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Agree with French assembly vote to ban religious Garb?
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:49 pm
by JQ Public
Fox News wrote:French Lawmakers Overwhelmingly Back Head Scarf Ban
Tuesday, February 10, 2004
PARIS — France's lower house of parliament voted overwhelmingly Tuesday to ban students from wearing Islamic head scarves (search) and other religious apparel in public schools.
The classroom ban, which also applies to Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses, was approved 494-36. In early March, the measure will go to the Senate, where there is little opposition.
The measure was expected to take effect in September. Applying the law could be the real test: Critics say it's too vague, will create chaos in the classroom, and will inflame anti-French feelings among the nation's large Muslim minority.
The bill stipulates that "in schools, junior high schools and high schools, signs and dress that conspicuously show the religious affiliation of students are forbidden." It would not apply to students in private schools or to French schools in other countries.
Sanctions for refusing to remove conspicuous religious symbols and clothing would range from a warning, to temporary suspension from school, to expulsion.
The bill got far more than the 288 votes in the 577-seat National Assembly needed to pass — a measure of its wide popularity within France, demonstrated repeatedly in public opinion polls.
French leaders hope a law will quell the debate over head scarves that has divided France since 1989, when two young girls were expelled from their school in Creil, outside Paris, for wearing head scarves. Scores more have been expelled since then.
The government argues that a law is needed to protect France's secular traditions and to ward off rising Islamic fundamentalism.
"This law is for us indispensable," said Martine David, a Socialist lawmaker. Teachers "need a clear judicial framework."
Parliament's majority party — the Union for a Popular Movement (search) — agreed Thursday to a last-minute amendment by the Socialists that calls for an evaluation of the law a year after it takes effect.
Lawmakers want the option, if necessary, of being able to alter language banning "conspicuous" symbols to "visible" ones — in order to eliminate vagueness or ambiguity.
The governing UMP party also added an amendment to ensure that mediation takes place before any sanctions are imposed — another Socialist suggestion.
France has been widely condemned in the Arab and Muslim world, where thousands of protesters from Beirut to Baghdad have made known their indignation and opposition to a head scarf ban.
The issue has also proven to be sharply divisive among France's Muslims — at 5 million, Western Europe's largest Islamic community. Many believe that banning head scarves is a way to exclude Muslim girls from public schools and further ostracize their community.
Sociologist Farhad Khosrokhavar (search) says the law will be "the beginning of the problem."
"Even those who do not wear the head scarf will feel offended," said Khosrokhavar, author of "The Head Scarf and the Republic."
"Instead of fighting against Islamic radicalism, it might encourage it," he told Associated Press Television News.
But other Muslims here believe the key to successful integration is to live the values of their adopted land.
"I arrived in France and adapted to this country," said 65-year-old Telly Naar, who came from Morocco 40 years ago. "Each should be able to practice religion at home. If one wants to wear the headscarf outside, fine, but not inside a school that is secular."
Some said the debate helped expose the danger of Islamic fundamentalism and will help roll back radicalism.
"Until now families were alone in fighting fundamentalists, often in the shadows, and at danger to their safety," said Hanifa Cherifi (search), mediator for the national education system on the head scarf issue in schools.
The debate "lifted the veil on fundamentalist thinking, which is taking a population hostage," she said on French parliamentary TV.
So what do yall think about this? I think its a very very interesting turn of events. I may not agree with it tho...
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:11 pm
by JQ Public
don't be shy...this is one place you can agree with the french and not feel bad about it :o b/c no one will know

!
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:23 pm
by OtherHD
No...
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:41 pm
by Lindaloo
I am by no means shy. lol. But I voted yes. Why should Muslims be allowed to change the religion there? I do not get it.
You should have also had a Do not care in that list too. Because after the way France reacted to the United States I could careless who wears what over there.
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:15 pm
by mf_dolphin
I voted no just because I don't like any Government stepping on religous freedom.
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:25 pm
by stormchazer
No...religious freedom shall not be infringed upon!!
Thats why people came by the boatloads in the 16-1700s.
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:34 pm
by Rainband
NO... Lindallo, I must say, I found your comment interesting. The french government doesn't dictate what all of it's people feel. Just like our government doesn't dictate all of our feelings or concerns. Like I said a majority is only a Majority to those who believe it.

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:43 pm
by stormraiser
They are just feeding off of people's fears to bring about their socialist mecca. They aren't concerned about religion, but only about secularism, the complete absence of religion in society is what they are after. (I'm sounding like Helen

)
The French Government treats Christians with the same mistrust and abuse. Would that alone cause an outcry? A lot of Muslims are moral and peace loving people. The French aren't concerned about them, but only to further the French Secularist State.
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:21 pm
by JQ Public
Lindaloo wrote:I am by no means shy. lol. But I voted yes. Why should Muslims be allowed to change the religion there? I do not get it.
You should have also had a Do not care in that list too. Because after the way France reacted to the United States I could careless who wears what over there.
I'm not saying do you agree with the french vote as much as i'm saying do you agree with the idea in general to ban such things as scarfs, turbans, yamikah's (sp?!), Om's, and crosses from being worn on ones person in public school?
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:24 pm
by Rainband
JQ Public wrote:Lindaloo wrote:I am by no means shy. lol. But I voted yes. Why should Muslims be allowed to change the religion there? I do not get it.
You should have also had a Do not care in that list too. Because after the way France reacted to the United States I could careless who wears what over there.
I'm not saying doing you agree with the french vote as much as i'm saying do you agree with the idea in general to ban such things as scarfs, turbans, yamikah's (sp?!), Om's, and crosses from being worn on ones person in public school?
Exactly the issue is the rights the people not wether we like the government of France or not. People are FAR different then the government that "represents" or mis-represents them

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:21 pm
by Lindaloo
Well I still stand behind my "DoNotCare" theory. lol.
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:25 pm
by coriolis
No. Let them wear their garb. Religeious freedom, and all that. I would vote to ban Brittney Spears gear though.
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:30 pm
by Rainband
Lindaloo wrote:Well I still stand behind my "DoNotCare" theory. lol.
I knew you would

(((HUGS)))

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:51 am
by streetsoldier
Watch the Dems, ACLU, Southern Poverty Law Center and every nutcase group you can think of to TRY to introduce some legislation based on the French model HERE, if (a) it passes "over there", and (b) God forbid, we get a Democrat in the Oval Office and/or a switch in partisan majorities in the House and Senate.
All the more reason to DENY the DNC any victory at all.

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:34 am
by GalvestonDuck
I said No!

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:20 am
by JQ Public
and, one thing that people always liked to forget: in western-european countries, from the middle-ages on till around the renaissance, women who were married had to wear a kerchief as well, this was their culture and well, it just was like that.
for example this woman, painted ca 1420.
http://www.csupomona.edu/~plin/ls201/im ... an_big.jpg
or this picture of Queen Catherin eof Aragon
http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/aragon.jpg
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:12 am
by TexasStooge
NO!!!!!
Taking out religious stuff doesn't make a country any better, it just makes the sin rate go higher and higher and higher...
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:00 pm
by JCT777
No. I don't agree with the French. About most things.
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:55 pm
by Anonymous
Lindaloo wrote:But I voted yes. Why should Muslims be allowed to change the religion there? I do not get it.
I hope you're kidding.
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:44 pm
by streetsoldier
brettjrob, the law as it is being voted on within France states that ANY display of religion, be it Jewish (yarmulke, or skullcap), Cathoilc/Protestant (wearing of crosses/crucifixes) or Islam (head scarves for girls/women), will be banned.
Muslims aren't changing anything...it's the French Government taking secularism to new lows.