STORM2K

A post to sink quickly - but here goes anyway:


The problem with solar energy is that it is kept underdeveloped because of infrastructure and maintenance issues. The biggest loss of potential oil-offsetting renewable energy is unused rooftop space and desert. Because it is easier to pump oil or plug into a wall outlet solar energy has gone undeveloped.

Another negative is that solar energy takes significant amounts of fossil fuel-derived energy to manufacture. Charts showing the total accumulative CO2 emmisions from various energy sources show that solar involves a large CO2 output during the manufacturing process due to the need to process silicon.

It's too bad that some new hydro-electric dams or near-magma geo-thermal plants can't be dedicated to solar cell production. That way the loop would be closed and the entire process would be more green. From there more efficient assembly processes can be invented. The problem right now is that solar panels are work-intensive as far as assembly and quality control. At home people don't want to deal with the technical matters involved in their care and upkeep.

This is too bad because an enormous amount of oil-reducing energy is available out there from the sun hitting your rooftop. Advances could be made in solar shingles and solid sheet panels made to look more like regular roofing materials...

Solar collecting mirrors used to create steam by direct reflection are another renewable and green source. This is feasible in the American SW...

Yeah unfortunately using solar power takes some work but does open up some great alternatives.. I am currently designing a Security Cam system with a Wireless DSL connection that has no power at the Camera..Crunching the Volts/Amps numbers with the products available at a reasonable cost is proving to be a good challenge..

There's very little money to be made for corporate America using solar power. Imagine if we all took advantage of solar and wind power. All those oil tycoons would be regular people; they would actually have to work for a living! Imagine that....

Imagine the headline:

Middle East Attacked to Harness Sunshine!

Exactly Alicia. That's the big fat elephant in the room that farts every time they say something like "We are seeking alternative energy sources for America". Yeah, sure you are!

If America put it's potential abilities towards solar we could have hydrogen fuel cell cars and green power in 10 years.

I have no doubt that Japanese-type robotic assembly of solar cells by mass production means could bring the cost of solar panels down 10 fold. If you covered Florida's interstates in arrays using the open space over the highway as a collection field you could power all of Florida with a green source and have some to spare. Also, West Virginia can't get rid of mountain top fill. Florida has open phosphate pits. If some of that coal were used to rail the fill down to Florida, the pits could be filled and huge solar fields could be built on top of them. This is near Tampa. The city could easily be entirely green powered...

Now I wish I were a young man again with an angry solar plan in my head...

Very good point about the profits - thats why I dont believe we will see the emergence of true clean fuels until every last drop of oil is squeezed from the earth - no matter how many people have to die for it.

Aquawind:

We have some awesome sunshine down here in dry season don't we? I fantasize a cell covered low-profile, fuel cell hybrid vehicle. A low-lying for low wind resistance 2 seater that uses a solar cell body to supplement a hydrogen fuel cell engine. Very feasible down here and totally green. Even more feasible out in the SW.


Alicia:


Not only do the arabs have a blessing of oil but they also have deserts of silicon in that sand as well as very good insolation in that region. Australia has huge solar potential...

There are so many applications and enough money down here for people to buy them and thus help the development and improvements to make them even more feasable..They need alot more money for solar and wind power generation..Problem is the Auto industry already has so much into fossil fuel machines and no competition.. They need to be forced legally..probably never happen in our lifetime..unless the oil runs dry..

The Sunshine State should have alot more marketing for Solar alternatives...

California may be the Fruit & Nut state, but they sure have a lot of initiatives for projects like this. It only takes the right motivation. If you can learn how to write a grant, you can get all kinds of govt cash to research and develop these types of things. Govt cash, heck, you could probably go to a private corporation or a research think tank and get funding. It might be worth it to make the planet a better place for those who come after us (and I dont mean chasing us around the block.)

I think that the secret to solar power/wind power is when there are affordable devices that people can use in small ways to get out of the "electricity habit" without excess cost to themselves and obstacles in their way in terms of things like zoning laws against categories of structures or devices (such as roof-mounted wind turbines).

