide began drawing headlines over pedophile priests, some church organizations have focused anew on revamping sexual abuse policies.
The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, for instance, is reportedly drafting a new sexual- abuse policy.
Ralph Colas, of the American Council of Christian Churches, a Bethlehem, Penn. organization representing fundamentalist denominations, reports fresh activity. "I've helped several churches this last week draw up some guideline policies," he says. "I've encouraged churches to secure legal advice, to make sure they are meeting the legal mandatory reporting requirements."
Fear of lawsuits sparked new rules
But the shift to "trust but verify" – impelled to a degree by current headlines – has been ongoing since a conference in Chicago in November 1992 when more than 100 denominational leaders met for the first time to discuss how to deal with child sex abuse. About that time, insurance companies were dropping coverage of churches without screening policies.
"What drove leaders to begin to respond to this issue was not the welfare of children," Cobble says. "It was fear of large, costly lawsuits."
Full HTML version of this story which may include photos, graphics, and related links
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from the April 05, 2002 edition - http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html
Sex abuse spans spectrum of churches
By Mark Clayton | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.
These are findings from national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources (CMR), a tax and legal-advice publisher serving more than 75,000 congregations and 1,000 denominational agencies nationwide.
CMR's annual surveys of about 1,000 churches nationwide have asked about sexual abuse since 1993. They're a remarkable window on a problem that lurked largely in the shadows of public awareness until the Catholic scandals arose.
The surveys suggest that over the past decade, the pace of child-abuse allegations against American churches has averaged 70 a week. The surveys registered a slight downward trend in reported abuse starting in 1997, possibly a result of the introduction of preventive measures by churches.
"I think the CMR numbers are striking, yet quite reasonable," says Anson Shupe, anIndiana University professor who's written books about church abuse. "To me it says Protestants are less reluctant to come forward because they don't put their clergy on as high a pedestal as Catholics do with their priests."
At least 70 incidents a week
Dr. Shupe suggests the 70 allegations-per-week figure actually could be higher, because underreporting is common. He discovered this in 1998 while going door to door in Dallas-Ft. Worth communities where he asked 1,607 families if they'd experienced abuse from those within their church. Nearly 4 percent said they had been victims of sexual abuse by clergy. Child sexual abuse was part of that, but not broken out, he says.
James Cobble, executive director of CMR, who oversees the survey, says the data show that child sex-abuse happens broadly across all denominations– and that clergy aren't the major offenders.
"The Catholics have gotten all the attention from the media, but this problem is even greater with the Protestant churches simply because of their far larger numbers," he says.
Of the 350,000 churches in the US, 19,500 – 5 percent – are Roman Catholic. Catholic churches represent a slightly smaller minority of churches in the CMR surveys which aren't scientifically random, but "representative" demographic samples of churches, Dr. Cobble explains.
Since 1993, on average about 1 percent of the surveyed churches reported abuse allegations annually. That means on average, about 3,500 allegations annually, or nearly 70 per among the predominantly Protestant group, Cobble says.
The CMR findings also reveal:
• Most church child-sexual-abuse cases involve a single victim.
• Law suits or out-of-court settlements were a result in 21 percent of the allegations reported in the 2000 survey.
• Volunteers are more likely than clergy or paid staff to be abusers. Perhaps more startling, children at churches are accused of sexual abuse as often as are clergy and staff. In 1999, for example, 42 percent of alleged child abusers were volunteers – about 25 percent were paid staff members (including clergy) and 25 percent were other children.
Still, it is the reduction of reported allegations over nine years that seems to indicate that some churches are learning how to slow abuse allegations with tough new prevention measures, say insurance company officials and church officials themselves.
The peak year for allegations was 1994, with 3 percent of churches reporting an allegation of sexual misconduct compared with just 0.1 percent in 2000. But 2001 data, indicates a swing back to the 1 percent level, still significantly less than the 1993 figures, Cobble says.
Child sexual-abuse insurance claims have slowed, too, industry sources say.
Hugh White, vice president of marketing for Brotherhood Mutual Insurance, in Ft. Wayne, Ind., suggests that the amount of abuse reported in the CMR 2001 data is reasonable though "at the higher end" of the scale.
Mr. White's company insures 30,000 churches – about 0.2 percent to 0.3 percent of which annually report an "incident" of child sexual abuse. But he says that his churches are more highly educated on child abuse prevention procedures than most, which may account for a lower rate of reported abuse than the CMR surveys.
What all the data show is a settling that followed "a large spike" in the frequency and severity of church sexual misconduct claims from the mid-1980s, White says.
