STORM2K

I cannot BELIEVE this, a 8 year old KILLS his own father...WTF is WRONG with young kids nowadays??? I mean Gesus Christ....we all at some point in time got pissed off with our parents but NEVER, EVER dreamed of KILLING them!! St. Johns is a sleepy little Mormon community 35 miles east of me.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?news ... 5965&rfi=6

Had a couple of cases similar to that in Cochise County. One kid was 12 and the other 16. The latter kid is serving major hard time now.

Steve

We had a case where we had 10 year old boy killed his own father, Dr Rick Lohstroh, while trying to drive to work in his car. He was a doctor working for UTMB and his son is serving hard times.

http://www.click2houston.com/news/99814 ... u&psp=news

Well, you never know ... sometimes the story is just as straightforward as it seems at first, sometimes there's more to it.

I'm not going to jump to any conclusions.

Dennis, I presume you have access to information that definitely has concluded the boy is the killer? I know things like this do happen as per the post about the 10 year old here in Houston. It just seems like an awfully quick solve for something that would seem to be quite complicated to me.

vbhoutex wrote:Dennis, I presume you have access to information that definitely has concluded the boy is the killer? I know things like this do happen as per the post about the 10 year old here in Houston. It just seems like an awfully quick solve for something that would seem to be quite complicated to me.

David, yes, there is proof the boy did it....he confessed!

MSNBC, FOX and CBS has been running stories on this murder all weekend long, in fact, MSNBC is having a special tonight, Sunday 9 November on the family etc.

http://www.azcentral.com

Priest says slain dad had taught 8-year-old boy to use guns
Nov. 9, 2008 12:00 AM
Associated Press
ST. JOHNS - A Roman Catholic priest who presided over the wedding of a man who police say was fatally shot by his 8-year-old son said Saturday that the man and his wife had consulted him about whether the boy should have a gun.

The Very Rev. John Paul Sauter said the father wanted his son to learn how to hunt, while his new bride had suggested the boy have a BB gun.

Police say the boy used a .22-caliber rifle on Wednesday to kill his father and another man.
Sauter said that the father was an avid hunter and that he taught his son how to use the rifle to kill prairie dogs.

"He wanted to make sure the kid wasn't afraid of guns, knew how to handle it," Sauter said. "He was just too young. ... That child, I don't think he knows what he did, and it was brutal."

Police are looking into whether the boy had been abused. He faces two counts of premeditated murder.

The Arizona Republic is not naming the victims to protect the identity of the boy.

Police Chief Roy Melnick said that the boy did not act on the spur of the moment, and that he planned and "methodically carried out the acts."

"I'm not accusing anybody of anything at this point," he said. "But we're certainly going to look at the abuse part of this. He's 8 years old. He just doesn't decide one day that he's going to shoot his father and shoot his father's friend for no reason. Something led up to this."

A family member who did not want to be identified because of the nature of the allegations said the boy wasn't abused.

"He was never abused by the family," she said. "If things are proven, that's another story."

She said the family was not doing well as they mourn the loss of a loved one.

"We're going crazy," she said. "It's hard to believe a little 8-year-old boy could do such a thing."

On Friday, a judge ordered a psychological evaluation of the boy.

The boy is being charged as a juvenile, but Melnick said police are pushing to have him tried as an adult.

"This is a severe double homicide, premeditated, and that's the right thing to do," he said. "We're going to use every avenue of the law that's available to us, but we're also looking at the human side."

Melnick said he thinks it's unlikely a judge would agree to charge the boy as an adult. If convicted as a minor, the boy could be sent to juvenile detention until he turns 18.

Melnick said police are also investigating whether there were any domestic-violence calls to the home in the past.

Melnick said officers arrived at the home within minutes of the shooting Wednesday in St. Johns, which has a population of about 4,000 and is 168 miles northeast of Phoenix. They found one victim just outside the front door and the other dead in an upstairs room.

The second victim had been renting a room at the house, prosecutors said. Both men were employees of a construction company working at a Salt River Project power plant near St. Johns.

The boy went to a neighbor's house and said he "believed that his father was dead," said Brad Carlyon of the Apache County Attorney's Office.

Melnick said police obtained a confession, but the boy's defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer, said police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights.

"They became very accusing early on in the interview," Brewer said. "Two officers with guns at their side, it's very scary for anybody, for sure an 8-year-old kid."

Prosecutors aren't sure where the case is headed, Carlyon said.