I might not want to or be able to power my entire house from a small wind turbine or solar panels, but if I could gradually power stuff that way, over time I'd have less and less electrical usage.

There are solar powered outdoor lights. So okay--they don't represent much of a power savings--but the more stuff like this that is solar powered (or wind powered, etc.) the less in plugged in. And if you turn off every single thing in your house and go outside you will see your electric meter spinning quite fast because of all the standby power stuff like TVs use. You have to actually UNPLUG your TV, stereo, etc. to get them to stop using power. The off switch does not do it.

I don't think you need a lot of sun for solar power--and here is my reasoning. Many years ago someone gave me (like 1958-1960) a solar-powered broiler-oven that will cook a steak on a cloudy day when you can't see the sun in about 4 minutes! I'm guessing that the "glass" cover is some type of prism that focuses the sun's rays (like starting a fire with your eyeglasses--mine do this very quickly). And I've found that if you want a pretty hot shower, those plastic camping showers left in the sun heat up really quickly. So perhaps I can't run my house--but if I can do a bunch of small things, that's electricity I'm not pulling from the power co--and it adds up.

Why not some small portable solar panels to perform specific tasks? How do you convert solar energy to electric energy? It's the converter that is the issue--but couldn't you make a solar panel and some type of converter to run just your freezer? I guess the problem is the initial demand to start the motor, so perhaps you'd have to figure out that part of it--but once it is going, if you could cover the draw with some type of solar panel. Then perhaps you could do the same for a TV set. Porch lights already work--some better than others.

And what about little wind turbines--not the huge things the power companies use, but little ones to stick on the roof... If people could use a windmill to pump water back in pre-electricity days, you should be able to use one today to pump water, even if you had to have electrical backup for when there was no wind... The trick would be the "switch" from wind to electric and back... And why not run other stuff off small windmills?

I think the technology is there today for people who live "off the grid" but it is expensive, requires a bunch of technical expertise to bother with, and is not accessible technology for most of us. But I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to make it accessible technology even for people in cities, etc. I should not have to live 40 miles out into the woods before I'm allowed to put up a small windmill or a solar panel without having to go to the zoning board of appeals. He**, in my town, it is technically against the law to have a clothesline!!! Forget about whether it is visible from the street, the existence of a clothesline is in itself against zoning. I'm supposed to always use my electric/gas dryer! What a stupid law! By the way, I put up the clothesline anyway, and have been waiting 6 years for the clothesline police to show up--but the bottom line is that using clotheslines saves energy and it is stupid not to use one when it is convenient.

My little prism solar cooker is extraordinarily efficient. Unfortunately, I need to make it a new "box" to live in (it is >40 years old and is pretty mangy) but you can get it to 500 degrees in minutes and can bake, broil in it. At least as good as a gas grill--and costs nothing to run and no dealing with propane, etc. By the way, I've never seen one for sale--ever. I sometimes fantasize about reverse-engineering this thing and making them for sale to finance my retirement...

In the meantime, I think people should begin to protest appliances, etc. that use ever-more and more electricity.gas, etc. to run. The energy-star program is designed to educate people about energy usage, but the bottom line is that they should hit the manufacturers who put all those "always on" options in appliances. Most people don't need their TV to be always on. Those that do can just turn it on and leave it that way (they do anyway) and those that don't can wait 30-45 seconds for it to warm up...

By the way, European appliances, by law, have to be much more conservative of energy than the ones here and they work just fine. Also, washers, etc. there use a lot less water--and get your clothes cleaner! Also, they heat their own water (as do dishwashers) so you don't have to feed them hot water. For that matter many houses there have hot water heaters that sit under sinks, in bathrooms, etc. and heat the water where you use it and when you use it so that you are not constantly heating water when you don't need it and then losing a lot of the "heat" to get the water from the hot water heater to the shower, sink, washer, etc. Those heaters are really expensive here because they sell so few of them--not because they are inherently more expensive! Ditto the washers, etc.

