STORM2K

Posted: **Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:42 pm**

....I have an answer, and I don't like it one bit.

While flying to Austin yesterday for some work-related stuff, I found out something that shocked the heck outta me:

I am on an FBI terrorist watch list.

I tried to check in at the little computer kiosk like I always do...but the computer just spit out a receipt that said that I had to go to the counter. I figured someone got the reservation wrong, so I went to get things straightened out. I handed the woman at the counter the slip the computer gave me, my confirmation number and my id. She typed. And typed. And excused herself to make a phone call. And then another phone call.

When she gets back - 30 minutes later - she hands me a marked up boarding pass and a slip of paper with an 800 number on it. "The TSA has you on a watch list, so you are going to have your bags searched," she said. "it's going to happen every time you fly. We can't change it, because its the FBI that maintains it. You gotta call this number and get it straightened out."

So when I get home (after a couple of brutal security checks), I call the 800 number. Turns out that I could have been listed for almost anything - for travel any time around 9/11/01 (I was in Mexico), for taking one way flights, for paying cash, for moving too much, for having a name thats too similar to one that is justifiably listed (some are only listed with first initials - I have a very common last name, so my odds aren't good). But they can't tell me exactly WHY I am on the list. Its classified information.

Oh, and I can't get off the list, either. Not even if they screwed up. All I can do is submit some sort of a form to the government with all my vital personal info along with notarized copies of more forms of ID than I think I even have ... and then, when and IF that ever gets processed, I will get a letter that essentially states that I am not a terrorist.

Will that letter allow me to do curbside check-in again? Nope. Will it let me bypass the lines at the counter by checking in online or at the kiosk? Nope. Will it allow me to go through security normally? Maybe....it depends on the airline, and the disposition of the TSA agents in that particular airport.

So let me sum this up: I am a 26 year old anglo woman (with a very anglo name) who was born an American citizen. I have never been in any sort of legal trouble (I dont count speeding tickets). I have been through the federal clearance process (at a relatively low level) and passed with flying colors (I did menial work for the feds in Denver). And now I am gonna have to bring 3 forms of ID to the airport every time I fly, submit to questioning and have my every personal article searched with a fine tooth comb. I've been labeled a terrorist for god-only-knows-what, and I can't contest it, and I can't do anything about it. And that's just what I know about....who knows what other breeches of freedom/privacy this could lead to???

What a load of BS. Seriously.

Has anyone else here been "listed"? I know there are thousands of errant listings....I just never expected to be one.

I dunno. I don't want this to turn into a raging debate....so please, try not to fight in here, or get this thread deleted. I just really want people to think....to put a face to the names they see on the news, maybe.... its easy to think it could never happen to you, cuz I thought the same thing. I was wrong.

Here is an article sharing other "listed" people's stories...this, apparently, is what I am in for:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8705746/

I am apparently on the "selectee list" - I can fly, but am subject to extensive searches and possibly interrogation before each flight.

Apparently the ACLU is suing the government over this very measure, because innocent people have no way to clear their name. Here is a little info on the suit:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/04/06/no.fly.lawsuit/

I am going to go to their website and find out how I can support them in this - I'll do anything I can.

Please, people, just stop and think.... these mistakes are very real and are leading to a significant loss of liberty for thousands of innocent Americans .... please ask your representatives to pressure the TSA to get this fixed.....

Posted: **Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:45 pm**

apparently there IS a way to get off the list. it just isnt easy. i'll do some digging around since i do have access to classified stuff. see if i can find you an unclassified response.

Posted: **Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:50 pm**

Airline passengers who believe they’ve been wrongly detained or confused with someone on the watch lists can call that office at 877-266-2837, or 877-2OMBUDS. They’ll receive a form letter requiring additional personal information that must be notarized.

Posted: **Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:54 pm**

Edward Hasbrouck has the goods on the no-fly lawsuit brought by the ACLU in Washington State.

The government filed a number of documents, some in secret, some public. The secret ones include a number of security directives to airlines. The public ones include the forms used by the TSA Ombudsman in the process of trying to help those caught by the no-fly and selectee lists for having a name similar or the same as the person actually put on the list.

Here's those docs (.pdf).

The process works like this: you contact the TSA ombudsman at 571.227.2383 (or 571.227.1449) or by email at ombudsman@dhs.gov. You explain what's happening to you and if they think you are being snagged because of your name (and not because you bought one-way tickets or paid with cash or made a last minute reservation), they send you a Passenger Identity Verification Form.

You fill that out and give them your office phone, SSN, address, place of birth, height, hair color, etc.

You also have to provide them with copies of 3 of the following:

1. Passport
2. Visa (no, not your credit card)
3. Certified Birth Certificate (if you need one of these you go online and order one from the state you were born for $15 bucks or so)
4. Naturalization Certificate
5. Voter Registration Card
6. Driver's License
7. Government Identity Card
8. Military Card

Then you get those notarized.

(Note that having three of these is a pain in the ass, especially for anyone who is not registered to vote or does not have a passport.)

After they get this, they do some sort of identity authorization, primarily based on your social security number. I assume that Lexis-Nexis or Acxiom or Choicepoint is used.

Then if you are lucky, you and your information gets put on a list of people cleared off the list. This get-off-the-list list is then sent to the airlines. From then on you should bring at least two forms of identification and the airlines are supposed to clear you faster.

Posted: **Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:57 pm**

unfortunately, stuff like that happens.... every time I fly, whether being for military or just for fun, I always have to show 2 forms of Picture ID and have pat down searches.... It doesn't matter that I'm military... they still will try to double security checks on some people

Yes, I do agree... it is a royal pain in the butt

Posted: **Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:06 pm**

This is why the no-fly list and the (un)PATRIOT(ic) Act are worse than useless.