"There's a ton of factors to be considered and weighed, including the juvenile's age," he said. "The counterbalance against that, the acts that he apparently committed."

Carlyon said the boy had no record of complaints with Arizona Child Protective Services.

"He had no record of any kind, not even a disciplinary record at school," he said. "He has never been in trouble before."

FBI statistics show instances of children younger than 11 committing homicides are rare. According to recent FBI supplementary homicide reports, there were at least three such cases each year in 2003, 2004 and 2005; there were at least 15 in 2002. More recent statistics weren't available, nor were details of the cases.

Earlier this year, prosecutors in Cochise County filed first-degree murder charges against a 12-year-old boy accused of killing his mother.

Defense attorney Mike Piccarreta, who is not involved in the latest case, said each case has to be considered on its own merits, but it would be hard for him to comprehend that an 8-year-old has the mental capacity to understand the act of murder and its implications.

"If they actually prosecute the guy, it's a legal minefield," he said.

Wednesday's homicides were the first in at least four years in the community, where most people know one another, Melnick said. Before the recent murders, it had been 20 years since anyone had been killed there, he said.

The father had full custody of the child. The boy's biological mother had visited St. Johns last weekend from Mississippi, and she returned to Arizona after the shootings, Carlyon said.

Brewer said the boy "seems to be in good spirits.

"He's trying to be tough, but he's scared."

The Judge has ordered a psychiatric examination to see if the boy is competent enough to stand trial in Adult Court. The Cochise County case followed another in the same County involving an older child who has since been convicted of murder. Interestingly enough, these three cases have all taken place in small towns.

Steve

Aslkahuna wrote:The Judge has ordered a psychiatric examination to see if the boy is competent enough to stand trial in Adult Court. The Cochise County case followed another in the same County involving an older child who has since been convicted of murder. Interestingly enough, these three cases have all taken place in small towns.

Steve

That is interesting it is happening in small towns. We had a case like that in 2004. The boy did not have good relationship with his father.
http://www.click2houston.com/news/3688235/detail.html

azsnowman wrote:David, yes, there is proof the boy did it....he confessed!

Apparently his confession came without benefit of the presence of an attorney or any guardian, and clearly without the ability to understand any Miranda rights if they were ever even read to him. It will probably get thrown out.

Attempting to try an 8 year old as an adult is just stupid.

The 12 year old who killed his Mother in Douglas will be tried in Juvenile Court after the shrink and CPS had determined that he had been abused. The case where a boy was tried in adult court involved a 16 year old.

Steve

Ptarmigan wrote:

Aslkahuna wrote:The Judge has ordered a psychiatric examination to see if the boy is competent enough to stand trial in Adult Court. The Cochise County case followed another in the same County involving an older child who has since been convicted of murder. Interestingly enough, these three cases have all taken place in small towns.

Steve

That is interesting it is happening in small towns. We had a case like that in 2004. The boy did not have good relationship with his father.
http://www.click2houston.com/news/3688235/detail.html

IIRC, there was a custody dispute involved, and the mother is believed to have put the boy up to it. Probably believing the boy would get a much easier deal from the criminal justice system than she would.

gtalum wrote:

azsnowman wrote:David, yes, there is proof the boy did it....he confessed!

Apparently his confession came without benefit of the presence of an attorney or any guardian, and clearly without the ability to understand any Miranda rights if they were ever even read to him. It will probably get thrown out.

Attempting to try an 8 year old as an adult is just stupid.

He was either badly abused (and a man who was molesting his boy or allowing the molestation may not have kept the whole family informed) or the kid is badly disturbed.


I have no problem trying 15 year old as adults for adult crimes, but pre-teens, they belong in the juvenile justice/mental health system.

WELL, since this is posted in the paper, here it is and we are "ALL" wrong...wasn't ABUSE, wasn't VIDEO games, seems this kid was tourqed OFF because he was SPANKED for not doing something he was asked! Believe me, this happens MORE than NOT....I KNOW first HAND!! For what I am about to say, some will say I'm a terrible father, a jerk for what I have done BUT, here goes....I have all but disowned my daughter because of the SAME crap!! She was here 1.5 years ago on spring break, we (my wife, me and my daughter) got into a verbal disagreement, my freekin ex wife found out about it and the BIATCH attempted to file CHILD ABUSE charges against me and my wife with my Supervisor....of course, after a BRIEF investigation and interigation, my sup. blew it off in a matter of 15 minutes and nothing was done WELL DUH!!! WHat the hell is the MATTER with kids??? They think just because they don't like something the parent does that they have the RIGHT to call the law??? BULLCRAP...I've seen too many peoples lives RUINED because the SPOILED @zz BRATS can't handle it!!

