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How convenient...
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:34 am
by Kiko
Hope this is an impartial enough source for you, Marshall and republicans here:
Bush military records 'destroyed' Documents that could have decided a dispute over President George W Bush's days in the military 30 years ago have been destroyed, the Pentagon says. Microfilm containing the pertinent payroll records for the Texas-based Air National Guard had been damaged and could not be salvaged, it said.
Democrats have accused the president of ducking the draft call to Vietnam in favour of less dangerous duties.
The White House has released some records in a bid to refute the charges.
'No back-up copies'
The destroyed files included President Bush's pay records for two three-month periods in 1969 and 1972, a Department of Defence statement said.
"Searches for back-up paper copies of the missing records were unsuccessful," it added.
The 1969 period is not contentious for Mr Bush, as it is already known he was training to be a pilot at the time.
But in 1972 he moved to Alabama to work on a political campaign, and opponents say he failed to turn up for guard duties during this time.
'Beyond doubt'
The lost records might have thrown some light on whether he fulfilled his legal commitment.
Doubts were first raised nationally about Mr Bush's service during the 2000 presidential campaign and the issue has resurfaced as Mr Bush fights for re-election.
Democratic presidential hopeful John Kerry, a decorated Vietnam veteran, has said Mr Bush must come clean on what he did.
A White House spokeswoman has said the documents already released prove beyond doubt that President Bush "fulfilled his duties in the National Guard at the time".
'Inadvertent destruction'
The microfilm containing the records apparently disintegrated as staff were trying to preserve it from decay.
The loss was announced by the Pentagon's Office of Freedom of Information and Security Review in letters responding to media demands for full access to Mr Bush's records.
"The Defence Finance and Accounting Service has advised of the inadvertent destruction of microfilm containing certain National Guard payroll records," said the letter, signed by the office's chief C Y Talbott.
It added that in 1996 and 1997 the microfilm records of "numerous service members" from the first quarter of 1969 and the third quarter of 1972 were ruined - Mr Bush's among them.
Mr Bush trained as a pilot while a member of the Texas and Alabama air national guard but never flew in combat.
He left the national guard in 1973 with an honourable discharge to attend Harvard Business School.
Story from BBC NEWS:http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/a ... 880141.stmPublished: 2004/07/10 08:48:49 GMT
He also took a couple months off to campaign for some cronies either there or in a nearby state. So one thing Jr. isn't ignorant of is how to do it on the stump. Now during those months he let his flyboy physical lapse and declined from taking one when he got back and checked in--grounding him.
That's when they took his license from him and the rest of the tour was spent pushing paper, but I wouldn't doubt a poker game or two on those weekend warrior weekends. It's what they did back then, liquid lunch too.
--Just one of those democratic long memories before the history revisionists get to work.
Now, with no records to substantiate his claim, this really could get ugly and who the heck released this to the press! The Pentagon? What'sis, they don't like the flyboy either?
I know one thing they've never liked is being run by wusy civilians or anyone they think may have skirked their duty to their country. Campaigning was a legit excuse not to make muster? Me hardly thinks so.
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:36 am
by azsnowman
Hmmm, wonder how THAT happened ,"Inadvertent Destruction" my rear!"
Dennis
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:08 am
by Stephanie
Well, since it is a known fact that the microfilm was destroyed between 1996 & 1997, then I have less reason to question this. We'll never know what really happened in 1972, but at least the microfilm wasn't destroyed "accidentally" during this Administration.
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:14 am
by chadtm80
Ah with Solid proof like that how could we not believe the president
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:03 am
by Kiko
Anyone know what the rules for reservists politiking were back in the 70's?
You don't suppose he got
paid for it do you? Where's the tax returns.
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:02 pm
by wx247
Everyone has skeletons in their closets. If we only let people who didn't have problems run then we would have no one running (for perhaps the exception of me
j/k).
This has been drug and been gone over so many times it makes me sick. Much like the Clinton garbage. Both sides need to move on. I see no reason why this affects the Presidency currently.
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:08 pm
by coriolis
Yeah, my political career was a non-starter.
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:14 pm
by wx247
coriolis wrote:Yeah, my political career was a non-starter.
LMAO Ed!!
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:18 pm
by Kiko
Nice try, wx247. The Guard was the place to be for your "Get-out-of-'Nam" free card in the 70's and everyone knew it.