If these were sold in quantity, made by more than one company, etc. we'd have the prices drop quickly because of economies of scale and competitive pricing.

I think a lot of the solutions are already out there, but there is no way for normal middle-class families to avail themselves of these. We are not the ones who can apply for and get the grants, etc. to equip our modest 3-bedroom 1.5 bath houses with these devices. The guy who gets the grant is the millionnaire who can build the super-experimental house....

I think the bottom line is, as long as the oil industry keeps making a killing and supporting our elected officials, there will be no serious effort to develop alternative energy. We have the ability to move ahead, just no committment from big business. We must remember also, that our economy is driven by designed obsolescence, in other words, they need it to be replaced so you keep coming back for more. The idea that you could have an energy source that, other than routine maintenance and part replacement, wouldn't keep you spending money on a regular basis, scares the heck out of big business.

If your really want to look into solar energy pro's and con's go over to

http://peakoil.com

Read the forums. It really looks by what people are saying, and using some common sense, that sooner OR later we are going to start to run out of cheap energy (when? million dollar question). When that happens the only way I can see, short of building 100+ nuke plants and using coal, coal, and more coal, that we are really going to have to cut our use of energy.

Example-instead driving SUV--biking on bicycle (maybe even electric!)
-instead of fossil fuel food--organically grown food locally grown

Overpopulation seems to also come into play. If we keep growing @ the current rate, this planet is really going to become trashed.

Not to long ago China didn't import any oil. Now there #2 behind the US for oil importation. <--1 billion Chinese driving Navigator's?

The answer is in a solar shingle made to look like roof shingles. The company that can mass-produce these things and get their price down can cover an entire roof in solar shingles or PV sheet roofing. That way a roof will be fully functional as a solar array without even looking like it is. We're not talking about a bunch of awkward panels up on a mounted rack, but a passive roof covered on all surfaces with PV shingles.

I believe Florida has a law requiring all community codes to allow rooftop PV panels.

California has a liberal state rebate policy of up to 50% for solar installation. If you spend $60,000 for a system you get $30,000 back. In California you can make that back in 5-7 years and it pays for itself. That is because California cities charge by different tiers of power demand according to hour of the day. Tier rates just happen to coincide with solar output. In other words, the more sun the higher the rate. By avoiding prime solar hours charges solar power users avoid the highest cost power and recoup the price of the system faster. The excess is then sold back to the grid.

Solar panels age and their output declines. They are warranteed for 20 years and last about 25-30 or more...

Oil is still relatively cheap. The economics have to turn around. It's amazing what the free market can achieve when the economics are there. Government regulation, intervention, and incentivess don't really do much. When it's cheaper, it's there.

Well, if you look at what you are saying from a different perspective you might say "It's amazing what the market can keep from happening".

People tend to ignore the enivironmental "cost" of what this market imposes. I think solar is a good offest to that and should be developed outside of market fickleness...

If you look @ the real cost of oil (wars, pollution, etc.) then a gallon of gas would probably increase significantly.

Theres no such thing as a free lunch!

coriolis wrote:Oil is still relatively cheap. The economics have to turn around. It's amazing what the free market can achieve when the economics are there. Government regulation, intervention, and incentivess don't really do much. When it's cheaper, it's there.

Unfortunately, I think this is true. Also, we've been encouraged more and more to be a "disposable" economy. An awful lot of stuff is designed to be tossed out rather than kept for a long time, repaired, etc.