ANYWAY...off my soap box and here's the REAL story!!

http://www.wmicentral.com

Boy, 8, accused of killing two
- Posted 11/11/2008, 6:00 a.m.
ST. JOHNS - Rocked by a double murder in their small close-knit community last Wednesday afternoon, the residents of St. Johns have only one question on their minds. Why would an eight-year-old boy allegedly kill two men, one of whom was his father?
The 8-year-old was charged on Friday with two counts of first degree murder. The charges allege the boy acted with premeditation to kill his father, Vincent Romero, 29, of St. Johns, and his friend and boarder, Tim Romans, 39, of San Carlos.
Dressed in a jail-issued orange jumpsuit, shackle chains dragging on the floor, the youngster was led into the courtroom by detention officials for the 3 p.m. Friday hearing where a judge was to decide if the 8-year-old should remain in custody or be released to family members. Sitting next to his attorney at the table reserved for defendants, in a chair normally occupied by an adult, the youngster's feet didn't touch the floor.
After working through some procedural issues with the attorneys, superior court Judge Michael Rocca read the youngster his Miranda rights, putting the very specific legal verbiage into words the 8-year-old could understand. "The charges against you, as I've indicated, are very serious," Rocca told the boy. "There is a request that you be detained in the juvenile detention facility, down on Main Street, during the remainder of these proceedings. The hearing today is to determine whether or not it is reasonable to believe you did what you are charged with - not sufficient proof to hold you responsible, but reason to believe and be concerned that you have done what you are charged with." When Rocca asked the young defendant if he understood what he had just heard, the boy indicated he did.
With that, the judge called on Prosecutor Brad Carlyon to call his witnesses. He first called St. Johns Detective Debbie Neckel to the stand. She said she and St. Johns Sgt. Lucas Rodriquez were first to arrive at the Romero residence that afternoon, having been dispatched to investigate a report of a body. She said upon arrival at the two-story home, she saw what appeared to be a man's body lying on the front porch. While Neckel stayed outside with a couple neighbors and the 8-year-old boy she later learned lived in the house, Rodriguez entered the home to clear it of any additional subjects. She said Rodriquez located a second deceased male on the stairs inside the home.
In response to questions from Carlyon, Neckel said she and Apache County Sheriff's Cmdr. Matrese Avila interviewed the youngster the following morning. She said the boy initially told them he got off the school bus and walked around the neighborhood before going home. As he approached the home, he told the officers he saw a body on the front porch and then went inside and called for his dad before seeing his dad's body lying on the stairs. "He said he stayed there for 30 minutes and then he left the residence and went to a neighbor's house where there is another young man. He spoke to him and told him his father was dead and his father's friend was dead," said Neckel.
She said the boy's story changed with every question the officers asked. She said they discussed gun shot residue in words the youngster could understand, and they asked him if he would have any on his clothing - the boy acknowledged that he may have some on his clothing. "He said when he entered the house there was a lot of smoke in the house. He also told us that he did pick up the gun, and that the smoke would have caused (residue) to be on his clothing. We asked if he would have a little or a lot, he said a lot." She said he then admitted that he may have fired the gun.
Did you ask him if he might have been mad at his dad," asked Carlyon. Neckel said the boy admitted he was mad at his dad. "He said that the evening before, he didn't bring some papers home from school and his dad was very angry and had (the boy's) stepmother spank him five swats."
Defense attorney Ben Brewer further questioned the officer about the crime scene - much of his questioning concerned what individuals were at the crime scene, what were they doing there, and how the crime scene evidence was collected. Neckel named the officers who she was aware entered the home. She told Brewer that all of the evidence from the crime scene was collected by Arizona Department of Public Safety crime lab technicians.
Neckel said neither she nor Avila, a certified forensic interviewer, read the boy his Miranda rights. "We felt he was a victim. I would say that in 90 percent of that interview I felt he was a victim." She said it was just in the last few minutes of their conversation with the boy that she and Avila began to believe the boy was not a victim, but something different.
Carlyon next called Sgt. Rodriquez to the stand. He told the court he observed the body on the front porch and believed the person (Romans) was dead. He said he entered the home, quickly searched it for any additional subjects and found a second dead body (Romero) laying face down on the stairs. Carlyon handed the witness several crime scene photographs from which he asked a series of questions concerning the exact location of the bodies, shell casings and other evidence the officer noticed at the scene. Rodriquez said from the shell casings he found near the bodies, he believed the murder weapon was a 22-caliber weapon. Police later located a 22-caliber rifle a couple feet inside the front door - he described the rifle as a single-shot bolt-action rifle. In talking to the boy's grandmother, he said he learned she had originally purchased the gun for her son, and he in turn gave it to his son. "She said (her grandson) knew how to use it." Rodriquez said he learned the Romero family members were hunters and had many guns in the home, mostly stored in the master bedroom.
As to who may have called 911, Rodriquez said he understood the 8-year-old went to his friend's home nearby and told the friend his dad and his dad's friend were dead. Rodriquez believes the friend told the story to a teenage sibling who in turn called their father at work. The father returned home within minutes, saw what appeared to be a body on the front porch of the Romero home and called 911.
Rodriquez admitted it was difficult to talk about some of the things he saw that afternoon at the Romero home.
The final officer to take the stand was Apache County Sheriff's Sgt. Web Hogle. He said his involvement occurred the following day when he relieved another deputy who had retained the chain of custody of the bodies throughout the night at a nearby funeral home. He testified that although the bodies were still fully clothed, he was able to observe what appeared to be 22-caliber pin-point size holes in several locations on their clothing.
Hogle said several members of the Romans family arrived at the funeral home while he was there. He pulled a couple family members aside in an attempt to calm them down, and it was during that time that Romans' wife said her husband called her right after he got home from work. While discussing work and other topics with her husband, she told the officer she could hear the 8-year-old boy in the background yelling at her husband, "Tim, I need you to come in here, something's wrong with dad. Tim, come in the house, something's wrong." Hogel said Ms. Romans insisted the officers talk to the youngster - "He knows something; he was there when something bad happened to my husband. Make sure that they talk to him about this." Ms. Romans said the last thing her husband said to her was that the Romero youngster said something was wrong and he needed to go look into it.
After 4-1/2 hours of testimony, Rocca said he found probable cause that the boy was involved in the crimes he is charged with and ordered that he be detained in the Apache County juvenile detention center for the time being. He ordered a psychiatric evaluation be initiated and requested that child protective services begin an investigation with an eye to future dependency hearings.