Posted: **Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:14 pm**

Thank you, Alicia. I'm not sure if that 877 number is the same one I called....I will check to make sure. I was referred to the same "identity form" - it can be downloaded as a PDF from the TSA website. I am going to fill it out and try to round up the ID necessary (I am not registered to vote in Texas, and I don't have a current passport, so I don't know how long it will take to get either of the two....if its even possible while on the list....I really don't know). But the woman I spoke to told me that that procedure does not get you off the list completely - it just makes the security stops go faster because you have a letter from the TSA. I still will have to check in at the counter, answer additional questions, carry additional ID and plan on being searched. Was she wrong??? And I take it if you were listed due to something you did while traveling (like I said, I was out of country during 9/11), does that mean you are just SOL??? I know nothing about this list other than what I've read online and what the TSA rep told me.....

Posted: **Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:28 pm**

It's ironic that the things done in the name of freedom only make us less free. Stories like this bring it home. We're now treating ordinary Americans like terrorists. Paranoia has won, and Franklin's famous line has never been truer.

What if the next terrorist attack is carried out by three guys named Smith, Jones and Brown? That should tie up the check-in lines from here to the end of time.

Posted: **Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:03 pm**

The goverment had to do something..If we had done nothing I'm sure we would have had another terrorist attack in the U.S. by now....Before you knock what the goverment is doing ask yourself what would you want the goverment doing if you would of lost someone in the terrorist attacks...

Posted: **Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:15 pm**

Every year my husband flies into Washington DC for business. He has told me since 9/11 it is strict business at the airport. They search his bags, etc. The airport does all of this and he has already been cleared to go to the White House. So you would think since he has been cleared for that they would trust him at the airport. But it is for security reason and I would rather them to do that then have 9/11 happen again.

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:05 pm**

Welcome to the machine.

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:12 pm**

The Big Dog wrote:It's ironic that the things done in the name of freedom only make us less free. Stories like this bring it home. We're now treating ordinary Americans like terrorists. Paranoia has won, and Franklin's famous line has never been truer.

What if the next terrorist attack is carried out by three guys named Smith, Jones and Brown? That should tie up the check-in lines from here to the end of time.

Incidents like this make it seem like the terrorists got what they wanted... I REALLY hate to say it.

4 years later and now more than ever I believe it.

Oh and I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt the next attack will involve an airplane. Watch for a London-style attack on the ground transportation system in a big city.

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:31 pm**

Brent wrote:
The Big Dog wrote:It's ironic that the things done in the name of freedom only make us less free. Stories like this bring it home. We're now treating ordinary Americans like terrorists. Paranoia has won, and Franklin's famous line has never been truer.

What if the next terrorist attack is carried out by three guys named Smith, Jones and Brown? That should tie up the check-in lines from here to the end of time.

Incidents like this make it seem like the terrorists got what they wanted... I REALLY hate to say it.
4 years later and now more than ever I believe it.

Oh and I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt the next attack will involve an airplane. Watch for a London-style attack on the ground transportation system in a big city.

I have to agree with that statement.

We do have to be careful and we are in a "new age" - the terror age. That's not going to go away. We have to stay security-conscious when travelling. However, I have to wonder sometimes if our agents really know what they are looking for.

BTW - I hope that you can get this resolved stormie.

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:43 pm**

The next attack will not involve airplanes but are designed to be high body count events. It will be bombings of several types from the chatter I see.

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:59 pm**

These terror attacks are causing more of a circus at the airports, bus terminals, and train stations imo

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:02 pm**

BEER980 wrote:The next attack will not involve airplanes but are designed to be high body count events. It will be bombings of several types from the chatter I see.

Do you work for the US Government? Chatter. On message boards??

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:10 pm**

BEER980 wrote:The next attack will not involve airplanes but are designed to be high body count events. It will be bombings of several types from the chatter I see.

I hope they aren't reading this, BUT...if the terrorists want that kind of massive slaughter, a small, Midwestern college town with a sizeable mall would do nicely for their purpose.

BEER980, you once posted something about such an attack in a mall with a diversionary bombing...could you provide a link for that? :larrow:

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:27 pm**

I'm a big nascar fan.. I go to as many races as I can get too. Ever since 9/11 When I'm in the crowd I always think....hmmmmm what a easy target we are packed in here like sardines...I worry that a sporting event may be the next target in the U.S.

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:35 pm**

feederband wrote:I'm a big nascar fan.. I go to as many races as I can get too. Ever since 9/11 When I'm in the crowd I always think....hmmmmm what a easy target we are packed in here like sardines...I worry that a sporting event may be the next target in the U.S.

See you at Talladega.

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:37 pm**

streetsoldier wrote:
BEER980 wrote:The next attack will not involve airplanes but are designed to be high body count events. It will be bombings of several types from the chatter I see.

I hope they aren't reading this, BUT...if the terrorists want that kind of massive slaughter, a small, Midwestern college town with a sizeable mall would do nicely for their purpose.

BEER980, you once posted something about such an attack in a mall with a diversionary bombing...could you provide a link for that?

If gut instincts of people like me and you, and beer, people who watch this daily mean anything, well on 9/11 I expected there to be explosions in the malls. It was the logical thing for them to do. If you want to terrify people, make it so they can't avoid your terror. People talk about staying out of tall buildings, but they don't understand the power these people have to cause maiming and death without anything but explosives and duct tape.

When suicide bombings and truck bombings become regular, then you will see America go insane.

STORM2K

For those who ask, "What freedoms have YOU lost?"

For those who ask, "What freedoms have YOU lost?"