We are not particularly "ecology-minded"--yet our trash volume is about 1/4 of that of our neighbors without any effort we can identify other than the fact that we compost vegetable matter--and this is year in, year out. Our water company puts a notice on our bill about our usage in relation to others--for some reason, in 6 years, not only have we never used enough water to make it beyond the "minimum charge" for connection to the system, but we seem to use about 1/2 the water they expect us to--and we water flowers, vegetable garden, etc. We do have low volume washer and dishwasher--but because we like the way the washer cleans clothes and does not destroy them, etc. Dishwasher is laziness (it's the first time we've ever had one). We apparently don't spend as much on gas as other people--and have very economical cars (no SUV) and we tend to plan driving--but that is both because we remember gas crises of years past and because it is an "easy" way to save money. We don't "need" big cars, SUV, etc. Our cars are easy to park, not high theft targets, etc. We do turn off lights, don't waste heat/AC, don't brush teeth while water is running, and don't take 45 minute showers, etc.--but we don't notice these "economies." Also, I like to dry sheets, etc. out on the line--but don't do it for energy savings, but because I like the way they smell afterwards.

Perhaps we grew up when the costs of utilities were higher or our families were poorer when our habits were developed. But I can see that if there were a push to make a few changes in people's lifestyles, it would mean a tremendous net savings. I think just turning off lights, appliances, etc. when you are not in the room can make a difference. I think not eating a lot of preprocessed and overpackaged food makes a huge difference in what goes in the trash. (We buy ingredients and cook stuff--our neighbor, for example, just heats stuff up. Same size household and 4x the trash!

I like the idea of solar roof shingles. Do they exist? Why not? or if they do, why isn't their existence publicized? Why aren't "off" buttons really "off" buttons on most stuff &/or why is there so little choice?

In earlier posts on Storm2K I've seen references to "freesites" where people who don't want something that is still perfectly good can post it and people who want/need it can come and take it away. Good idea. Our town dump has a building where you can leave tag sale like items that you don't want/need and where people who want/need these items can take them away (for free). I think this saves an amazing amount of perfectly good stuff from becoming landfill. We've always been a sort of recycling focus for friends, etc. People are always calling us and offering us stuff. And in turn, we often give away good stuff to friends who call us and ask if we know where they can find a "such and such." There are many people who marry and discover they now have 2 toasters, 2 coffee pots, etc. Others move into condos and now have working lawnmowers, snowblowers, etc. to get rid of. People move to houses with central air and have a whole raft of fans, etc. The kids outgrow the toys. But most of this surplus stuff goes to the dump instead of to people who can use it.

If people realize that they can be a part of the solution without hardship, I think more people would be "energy-wise." Also, I suspect the trick is to do so in many different areas of life.

You should see some low-impact alternative houses on their websites. These are New Mexico-based alternative houses designed to be low-cost and made of recycled materials. Most people would not want to live in a discarded rubber tire or straw bale house , but on the inside they look like ordinary houses because the materials are plastered or adobe-ed over.

What is particularly interesting about the tire houses is that their eco-minded designers designed them to be super-environmentally conserving. They come with a large water cistern and water recycling. Toilet water is called "black water" and isn't recycled for drinking - but is recycled for an attached indoors garden (it freezes in New Mexico). It's amazing how much water they save in the parched desert southwest. They have more advanced designs that add photovoltaic solar as a power source.

One of the side effects of our inflating society is that this simple lifestyle gains more relative value. If you can garden and conserve the value of what you don't have to spend for goes way up.

I haven't seen any solar shingles simply because PV panels take enough of the market and design resources to prevent any viable market for them. Right now photovoltaics are an elite experimental market. It's too bad because if you go to the California PV websites you can see they are viable right now and pay for themselves. The problem is it is easier for the average homeowner to plug into the coal furnace. If a company got the upper hand on development costs through volume they would take-off. Right now the nearest thing available is a new PV sheet material with lower output. It is called PV film technology and is designed to be cheaper to produce...

If I were to have a hand in the design of our present house I would have included a water cistern and gutter collection system. The amounts of pure rainwater that run off our roof in the summer down here in south Florida are huge.

If you google there is a house in north Florida SW of Jacksonville that was built by some retiring college professors. It is solar-powered and designed to be conserving. It included a large rainwater catch and cistern. They have a website detailing the design and progress...