Simply amazing. AND SICK!!!! The child needs MAJOR, MAJOR HELP!!! I am not even sure what kind of help he needs, but no 8 year old who is anywhere approaching normal would do something like this. Something is terribly wrong with him. I am not saying he should not be held accountable for the crimes because he should be, but he most definitely is sick on more than one level!!!

A full psychiatric checkout is definitely necessary - if the kid is unstable, that could factor in to how the case is handled.

Sounds like a classic case of Keystone Cops. What was the point of publicizing every detail of this case? They'll never get a conviction because of that alone. Idiots.

somethingfunny wrote:Sounds like a classic case of Keystone Cops. What was the point of publicizing every detail of this case? They'll never get a conviction because of that alone. Idiots.

FIrst off, let me state that I am HIGHLY offended by your smart aleck comments....you see, I'm in law enforcement, I live just 38 miles from this town of "Keystone Cops", many of them are my friends! Secondly, it was NOT the police dept who released the news, it was the newspaper, shortly after this was printed, the judge ordered a gag order put in place!! I suggest you think your thoughts over before posting such offending comments!

David, according to trusted sources, the kid shows signs of being a sociopath, no amount of help, counseling etc would ever help him...he's what is known as a "genetic criminal"...it's in his genetic makeup.

As shocking of the notion of children killing people. It has happened in the past, even before video games, TV, and comics.

Youngest Executed in 1786. She killed another child.
Hannah Ocuish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

azsnowman wrote:

FIrst off, let me state that I am HIGHLY offended by your smart aleck comments....you see, I'm in law enforcement, I live just 38 miles from this town of "Keystone Cops", many of them are my friends! Secondly, it was NOT the police dept who released the news, it was the newspaper, shortly after this was printed, the judge ordered a gag order put in place!! I suggest you think your thoughts over before posting such offending comments!

David, according to trusted sources, the kid shows signs of being a sociopath, no amount of help, counseling etc would ever help him...he's what is known as a "genetic criminal"...it's in his genetic makeup.

I have read that psychopaths/sociopaths is biological. It is proof that people can be born evil, like Fred Phelps, Lori Drew, Jim Jones, and Pol Pot. Sociopaths cannot be treated like mental illness. They have to change and it is their own will to do so.
Wikipedia-Psychopathy