ATL: IRMA - Post-Tropical - Discussion

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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7041 Postby HurricaneBelle » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:06 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Hurrilurker wrote:
superdeluxe wrote:I'm going to say the east track is a bit worse because it brings the core back out over water for a significant period of time before 2nd landfall. But the west track would cause more devastation in heavily-populated Orlando.


If it goes up the spine, Orlando wouldn't get devastating winds would it? We just moved from there and have a fair number of friends I need to start working on if this is predicted to hold together bizarrely well over land.


Right now Orlando is forecast with an 89% chance of low-end (40 MPH) tropical storm force winds, a 64% of high-end (58 MPH) tropical storm force winds, and a 42% chance of hurricane-force winds. So yes Orlando will get a long period of tropical storm force winds (which do enough damage in their own right) and a good chance of seeing hurricane force winds as well based on the current track which is inland of the FL East coast. If the forecast is shifted a bit further west, the high-end TS winds and hurricane winds probabilities would increase.
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7042 Postby SEASON_CANCELED » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:06 pm

HurricaneRyan wrote:My Dad is evacuating to Tampa with my half-sister. What affects should they expect?



Alot of tampa is evacuating aswell. some areas in Pinellas is under mandatory evac. We don't know the effects yet. based on current path you are looking at Cat 2 winds for an hour thats what they were saying on Fox13 earlier

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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7043 Postby johngaltfla » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:08 pm

Soon enough, I'll lose my internet and cell phone access, so here's a post-storm point to remember:

1. The loss of life could be terrifying and sadly, historic from Irma. Despite the warnings, there are some hard core "I survived Andrew" types who didn't endure storm surge and laugh this storm off. I fear that the current track would be devastating.

2. This could be an economy buster.

Even if you're not a Floridian, between Harvey and Irma, this could break the US economy with easily over $500 billion in damage and lost economic production. The losses to people who have vacation homes and time shares down here could by monsterous also.

3. The boom we've had since 2006 will end driving people from Florida. Once enough people survive a Cat 3/4 like this one, they will leave and head back north.

To all my friends who survived in the BVI, we'll try to send help when this is over. Right now, we have to help our next door neighbor, literally, I am afraid.

Godspeed gang, it's about to get real
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Main Recon Thread (Data only)

#7044 Postby Sciencerocks » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:08 pm

000
URNT15 KNHC 072306
AF309 1811A IRMA HDOB 15 20170907
225630 1938N 07000W 6970 03148 0054 +092 +045 186048 048 /// /// 03
225700 1938N 07001W 6963 03155 0042 +101 +042 187042 047 /// /// 03
225730 1939N 07003W 6967 03152 0043 +100 +045 188036 037 /// /// 03
225800 1940N 07005W 6965 03157 0046 +100 +035 187034 036 030 000 03
225830 1941N 07007W 6966 03154 0050 +097 +036 193033 035 033 002 00
225900 1942N 07008W 6969 03149 0057 +088 +045 195030 032 031 003 00
225930 1944N 07010W 6965 03152 0060 +082 +053 203034 037 031 002 00
230000 1945N 07011W 6966 03148 0057 +083 +058 202037 039 031 002 00
230030 1946N 07012W 6963 03151 0058 +081 +058 206041 043 031 002 00
230100 1948N 07014W 6967 03143 0047 +088 +060 206041 042 035 001 00
230130 1949N 07015W 6966 03143 0044 +090 +061 205042 043 035 002 00
230200 1950N 07017W 6969 03137 0042 +090 +059 202044 044 035 001 00
230230 1952N 07018W 6967 03137 0038 +090 +053 201043 045 034 001 00
230300 1953N 07019W 6965 03140 0046 +083 +057 202041 042 036 002 00
230330 1954N 07021W 6966 03136 0061 +071 +057 205039 041 037 006 00
230400 1956N 07022W 6968 03135 0045 +081 +057 203041 041 036 006 00
230430 1957N 07024W 6963 03137 0038 +086 +048 207043 044 037 004 00
230500 1958N 07025W 6969 03127 0038 +084 +050 209044 045 040 004 00
230530 2000N 07026W 6966 03129 0039 +081 +049 204047 050 039 004 00
230600 2001N 07028W 6966 03126 0042 +076 +052 203048 050 039 003 00
$$
;
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7045 Postby Langinbang187 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:09 pm

With the size of this thing unless something drastically changes I can't see how this thing doesn't produce 20+ foot storm surge in FL.
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7046 Postby RL3AO » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:09 pm

Audio update from Michael Brennan. Nothing that isn't in the advisory.

