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Scientists respond to Gore's warnings of climate catastrophe

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:16 pm
by jasons2k
IMO this is actually a decent article without all the political "spin". It's written by a mechanical engineer who digs for some scientific answers:

Scientists respond to Gore's warnings of climate catastrophe
"The Inconvenient Truth" is indeed inconvenient to alarmists

By Tom Harris
Monday, June 12, 2006

"Scientists have an independent obligation to respect and present the truth as they see it," Al Gore sensibly asserts in his film "An Inconvenient Truth", showing at Cumberland 4 Cinemas in Toronto since Jun 2. With that outlook in mind, what do world climate experts actually think about the science of his movie?

Professor Bob Carter of the Marine Geophysical Laboratory at James Cook University, in Australia gives what, for many Canadians, is a surprising assessment: "Gore's circumstantial arguments are so weak that they are pathetic. It is simply incredible that they, and his film, are commanding public attention." But surely Carter is merely part of what most people regard as a tiny cadre of "climate change skeptics" who disagree with the "vast majority of scientists" Gore cites?

No; Carter is one of hundreds of highly qualified non-governmental, non-industry, non-lobby group climate experts who contest the hypothesis that human emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) are causing significant global climate change. "Climate experts" is the operative term here. Why? Because what Gore's "majority of scientists" think is immaterial when only a very small fraction of them actually work in the climate field.

Even among that fraction, many focus their studies on the impacts of climate change; biologists, for example, who study everything from insects to polar bears to poison ivy. "While many are highly skilled researchers, they generally do not have special knowledge about the causes of global climate change," explains former University of Winnipeg climatology professor Dr. Tim Ball. "They usually can tell us only about the effects of changes in the local environment where they conduct their studies."

This is highly valuable knowledge, but doesn't make them climate change cause experts, only climate impact experts. So we have a smaller fraction. But it becomes smaller still. Among experts who actually examine the causes of change on a global scale, many concentrate their research on designing and enhancing computer models of hypothetical futures. "These models have been consistently wrong in all their scenarios," asserts Ball. "Since modelers concede computer outputs are not "predictions" but are in fact merely scenarios, they are negligent in letting policy-makers and the public think they are actually making forecasts."

We should listen most to scientists who use real data to try to understand what nature is actually telling us about the causes and extent of global climate change. In this relatively small community, there is no consensus, despite what Gore and others would suggest.

Here is a small sample of the side of the debate we almost never hear:
Appearing before the Commons Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development last year, Carleton University paleoclimatologist Professor Tim Patterson testified, "There is no meaningful correlation between CO2 levels and Earth's temperature over this [geologic] time frame. In fact, when CO2 levels were over ten times higher than they are now, about 450 million years ago, the planet was in the depths of the absolute coldest period in the last half billion years." Patterson asked the committee, "On the basis of this evidence, how could anyone still believe that the recent relatively small increase in CO2 levels would be the major cause of the past century's modest warming?"

Patterson concluded his testimony by explaining what his research and "hundreds of other studies" reveal: on all time scales, there is very good correlation between Earth's temperature and natural celestial phenomena such changes in the brightness of the Sun.

Dr. Boris Winterhalter, former marine researcher at the Geological Survey of Finland and professor in marine geology, University of Helsinki, takes apart Gore's dramatic display of Antarctic glaciers collapsing into the sea. "The breaking glacier wall is a normally occurring phenomenon which is due to the normal advance of a glacier," says Winterhalter. "In Antarctica the temperature is low enough to prohibit melting of the ice front, so if the ice is grounded, it has to break off in beautiful ice cascades. If the water is deep enough icebergs will form."

Dr. Wibjörn Karlén, emeritus professor, Dept. of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology, Stockholm University, Sweden, admits, "Some small areas in the Antarctic Peninsula have broken up recently, just like it has done back in time. The temperature in this part of Antarctica has increased recently, probably because of a small change in the position of the low pressure systems."

But Karlén clarifies that the 'mass balance' of Antarctica is positive - more snow is accumulating than melting off. As a result, Ball explains, there is an increase in the 'calving' of icebergs as the ice dome of Antarctica is growing and flowing to the oceans. When Greenland and Antarctica are assessed together, "their mass balance is considered to possibly increase the sea level by 0.03 mm/year - not much of an effect," Karlén concludes.

The Antarctica has survived warm and cold events over millions of years. A meltdown is simply not a realistic scenario in the foreseeable future.
Gore tells us in the film, "Starting in 1970, there was a precipitous drop-off in the amount and extent and thickness of the Arctic ice cap." This is misleading, according to Ball: "The survey that Gore cites was a single transect across one part of the Arctic basin in the month of October during the 1960s when we were in the middle of the cooling period. The 1990 runs were done in the warmer month of September, using a wholly different technology."