"Church insurance carriers implemented educational programs and policies that have helped decrease and then stabilize the trend," agrees Jan Beckstrom, chief operating officer for the church insurer GuideOne Insurance in West Des Moines, Iowa.
CMR surveys also show many smaller churches have lagged in starting such programs, while larger churches with more resources and management controls have led the way. And for good reason: They have more to lose, and a larger abuse problem.
"I don't know of a church that isn't doing this," says Simeon May, of the Richardson, Tex.-based National Association of Church Business Administration, which gives training for large churches with administrators.
At Grace Community Church in Tempe, Ariz., the executive pastor, Gary Maitha, says his church has adopted a tougher sort of love since 2000. That's when criminal background checks, finger printing, detailed questionnaires, and careful policies – such as never having children and adults "one-on-one" – kicked into gear. It's a necessity with 700 to 800 children showing up for Sunday School and many more for other church activities during the week, he says.
"We have fingerprinting and a criminal background check for anyone over age 18 that works with children," says the Rev. Maitha. "If it comes back with a blemish, they're not working with kids. That's all there is to it."
Debby DeBernardi, director of Grace Community's children's ministry, says church policies require, for instance, that adults go in pairs when supervising bathroom breaks for children and that they check to ensure no adults are in the bathrooms, before children enter.
Fingerprints for Sunday school
Men who've been screened and fingerprinted may work in the nursery. But only female staff members – not volunteers – may change diapers. Only adults wearing an identity badge that indicates they've been cleared may work with children – and photo IDs are coming soon. Some long-time volunteers, offended by all the new policies, have bowed out of children's activities.
But the new procedures have already proven their worth, Ms. DeBernardi says. "We did have someone already apply who had a police file and had been accused of child molestation. Because of our new procedures, we caught it.... Sometimes you have to bring people in and say, 'Look, you're welcome to come to the church, we love you. But you may not minister in the children's area.' "
That sort of toughness is swiftly becoming a prerequisite for insurance coverage, and to protect against lawsuits and false allegations, which can be nearly as demoralizing to a church organization.
The problem, Cobble says, is that churches are the perfect environment for sexual predators, because they have large numbers of children's' programs, a shortage of workers to lead them, and a culture of trust that is the essence of the organization.
Churches have been active since the early 1990s in addressing the problem, Cobble reports. More than 100,000 copies of a book he co-authored, "Reducing the risk of Child Sexual Abuse in Your Church" were sold.
Since January, when Roman Catholic dioceses nationwide began drawing headlines over pedophile priests, some church organizations have focused anew on revamping sexual abuse policies.
The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, for instance, is reportedly drafting a new sexual- abuse policy.
Ralph Colas, of the American Council of Christian Churches, a Bethlehem, Penn. organization representing fundamentalist denominations, reports fresh activity. "I've helped several churches this last week draw up some guideline policies," he says. "I've encouraged churches to secure legal advice, to make sure they are meeting the legal mandatory reporting requirements."
Fear of lawsuits sparked new rules
But the shift to "trust but verify" – impelled to a degree by current headlines – has been ongoing since a conference in Chicago in November 1992 when more than 100 denominational leaders met for the first time to discuss how to deal with child sex abuse. About that time, insurance companies were dropping coverage of churches without screening policies.
"What drove leaders to begin to respond to this issue was not the welfare of children," Cobble says. "It was fear of large, costly lawsuits."
Full HTML version of this story which may include photos, graphics, and related links
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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streetsoldier
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Mary,
I suffered verbal and emotional abuse at the hands of my 1st grade teacher, a Sister of the Most Precious Blood; she seemed to single me out for attention because I always finished my work ahead of the others, sang "harmony" (second part) when everyone else was having trouble hitting the notes, etc.
Fortunately, her behavior was brought to the attention of our Monsignor (as the church was still under Jesuit tutelage); but, when confronted by him, the Sister denied everything...despite the statements of all of the other kids, and at least one of the nuns!
She was eventually sent to her Motherhouse, and from there to a psychiatric hospital run by the Archdiocese for extended care.
I suffered verbal and emotional abuse at the hands of my 1st grade teacher, a Sister of the Most Precious Blood; she seemed to single me out for attention because I always finished my work ahead of the others, sang "harmony" (second part) when everyone else was having trouble hitting the notes, etc.
Fortunately, her behavior was brought to the attention of our Monsignor (as the church was still under Jesuit tutelage); but, when confronted by him, the Sister denied everything...despite the statements of all of the other kids, and at least one of the nuns!
She was eventually sent to her Motherhouse, and from there to a psychiatric hospital run by the Archdiocese for extended care.