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/audio/201709072105.mp3
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7047 Postby johngaltfla » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:09 pm

SEASON_CANCELED wrote:
HurricaneRyan wrote:My Dad is evacuating to Tampa with my half-sister. What affects should they expect?



Alot of tampa is evacuating aswell. some areas in Pinellas is under mandatory evac. We don't know the effects yet. based on current path you are looking at Cat 2 winds for an hour thats what they were saying on Fox13 earlier

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Depending on the track. We could experience Cat 2 sustained with Cat 3 gusts. It is not going to be fun.
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7048 Postby meriland29 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:10 pm

Does anyone have any current recon info in terms of strength atm?
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7049 Postby HurricaneBelle » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:11 pm

My last post reminds me that for all the people who keep asking "what kind of winds should I get where I live?", the NHC has a Wind Speed Probabilities product that never seems to get any traction on this board, making me wonder how many people really know about it. It covers all of the decent-sized coastal and inland locations so odds are you're close to one of these points, and it tells you your chances of getting TS or Hurricane force winds in total, or over a given 24-hour period.

It's can be found at http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/text/refresh/MI ... 2058.shtml
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7050 Postby tropicwatch » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:11 pm

Recon by Puerto Rico on the way. :uarrow:
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7051 Postby tolakram » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:11 pm

meriland29 wrote:Does anyone have any current recon info in terms of strength atm?


Not quite there yet?

Image
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7052 Postby SunnyThoughts » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:12 pm

meriland29 wrote:Does anyone have any current recon info in terms of strength atm?



Plane is enroute now.
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7053 Postby sweetpea » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:12 pm

We have lived all over Florida...Orlando, Miami and the Daytona area for 20 years. We have ALOT of friends and family in the path of this storm.My heart is breaking over this storm. Just wanted to send my prayers, thoughts and hope that everyone stays safe. It will be a long few days.
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7054 Postby Pughetime12 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:14 pm

Blown Away wrote:Image
Image
Irma N of the track for now...


Is it true what a poster recently said that the satellite might be off as it showed different coordinates than what the NHC reported for their 5 PM coordinates?
Last edited by Pughetime12 on Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7055 Postby jasons2k » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:14 pm

Aric Dunn wrote:
Aric Dunn wrote:
jasons wrote:
Respectfully disagree. There was a very lengthy (and well-cited) writeup last night on AmericanWx about it that settled this debate.


Good to know.. lets see it ? Its also not last night anymore.


New image. Inner eye is nearly gone now.. no doubt an erc is about done.

Image


OK, I'll give credit where credit is due :-) This one is pretty clear now, yes, an actual ERC is completing. That's what I get for reading posts without checking the storm!! My apologies for any confusion.
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7056 Postby superdeluxe » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:15 pm

Is it a bit irresponsible for this promet to be posting this?

it feels a bit hyperbolic

@RyanMaue
Based on size of Hurricane #Irma + Category 4/5 landfall winds/surge & track up I-75 to Atlanta, are we contemplating a Trillion $ disaster?
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7057 Postby Hurrilurker » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:15 pm

My guess is 916mb.
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7058 Postby Aric Dunn » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:16 pm

jasons wrote:
Aric Dunn wrote:
jasons wrote:
Respectfully disagree. There was a very lengthy (and well-cited) writeup last night on AmericanWx about it that settled this debate.


Good to know.. lets see it ? Its also not last night anymore.



OK, I re-read this. I must apologize as I was tired last night. Apparently she was undergoing some type of ERCs but not what we typically see:

OK.. So this has been bothering me the whole night. Therefore i spent the past three hours working and researching eyewall replacement cycle s (ERC) . I will preference with this: ERC are very poorly understood and research on them is just beginning. However, I found a theory about ERC which not only makes sense, but I was likewise able to extrapolate an answer for which I believe fits why these ERC are doing nothing to weaken Irma.

Terms:

ERC : Eyewall replacement cycle. HBL : Hurricane boundary layer. NRF : Net radial force. PGF : Pressure Gradient Force.

I will also preferance with the fact that I view weather as the earth's immune system and really all weather is is an attempt for the atmosphere to find an equilibrium (much like our immune system is to bring homeostasis to the body).

So let's get to it. ERC, in this theory, are believed to take place due to a set of complicated physics. As a hurricane is born, there are three main components, physics wise, which make up the storm (at least as it pertains to ERC). The first is the HBL which extends approximately 1 km into the atmosphere, from the surface. It interacts with most of the surface friction. The second is the PGF, which essentially forces particles from areas of higher density (pressure) to areas of lower pressure. The last is known as the NRF, which is essentially the force directed towards the center of a rotating mass.