Karlén explains that a paper published in 2003 by University of Alaska professor Igor Polyakov shows that, the region of the Arctic where rising temperature is supposedly endangering polar bears showed fluctuations since 1940 but no overall temperature rise. "For several published records it is a decrease for the last 50 years," says Karlén
Dr. Dick Morgan, former advisor to the World Meteorological Organization and climatology researcher at University of Exeter, U.K. gives the details, "There has been some decrease in ice thickness in the Canadian Arctic over the past 30 years but no melt down. The Canadian Ice Service records show that from 1971-1981 there was average, to above average, ice thickness. From 1981-1982 there was a sharp decrease of 15% but there was a quick recovery to average, to slightly above average, values from 1983-1995. A sharp drop of 30% occurred again 1996-1998 and since then there has been a steady increase to reach near normal conditions since 2001."

Concerning Gore's beliefs about worldwide warming, Morgan points out that, in addition to the cooling in the NW Atlantic, massive areas of cooling are found in the North and South Pacific Ocean; the whole of the Amazon Valley; the north coast of South America and the Caribbean; the eastern Mediterranean, Black Sea, Caucasus and Red Sea; New Zealand and even the Ganges Valley in India. Morgan explains, "Had the IPCC used the standard parameter for climate change (the 30 year average) and used an equal area projection, instead of the Mercator (which doubled the area of warming in Alaska, Siberia and the Antarctic Ocean) warming and cooling would have been almost in balance."

Gore's point that 200 cities and towns in the American West set all time high temperature records is also misleading according to Dr. Roy Spencer, Principal Research Scientist at The University of Alabama in Huntsville. "It is not unusual for some locations, out of the thousands of cities and towns in the U.S., to set all-time records," he says. "The actual data shows that overall, recent temperatures in the U.S. were not unusual."

Carter does not pull his punches about Gore's activism, "The man is an embarrassment to US science and its many fine practitioners, a lot of whom know (but feel unable to state publicly) that his propaganda crusade is mostly based on junk science."

In April sixty of the world's leading experts in the field asked Prime Minister Harper to order a thorough public review of the science of climate change, something that has never happened in Canada. Considering what's at stake - either the end of civilization, if you believe Gore, or a waste of billions of dollars, if you believe his opponents - it seems like a reasonable request.

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:40 pm
by FunkMasterB
Sounds like the author does just what Gore does: Cherry pick the opinions and data that supports his ideology.

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:46 pm
by tallbunch
He did a lot about the enviroment when he was in office... :roll:

Oh, and thanks to Al gore, I can view the internet since he DID invent it. :eek:

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:48 pm
by FunkMasterB

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:04 pm
by x-y-no
Well, this article leads off with a valid point - that not all scientists are experts in climate change. This is something I have repeatedly pointed out when skeptics bring up that petition out of Oregon.

But then the author falls into the same trap - citing a series of geologists to support his contention that there's nothing to AGW. Well sorry, but gelogists, while possibly (but not neccesarily) having some connection to paleoclimatology, are not notably climate scientists either. And there is a substantial consensus among climate scientists that AGW is real.

Oh, and, I'd hardly call this article devoid of political spin. It's in fact entirely one-sided. And tell me, does Gore truly say that AGW is going to be "the end of civilization" or is that not exaggeration (i.e. political spin)?

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:05 pm
by x-y-no
tallbunch wrote:He did a lot about the enviroment when he was in office... :roll:

Oh, and thanks to Al gore, I can view the internet since he DID invent it. :eek:


:roll: :roll: Perpetuating the lie that he claimed anything of the sort does little for your credibility. :roll: :roll:

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:13 pm
by gtalum
x-y-no wrote: :roll: :roll: Perpetuating the lie that he claimed anything of the sort does little for your credibility. :roll: :roll:


He did claim that he took the initiative in creating the internet while in congress, even though the internet was created a decade or more before he ever entered congress. Lying and self-aggrandizement are rarely good for one's credibility.

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:18 pm
by FunkMasterB
Well, this article leads off with a valid point - that not all scientists are experts in climate change. This is something I have repeatedly pointed out when skeptics bring up that petition out of Oregon.


And let's not forget that the article itself is written by a mechanical engineer, hardly a climatologist.

I found the article to be complete trash, not unlike similar articles that try to debunk the theory of evolution.

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:57 pm
by x-y-no
gtalum wrote:
x-y-no wrote: :roll: :roll: Perpetuating the lie that he claimed anything of the sort does little for your credibility. :roll: :roll:


He did claim that he took the initiative in creating the internet while in congress, even though the internet was created a decade or more before he ever entered congress. Lying and self-aggrandizement are rarely good for one's credibility.



Well, here's what the people who really did invent the internet had to say on the topic:



Al Gore and the Internet

By Robert Kahn and Vinton Cerf
Al Gore was the first political leader to recognize the importance of the
Internet and to promote and support its development.