But I like to know the man has the courage of his convictions. Medals are trappings mostly, designed to pacify the male ego. The take-home pay's not so great though.
Napoleon once said,
"All men are enamored of decorations...they positively hunger for them."So by developing the Napoleonic system – the medal business – the government learned it could get soldiers for less money, because the boys liked to be decorated. Until the Civil War there were no medals. Then the Congressional Medal of Honor was handed out. It made enlistments easier. After the Civil War no new medals were issued until the Spanish-American War.
http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:32 pm
by mf_dolphin
I'm sure the Department of Defense destroyed what looks like 2 quarters of records in 96-97 just to get rid of President Bush's pay records.
If you'd read the article Kiko it says the information was released in response to a Freedom of Information request. If you really want to know what the military in general thinks of President Bush I invite you to go to any military base in the country and ask! I don't think you'll like what you hear though!
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:37 pm
by wx247
Kiko wrote:Nice try, wx247. The Guard was the place to be for your "Get-out-of-'Nam" free card in the 70's and everyone knew it.
But I like to know the man has the courage of his convictions. Medals are trappings mostly, designed to pacify the male ego. The take-home pay's not so great though.
Napoleon once said,
"All men are enamored of decorations...they positively hunger for them."So by developing the Napoleonic system – the medal business – the government learned it could get soldiers for less money, because the boys liked to be decorated. Until the Civil War there were no medals. Then the Congressional Medal of Honor was handed out. It made enlistments easier. After the Civil War no new medals were issued until the Spanish-American War.
http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
What was I "trying" to do?
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:39 pm
by Lindaloo
Nothing that I could read Garrett. I do not undertand where Kiko is coming from with that statement.
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:41 pm
by Kiko
Move on.
This has been drug and been gone over so many times it makes me sick. Much like the Clinton garbage. Both sides need to move on. I see no reason why this affects the Presidency currently.
That's not a resolution to discussion when there are strong feelings and issues still at stake.
You are right about Clinton not at stake... Jr. is though. So like I said, nice try.
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:48 pm
by mf_dolphin
Move on? You started this thread.
Kerry as a war hero? Only in his mind! Splinters and a fragment from a grenade that he fired too close. What a war hero. Maybe Michael Moore will make him the new John Wayne. It would be about as close to the truth as his latest movie! John Kerry as a volunteer? He fought going to Vietnam as hard as he could and got out as soon as he could. Why don't we debate their real positions on issues now? I've read Kerry's entire web site and I still can't tell you where he stands on one major issue for sure. Where are his plans and program details? I realize they'll change tomorrow but I would like to know what today's positions are....
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:50 pm
by Kiko
Marshall, I said 'move on' in reply to what he was wondering he said... So I quoted him too.
HE said to move on...
wx247 wrote:Both sides need to move on. I see no reason why this affects the Presidency currently.
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:29 pm
by Lindaloo
Kiko wrote:Move on.
This has been drug and been gone over so many times it makes me sick. Much like the Clinton garbage. Both sides need to move on. I see no reason why this affects the Presidency currently.
That's not a resolution to discussion when there are strong feelings and issues still at stake.
You are right about Clinton not at stake... Jr. is though. So like I said, nice try.
Actually I think he means parties not the men.
Everyone has the right to discuss anyway they chose. IMO
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:31 pm
by wx247
Kiko, how does it affect GW right now??
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:51 pm
by streetsoldier
Kiko,
It's not merely the "rich and powerful" that have their military records lost; I (USAF, RVN), my father (USAAF/USAFR, WW II/Korea) and my grandfather (Army Signal Corps, Aviation Section/Army Air Corps, WW I) also had their service records "disappear" through fire or mishandling of one sort or another.
At least I still have Dad's, and my own, decorations, qualification badges/"wings" and rank insignia to show for the BS we went through, and copies of my Dad's, and my own, DD265AF (Honorable Discharge papers)...Grandpa Sullivan wasn't so lucky, although I did arrange for his WW I embroidered wings, rank (MAJ, as of 1926) and his Croix De Guerres (French and Belgian) to be reproduced and mounted.
I did this so that my son (coppertop, 16) has some understanding of who he is and what sort of ancestors he has...that certain link with the past that too many of his age lack.
None of us were ever rich, and none of us had anything to "hide".