As a hurricane develops, these forces work with each other and eventually, when the storm reaches a certain intensity, an excess of NRF creates a secondary wind maximum approximately 40-60km from the center of the hurricane. This secondary wind maximum is always believed to be because the HBL cannot properly maintain a balance of angular momentum (or the acceleration of particles/mass in a circulation motion), or in other words, the HBL cannot keep the particles separated in such a way that the pressure and buildup of particles remain uniform. This, combined with a positive NRF, creates convergence. This convergence creates an up welling which then leads to a secondary maximum. This secondary maximum, in turn, creates more PGF (the force of a particle over a given area. The higher the PGF, due to more particles in a smaller area, the higher the winds). Eventually, this leads to enough of a convergence that a secondary eyewall is formed and two wind maxima are thus created. As many know, during this time, the overall windspeed of the maximum sustained winds decrease due to the maximum winds being spread out over a larger area and thus the wind speed lowers (or.. The PGF is distributed over a larger area and therefore while the mass remains the same, because force equals mass times acceleration, acceleration is lower and therfore the force or net wind speed decreases). Eventually, the PGF, combined with angular momentum, will coerce the outer eyewall to contract, thus ending the ERC. At this time, the winds will increase as will the overall size of the wind field of the storm, while allowing the hurricane to likewise strengthen.

But the question that's plagues me today is why has Irma skipped this weakening phase of the ERC and likewise why has she been constantly cycling through them and having them take place in a rapid fashion? What I propose is this. Irma has been in essentially a perfect, or lab like environment, for her lifespan. This is what is allowing her to explosively deepen and shatter records. What I likewise propose is this. Irma is showing us that hurricanes create ERC of their own accord. In other words, an ERC has nothing to do with outside influences and is strictly because of the mechanism of the hurricane itself (and the strengthening mechanisms within). Likewise, because ERC are part of the hurricanes overall structure, in theory, it should not hurt the hurricane, but rather, help it. Left to its own devices, this is what Irma is doing. It's part of a necessary strengthening cycle for well developed hurricanes. The HBL, I propose, creates the issue for ERC as within this layer, there is friction. This friction slows the contraction of the secondary eyewall and forces the storm to balance itself out to preserve itself, while it deals with the friction and the effects of it. Because Irma is in a lab like environment, the friction of the ocean is essentially non existant as it is over flat and incredibly warm water. Likewise, there is no sheer or dry air to interfere with the Core and venting mechanisms of Irma. As such, these ERC can begin and complete without any interference and then, once the outer wind maxima are mature, the PGF and angular momentum can allow the outer wind maxima to contract, replacing the old eyewall and thus completing the ERC, in time for it to build and start once again. Therefore, she can bypass any weakening state that the friction within the HBL would cause, as, essentially, there isn't any to speak of.

This, of course, is strictly a theory

Source:
https://www.americanwx.com/bb/topic/502 ... /?page=182

And this analysis from LEK threw me off:
For the love of God....there has been and there is no indication of an ERC. As long as the outer eyewall attaches occasionally to the IEW (transporting angular momentum inward), you will not see the IEW contract. Concentric eyewalls can be very stable, as long as they remain far enough apart, as to not rob the IEW of surface "energy"....as a matter of fact, if the IEW remains very stout...an outer eyewall will struggle to "take over"...that's where we are at now...

You can clearly see the OEW is "connecting" occasionally to the IEW....this ENHANCES the strength of the IEW....when the connection happens, you often will see a slight deterioration of part of the IEW. I bet in a bit, you see one large eyewall....not necessarily an EWRC...more of an EW "enhancement" cycle...


Source: https://www.americanwx.com/bb/topic/502 ... /?page=180


Interesting read. But more research needs to be done. Maybe ill do it ..
Last edited by Aric Dunn on Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7059 Postby wxmann_91 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:16 pm

Pughetime12 wrote:
Blown Away wrote:[i mg]https://i.imgur.com/TKrT4UV.gif[/img]
[i mg]https://i.imgur.com/u7Hz1aP.jpg[/img]
Irma N of the track for now...


Is it true what a poster recently said that the satellite might be wrong as it showed different coordinates than what the NHC reported on their 5 PM heading?


Yes... we saw that when Irma passed through Barbuda. Radar showed a direct hit while satellite showed it being north.
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Re: ATL: IRMA - Hurricane - Discussion

#7060 Postby Evil Jeremy » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:16 pm

SEASON_CANCELED wrote:turnpike is overwhelmed. would advise to use back roads


I love the back roads for evacuations. Used them to get far from Jacksonville/Matthew last year (and back). They're generally empty, more peaceful, and you get to see new sights.
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