No one person or even small group of persons exclusively "invented" the
Internet. It is the result of many years of ongoing collaboration among
people in government and the university community. But as the two people
who designed the basic architecture and the core protocols that make the
Internet work, we would like to acknowledge VP Gore's contributions as a
Congressman, Senator and as Vice President. No other elected official, to
our knowledge, has made a greater contribution over a longer period of time.

Last year the Vice President made a straightforward statement on his
role. He said: "During my service in the United States Congress I took the
initiative in creating the Internet." We don't think, as some people have
argued, that Gore intended to claim he "invented" the Internet. Moreover,
there is no question in our minds that while serving as Senator, Gore's
initiatives had a significant and beneficial effect on the still-evolving
Internet. The fact of the matter is that Gore was talking about and
promoting the Internet long before most people were listening. We feel it
is timely to offer our perspective.

As far back as the 1970s Congressman Gore promoted the idea of high speed
telecommunications as an engine for both economic growth and the
improvement of our educational system. He was the first elected official
to grasp the potential of computer communications to have a broader impact
than just improving the conduct of science and scholarship. Though easily
forgotten, now, at the time this was an unproven and controversial
concept. Our work on the Internet started in 1973 and was based on even
earlier work that took place in the mid-late 1960s. But the Internet, as we
know it today, was not deployed until 1983. When the Internet was still in
the early stages of its deployment, Congressman Gore provided intellectual
leadership by helping create the vision of the potential benefits of high
speed computing and communication. As an example, he sponsored hearings on
how advanced technologies might be put to use in areas like coordinating
the response of government agencies t!
o !
!
!
natu
ral disasters and other crises.

As a Senator in the 1980s Gore urged government agencies to consolidate
what at the time were several dozen different and unconnected networks into
an "Interagency Network." Working in a bi-partisan manner with officials
in Ronald Reagan and George Bush's administrations, Gore secured the
passage of the High Performance Computing and Communications Act in
1991. This "Gore Act" supported the National Research and Education
Network (NREN) initiative that became one of the major vehicles for the
spread of the Internet beyond the field of computer science.

As Vice President Gore promoted building the Internet both up and out, as
well as releasing the Internet from the control of the government agencies
that spawned it. He served as the major administration proponent for
continued investment in advanced computing and networking and private
sector initiatives such as Net Day. He was and is a strong proponent of
extending access to the network to schools and libraries. Today,
approximately 95% of our nation's schools are on the Internet. Gore
provided much-needed political support for the speedy privatization of the
Internet when the time arrived for it to become a commercially-driven
operation.

There are many factors that have contributed to the Internet's rapid growth
since the later 1980s, not the least of which has been political support
for its privatization and continued support for research in advanced
networking technology. No one in public life has been more intellectually
engaged in helping to create the climate for a thriving Internet than the
Vice President. Gore has been a clear champion of this effort, both in the
councils of government and with the public at large.

The Vice President deserves credit for his early recognition of the value
of high speed computing and communication and for his long-term and
consistent articulation of the potential value of the Internet to American
citizens and industry and, indeed, to the rest of the world.


I'll take their opinion on it over that of partisan opponents, thanks.

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:59 pm
by Audrey2Katrina
I found the article to be complete trash, not unlike similar articles that try to debunk the theory of evolution.


an opinion to which you (and anyone else) are entitled.

Frankly, I find Gore's sensationalist/alarmist effort at the big screen to fit into the same category.

Additionaly, just in the name of fair balance, Gore is often misquoted as claiming to have "invented" the internet. He DID make the quote above cited, that he "took the intiative in creating the internet"... doubtless a bit of less than modest self-aggrandizement--which most politicians tend to do-- but not altogether what many try to make it. JMHO.

A2K

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:08 pm
by Janice
Yes, there are many different opinions from scientists on this topic. Of course, he will pick the one which will help his cause.

This is the same on anything else. Opinions, surveys and studies are like you know what, everyone has them. Studies are published every day around the world and no one agrees on the same thing.

You will just grab on to the one that benefits your cause.

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:18 pm
by FunkMasterB
Frankly, I find Gore's sensationalist/alarmist effort at the big screen to fit into the same category.


I haven't seen Gore's movie, but I think Al Gore is just about the last place I'd look to when it comes to scientific information. However, there are places that I do look to for such information, and all of these sources pretty much are in agreement that global warming is occurring and is at least partially man made. The skeptics in the scientific community are becoming fewer and fewer but there will always be some.

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:27 pm
by cognosco
Janice wrote:Yes, there are many different opinions from scientists on this topic. Of course, he will pick the one which will help his cause.

This is the same on anything else. Opinions, surveys and studies are like you know what, everyone has them. Studies are published every day around the world and no one agrees on the same thing.