Last edited by streetsoldier on Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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My first grade teacher (Catholic school) too Bill. Her name was Mrs. Wright and she thought she was going to hit my knuckles with a ruler in front of the entire class because I finished my work before anyone else. I ran to the office and she was running right behind me. Sister Aloysius came out of her office and protected me and then called my Mother. They actually did not do anything to this abusive teacher until she slammed a kid's head into the concrete wall three years later. She was not a nun and not even a Catholic!!
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StormChasr
That was the problem with the Baltimore Catechism, which was extremely austere. I remember that it always stressed Penitence, but was more than a little bit short on the reconcilliation portion. So, it helped to foster guilt, and make the idea of confession/repentance more of an ordeal, as opposed to what it was supposed to be--a cleansing of sin.
That's why I like the Episcopal Church so much more now---much less guilt-tripping, and an emphasis on forgiveness, as opposed to what a sinner one has been.
That's why I like the Episcopal Church so much more now---much less guilt-tripping, and an emphasis on forgiveness, as opposed to what a sinner one has been.
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streetsoldier
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That's one thing that's most noticeable about the difference between Catholic and Protestant traditions...the crosses.
The Catholic cross, or crucifix, has a body representing Jesus hanging on it, thus emphasizing His suffering for man's sins (note the cross on top of Pope John Paul II's crozier? It was bent radically, under the crushing weight of the sins Christ was taking unto Himself); the Protestant ones are "empty", celebrating joyously Christ's resurrection and power even over death.
Frankly, we of both traditions have much to share with each other; the passing of the Pope, as in this thread, is serving as a catalyst for meaningful dialogue. And, that's good...for all of us!
The Catholic cross, or crucifix, has a body representing Jesus hanging on it, thus emphasizing His suffering for man's sins (note the cross on top of Pope John Paul II's crozier? It was bent radically, under the crushing weight of the sins Christ was taking unto Himself); the Protestant ones are "empty", celebrating joyously Christ's resurrection and power even over death.
Frankly, we of both traditions have much to share with each other; the passing of the Pope, as in this thread, is serving as a catalyst for meaningful dialogue. And, that's good...for all of us!
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southerngale
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Rainband wrote:With all due respect. The pope can and has blessed people. Catholics have different beliefs than Christians do. Not wrong, just different.southerngale wrote:There are things I don't understand about the Catholic religion too. I may be wrong but I think that Catholics believe the Pope can bless them. Although he is a great man of God, a well respected leader, and a very moral man, he is just a man and not God so he can't actually bless anyone. Only our Holy Father, God, can.
Like I said, I could be wrong about what Catholics believe. If so, disregard my comments. lol
Maybe we're saying the same thing but in a different way. I understand that the Pope can ask God to bless someone, but as Christians, so can my pastor, my Mom, or you or I for that matter. The Bible states that when Jesus came, He became our intercessor to God. We need no other go-between and through Him, we go straight to the Father. I have a tremendous respect for the Pope as a spiritual leader but I do not equate him with God or attribute to him the powers of God.
I can't find anything in the Bible that calls for the elevation of one man over another. In fact, it's just the opposite. We all have equal access to Jesus and the fruits of the Spirit. Sadly, most people, including myself, fall way short in this area of our lives.
Again, I want to emphasize that this is not a slam on the Pope. I have a lot of respect for him, but it's the same kind of respect I have for example, Billy Graham or Charles Stanley. All are tremendous men of God, great spiritual leaders and have devoted their entire lives to proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ.
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kevin
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Rainband
Kelly we were saying the same thingsoutherngale wrote:Rainband wrote:With all due respect. The pope can and has blessed people. Catholics have different beliefs than Christians do. Not wrong, just different.southerngale wrote:There are things I don't understand about the Catholic religion too. I may be wrong but I think that Catholics believe the Pope can bless them. Although he is a great man of God, a well respected leader, and a very moral man, he is just a man and not God so he can't actually bless anyone. Only our Holy Father, God, can.
Like I said, I could be wrong about what Catholics believe. If so, disregard my comments. lol
Maybe we're saying the same thing but in a different way. I understand that the Pope can ask God to bless someone, but as Christians, so can my pastor, my Mom, or you or I for that matter. The Bible states that when Jesus came, He became our intercessor to God. We need no other go-between and through Him, we go straight to the Father. I have a tremendous respect for the Pope as a spiritual leader but I do not equate him with God or attribute to him the powers of God.
I can't find anything in the Bible that calls for the elevation of one man over another. In fact, it's just the opposite. We all have equal access to Jesus and the fruits of the Spirit. Sadly, most people, including myself, fall way short in this area of our lives.
Again, I want to emphasize that this is not a slam on the Pope. I have a lot of respect for him, but it's the same kind of respect I have for example, Billy Graham or Charles Stanley. All are tremendous men of God, great spiritual leaders and have devoted their entire lives to proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ.
OT I love youur avatar. I can't wait till tonight. I think the Target is AF1
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Stephanie
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streetsoldier wrote:That's one thing that's most noticeable about the difference between Catholic and Protestant traditions...the crosses.
The Catholic cross, or crucifix, has a body representing Jesus hanging on it, thus emphasizing His suffering for man's sins (note the cross on top of Pope John Paul II's crozier? It was bent radically, under the crushing weight of the sins Christ was taking unto Himself); the Protestant ones are "empty", celebrating joyously Christ's resurrection and power even over death.
Frankly, we of both traditions have much to share with each other; the passing of the Pope, as in this thread, is serving as a catalyst for meaningful dialogue. And, that's good...for all of us!
ABSOLUTELY!
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CajunMama
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Lindaloo wrote:THE HOLY FATHER
The Roman Pontiff, as the successor of Peter, is the perpetual and visible principle and foundation of unity of both the bishops and of the faithful.
LUMEN GENTIUM, 23
Cajun had it right until she edited her post. He is a servant of God and can Bless in the name of the Lord.
I was quoting Monsignor Richard Mouton of St. Pius X Church....which is what I added to my post when I edited it.
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CajunMama
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The Saints "intercede" for you. And by personal experience they do intercede. I have lost or misplaced many things....St. Anthony always finds them for me. I could have looked and looked for something...and somehow the item shows up in a place i have previously looked. The only thing he hasn't found for me is my grandmothers ring. 
If it wasn't for Mary, Jesus would not have been born into the flesh. She is the mother of Jesus. She is the mother of God.
If it wasn't for Mary, Jesus would not have been born into the flesh. She is the mother of Jesus. She is the mother of God.
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ColdFront77
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streetsoldier
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Dennis,
Let's discuss saints...
If one believes in eternal life, and believes that those who have gone before are in His Kingdom...does it not stand to reason that, not only are they in the Presence of Truth, but that they are also cognizant of us who are still on earth?
If so, then it can be reasonable to believe that the "good and faithful servants" can, not only serve us as inspiration; but that they, constantly praising God, are receptive to our prayers and needs...and can call upon Him in our behalf?
In Catholic belief, Mary, His Mother, being with Him, may still have some intercessory influence with her Son (as she did in Cana, when she asked Him to see that the wedding's steward had enough wine).
"Saints" are people who, by their life and works, exemplify devotion to Him while yet alive here; the Catholic Church recognizes their walk with Him through an extensive investigation. Once having been found to have had His Light while alive, they are first "beatified" (from which the faithful may call them "Blessed"), then...in the fullness of time, the Holy See "canonizes" them (entering their names into the Church Calendar with a fixed day of remembrance), after which time they are called "Saint (insert name here)". These Saints are people who the Church recognizes as being in Heaven, without doubt. And, like Mary, are cognizant of us here...and, in the Catholic faith, we may pray to Our Lord for guidance, aid, etc., and to the Saints for intercession with Him on our behalf.
It's a tortuous teaching, Dennis; I wish I had a Jesuit here to explain it to your satisfaction.
Let's discuss saints...
If one believes in eternal life, and believes that those who have gone before are in His Kingdom...does it not stand to reason that, not only are they in the Presence of Truth, but that they are also cognizant of us who are still on earth?
If so, then it can be reasonable to believe that the "good and faithful servants" can, not only serve us as inspiration; but that they, constantly praising God, are receptive to our prayers and needs...and can call upon Him in our behalf?
In Catholic belief, Mary, His Mother, being with Him, may still have some intercessory influence with her Son (as she did in Cana, when she asked Him to see that the wedding's steward had enough wine).
"Saints" are people who, by their life and works, exemplify devotion to Him while yet alive here; the Catholic Church recognizes their walk with Him through an extensive investigation. Once having been found to have had His Light while alive, they are first "beatified" (from which the faithful may call them "Blessed"), then...in the fullness of time, the Holy See "canonizes" them (entering their names into the Church Calendar with a fixed day of remembrance), after which time they are called "Saint (insert name here)". These Saints are people who the Church recognizes as being in Heaven, without doubt. And, like Mary, are cognizant of us here...and, in the Catholic faith, we may pray to Our Lord for guidance, aid, etc., and to the Saints for intercession with Him on our behalf.
It's a tortuous teaching, Dennis; I wish I had a Jesuit here to explain it to your satisfaction.
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