You will just grab on to the one that benefits your cause.


Science works by peer review. A lot of the opposition to Global Warming is not peer reviewed and consequently not science. On the other hand an overwhelming amount of peer reviewed information is available supporting Global Warming and human influence over it.

Science isn't a belief system its a process.

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:38 pm
by Janice
Then in this case, you would think the whole world as a whole, would stop now and clean up their act. But, why are they not doing it? It just doesn't seem to be a priority. They talk a lot about it, but time goes on and we do not see much.

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:39 pm
by cognosco
The world isn't run rationally.

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:19 pm
by Audrey2Katrina
Science works by peer review.


Science is a lot more than peer review; but that's how a lot of it takes place. Fortunately neither science, nor peer review is infallible. The truth is the truth whether science or peer review suggests otherwise or not. The consensus, while appreciable, is by no means unanimous--even among "scientists".

A2K

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:59 pm
by jasons2k
x-y-no wrote:But then the author falls into the same trap - citing a series of geologists to support his contention that there's nothing to AGW. Well sorry, but gelogists, while possibly (but not neccesarily) having some connection to paleoclimatology, are not notably climate scientists either. And there is a substantial consensus among climate scientists that AGW is real.


I disagree there is a substantial consensus. There are two very distinct, very differing opinions on the subject. Plus a lot of people "in the middle," like myself, who accept that AGW is indeed a plausible possibility but is scientifically unproven. That's not a consensus. I have no idea what the breakup is, I've never "polled" any climate scientists to see where they stand. But for the sake of argument - let's be very generous and say 9/10 believe AGW is real. So you have 9 scientists saying one thing and another lone scientist saying something else. As Copernicus taught us, that doesn't anything. All that matters is the truth. The lone scientist could be the one who grasps it.

x-y-no wrote: Oh, and, I'd hardly call this article devoid of political spin. It's in fact entirely one-sided. And tell me, does Gore truly say that AGW is going to be "the end of civilization" or is that not exaggeration (i.e. political spin)?


I don't know if he says it in the movie or not, but I can't find the exerpt anywhere in the article I posted. The only "spin" I see in the article is one sentence near the end where the author quotes Carter. The rest is mostly quotes from scientists that contradict erroneous statements made by Gore. Here is an example case & point from the article:

Gore tells us in the film, "Starting in 1970, there was a precipitous drop-off in the amount and extent and thickness of the Arctic ice cap." This is misleading, according to Ball: "The survey that Gore cites was a single transect across one part of the Arctic basin in the month of October during the 1960s when we were in the middle of the cooling period. The 1990 runs were done in the warmer month of September, using a wholly different technology."

I don't see how that's spin. Ball is simply setting the record straight. The facts are the facts. Regardless of Gore's viewpoint, he's not making a proper comparative analysis. His "control group" doesn't meet the standard of a 7th grade science lab. To me, "spin" or not, it's still nothing more than junk science.

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:17 pm
by FunkMasterB
Ball is simply setting the record straight. The facts are the facts.


And why are you so quick to assume Ball is getting it right here? Who is he? Why should we believe him? You seem to be taking everything he asserts in the article as fact. Why is that?

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:27 pm
by FunkMasterB
I disagree there is a substantial consensus.


From the article I linked. Did you read it?

The American Geophysical Union and American Meteorological Society in 2003 both declared that signs of global warming had become compelling.

In 2004 the American Association for the Advancement of Science said that there was no longer any "substantive disagreement in the scientific community" that artificial global warming is happening.

In 2005, the National Academy of Sciences joined the science academies of Britain, China, Germany, Japan and other nations in a joint statement saying, "There is now strong evidence that significant global warming is occurring."

This year Mr. Karl of the climatic data center said research now supports "a substantial human impact on global temperature increases."

And this month the Climate Change Science Program, the Bush administration's coordinating agency for global-warming research, declared it had found "clear evidence of human influences on the climate system."


You don't consider that to be a substantial consensus?

So you have 9 scientists saying one thing and another lone scientist saying something else. As Copernicus taught us, that doesn't anything. All that matters is the truth. The lone scientist could be the one who grasps it


Well, that's an impossibly high standard to have for any scientific theory. And technically, science doesn't deal in absolute truths, as absolute truths can never be known.

When dealing with something so critically important as global warming and human causes of it, we really can't afford to wait for every scientist to agree, because that will never happen. We have to go by what the concensus is, and I think we are at enough of a consensus to act. And what's the downside if we act and are wrong? We needlessly curtail some of our pollution and impact on the environment? I can live with that.

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:57 pm
by jasons2k
According to the article, Dr. Ball is former University of Winnipeg climatology professor. And to answer your other question, it doesn't take much to convince me he's more of an expert in this than Mr. Gore. :wink: