Israel thread #2

[Audrey2Katrina]

IDF: Hizbullah preventing civilians from leaving villages in southern Lebanon

This is because Hezbollah WANTS a high civillian body count-- so that. ummm, certain News outlets will continue to play up those "mean" Israelis killing innocent civilians. Using these civilians as their personal shields is reprehensible, and EVERY news source should be willing to call it that.

A2K

[fwbbreeze]

CNN = Constantly Negative News

On the subject at hand, it has been blatently obvious ever since the start of war in Iraq that these terrorist organizations want high civillian casualties. The more civillians killed or wounded the more bad press organizations like CNN, MSNBC, NPR Radio, etc throw out at the United States, Great Britian, and Israel.

fwbbreeze

[NBCintern]

IDF: Hizbullah preventing civilians from leaving villages in southern Lebanon

This is because Hezbollah WANTS a high civillian body count-- so that. ummm, certain News outlets will continue to play up those "mean" Israelis killing innocent civilians. Using these civilians as their personal shields is reprehensible, and EVERY news source should be willing to call it that.

A2K

Umm, have you taken a look at the death ratio. What is seems to me is that the Hezbollah are striking specific targets. While the Isrealis are targeting whom ever is in the way. Pat Buchana said it best "The Israelis killing innocent civilians and Hezbollah militants as a collective people. The Israeli's have a right to defend, but do not group a group to the whole."

[artist]

my take as well - just verifies their mission...

[Audrey2Katrina]

Hezbollah are striking specific targets.

You ARE joking, Right??? Ummm.. I mean even if you watch CNN you simply HAVE to have noticed that all Hezbollah has been doing is raining missiles helter-skelter on ANY target they can reach around Haifa--or elsewhere. Were they "specifically targeting" their own when they hit Nazareth earlier today, including two children?? ... now unless their "specific targets" have been civilian areas... I dunno... in that respect you might have a point, otherwise this is just patently absurd.

Umm, have you taken a look at the death ratio.

Ummm. had we worried about this, we'd have never seen WWII to its actual "desired" outcome. Ratios have little to do with the motive behind their actions. And excuse me but quoting Pat Buchanan is, IMO, really laughable. I won't get into why... for obvious reasons... but it IS laughable.

With your reasoning we could have never bombed Germany OR Japan into submission in order to end WWII... and I notice you've NEVER addressed this with any of that high-sounding philosophical mumbo-jumbo. War IS hell--but may the GOOD prevail! And that AIN'T Hezbollah!

A2K

[fwbbreeze]

IDF: Hizbullah preventing civilians from leaving villages in southern Lebanon

This is because Hezbollah WANTS a high civillian body count-- so that. ummm, certain News outlets will continue to play up those "mean" Israelis killing innocent civilians. Using these civilians as their personal shields is reprehensible, and EVERY news source should be willing to call it that.

A2K

Umm, have you taken a look at the death ratio. What is seems to me is that the Hezbollah are striking specific targets. While the Isrealis are targeting whom ever is in the way. Pat Buchana said it best "The Israelis killing innocent civilians and Hezbollah militants as a collective people. The Israeli's have a right to defend, but do not group a group to the whole."

Do what???? The is no rhyme or reason to Hezbollah's targeting. Just pick a spot and fire...who cares where it lands. This is what I am getting from the news outlets any one else disagree? Israel is being VERY precise in their targeting, unfortunately civilians are being used as shields for Hezbollah and in this war they WILL become causalities.

fwbbreeze

[x-y-no]

What is seems to me is that the Hezbollah are striking specific targets.

As far as I can see, Hezbollah is hitting whatever they're able to hit.

While the Isrealis are targeting whom ever is in the way.

Israel looks to me to be using air power to pin Hezbollah down in the south in preparation for going in on the ground and engaging them directly.

Despite the rhetoric, air power alone can't possibly do this job. I'm sure the Israelis know that.

Pat Buchana said it best "The Israelis killing innocent civilians and Hezbollah militants as a collective people. The Israeli's have a right to defend, but do not group a group to the whole."

While I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, it's really hard to see how the Israelis can do anything effective against Hezbollah without rather severely impacting innocent Lebanese. That's a tragic consequence of the fact that Hezbollah has successfully occupied southern Lebanon for quite some time.

I don't know that Israel's strategy will work, and I'm afraid that (as with so much of recent history in the region) the party that benefits most from all this will be Iran, but I'm hard-pressed to come up with a different strategy they ought to pursue instead.

[southerngale]

NBCintern, why do you keep defending Hezbollah? They're terrorists. You've blamed Israel for all of this, defended Hezbollah numerous times, and even said the 9/11 terrorist attacks were the fault of AMERICANS. I'm getting quite creeped out by your stance on things.

[sunny]

Jan summed it up well for me.

Look, I am not a cold hearted witch, I don't like seeing innocent Lebanese people suffering. I see the pictures of the children with pure fright on their faces, or the ones of the little boys in the hospital and it hurts my heart. But I place responsibility on Hezbollah - completely and totally. Hezbollah crossed the border into Israel and attacked them. Hezbollah crossed the border into Israel and kidnapped their soldiers.

[NBCintern]

Hezbollah are striking specific targets.

You ARE joking, Right??? Ummm.. I mean even if you watch CNN you simply HAVE to have noticed that all Hezbollah has been doing is raining missiles helter-skelter on ANY target they can reach around Haifa--or elsewhere. Were they "specifically targeting" their own when they hit Nazareth earlier today, including two children?? ... now unless their "specific targets" have been civilian areas... I dunno... in that respect you might have a point, otherwise this is just patently absurd.

Umm, have you taken a look at the death ratio.

Ummm. had we worried about this, we'd have never seen WWII to its actual "desired" outcome. Ratios have little to do with the motive behind their actions. And excuse me but quoting Pat Buchanan is, IMO, really laughable. I won't get into why... for obvious reasons... but it IS laughable.

With your reasoning we could have never bombed Germany OR Japan into submission in order to end WWII... and I notice you've NEVER addressed this with any of that high-sounding philosophical mumbo-jumbo. War IS hell--but may the GOOD prevail! And that AIN'T Hezbollah!

A2K

What I mean by targeting specific targets, I mean they are just not shooting to shoot. It must be understood that they are have bombs that they cannot input "hit this target like Isreal has", but that they are aiming to disable the Isreali infrastructure." Israel is doing the same, but if you look at the death count, the case can be made that the Israeli's are shooting indiscriminately. With that being said, I quoted Pat because he made sense, I don't like the guy, but that statement made sense if you look at the totality of their actions. I know war is hell, but this isn't war yet. This is just a crisis that will probably end up in war. There were many more players in WWII and you know it. We bombed Japan because of you know what. We made a point and it ended it. Dresden was bombed dramatically, I believe that put Germany on notice. Anyways, there is no good when weapons are used. If you mean the ones with the most deaths loses, then Hezbollah will probably lose.

[kevin]

It must be understood that they are have bombs that they cannot input "hit this target like Isreal has", but that they are aiming to disable the Isreali infrastructure."

Most of your post was rather undecipherable, so if it must be understood could you explain it in a more lucid manner?

[sunny]

It must be understood that they are have bombs that they cannot input "hit this target like Isreal has", but that they are aiming to disable the Isreali infrastructure."

Most of your post was rather undecipherable, so if it must be understood could you explain it in a more lucid manner?

Or explain how they managed to target AND hit an Israeli naval vessel?

[artist]

you can't tell me those 2 countries don't consider it war?

[NBCintern]

NBCintern, why do you keep defending Hezbollah? They're terrorists. You've blamed Israel for all of this, defended Hezbollah numerous times, and even said the 9/11 terrorist attacks were the fault of AMERICANS. I'm getting quite creeped out by your stance on things.

I am not defending anyone. I am just analyzing both sides. I do not blame Israel for what is happening. I think what truly brought this out was way back when Ariel Sharon visited a palestenian holy site that the palestinians told him not to go. He went anway and a crisis ensued. Thereafter, Israel punished the palestenians for the ensuing violence. Mr. Sharon did this before with the same results. What did we do? We blamed the palestenians for enciting violence. I truly believe that is the starting trigger for all of this. It probable goes deeper, but I think this was the triggering point. 9/11 won't go there.

[NBCintern]

Jan summed it up well for me.

Look, I am not a cold hearted witch, I don't like seeing innocent Lebanese people suffering. I see the pictures of the children with pure fright on their faces, or the ones of the little boys in the hospital and it hurts my heart. But I place responsibility on Hezbollah - completely and totally. Hezbollah crossed the border into Israel and attacked them. Hezbollah crossed the border into Israel and kidnapped their soldiers.

KIDNAPPING YES, BOMBING I BELIEVE ISRAEL DID FIRST.

[sunny]

Jan summed it up well for me.

Look, I am not a cold hearted witch, I don't like seeing innocent Lebanese people suffering. I see the pictures of the children with pure fright on their faces, or the ones of the little boys in the hospital and it hurts my heart. But I place responsibility on Hezbollah - completely and totally. Hezbollah crossed the border into Israel and attacked them. Hezbollah crossed the border into Israel and kidnapped their soldiers.

KIDNAPPING YES, BOMBING I BELIEVE ISRAEL DID FIRST.

They were attacked. What would you have them do, sit on their thumbs? Let the terrorist write the rules?

[Audrey2Katrina]

I quoted Pat because he made sense, I don't like the guy, but that statement made sense

Ohh, I see... even if I don't like someone whom I think someone else might like, I'll cherry pick one of their quotes in the hopes it'll lend credibility to my argument? Doesn't wash.

There were many more players in WWII and you know it. We bombed Japan because of you know what. We made a point and it ended it. Dresden was bombed dramatically, I believe that put Germany on notice. Anyways, there is no good when weapons are used.

I'm sorry; but that made absolutely no sense whatsoever. And you didn't in any way counter the analogy that sometimes "civilians" are tragically killed when two parties are warring against each other. I repeat: YOUR mentality seems to suggest that we shouldn't have bombed those German or Japanese cities because of the UNDOUBTED and DOCUMENTED countless thousands of "civilian casualties"... it had to be done to root out and destroy an EVIL. Hezbollah is an EVIL... and Israel is doing what it feels is its only option to prevent that EVIL from realizing its ultimate and publicly proclaimed objective: and that is the annihilation of Israel. It's called self defense.

A2K

[NBCintern]

What is seems to me is that the Hezbollah are striking specific targets.

As far as I can see, Hezbollah is hitting whatever they're able to hit.

While the Isrealis are targeting whom ever is in the way.

Israel looks to me to be using air power to pin Hezbollah down in the south in preparation for going in on the ground and engaging them directly.

Despite the rhetoric, air power alone can't possibly do this job. I'm sure the Israelis know that.

Pat Buchana said it best "The Israelis killing innocent civilians and Hezbollah militants as a collective people. The Israeli's have a right to defend, but do not group a group to the whole."

While I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, it's really hard to see how the Israelis can do anything effective against Hezbollah without rather severely impacting innocent Lebanese. That's a tragic consequence of the fact that Hezbollah has successfully occupied southern Lebanon for quite some time.

I don't know that Israel's strategy will work, and I'm afraid that (as with so much of recent history in the region) the party that benefits most from all this will be Iran, but I'm hard-pressed to come up with a different strategy they ought to pursue instead.

I agree Hezbollah is hitting where they can. Actually, I agree with everything you said. The Israeli's have no choice but to pound the ground, which they will suffer massive casualties. However, are they going to go home like they did in the 80's with nothing. They have to finish it and that will be difficult, if not impossible. They didn't defeat Hezbollah in the past and I doubt they will this time without some help.

[southerngale]

Jan summed it up well for me.

Look, I am not a cold hearted witch, I don't like seeing innocent Lebanese people suffering. I see the pictures of the children with pure fright on their faces, or the ones of the little boys in the hospital and it hurts my heart. But I place responsibility on Hezbollah - completely and totally. Hezbollah crossed the border into Israel and attacked them. Hezbollah crossed the border into Israel and kidnapped their soldiers.

KIDNAPPING YES, BOMBING I BELIEVE ISRAEL DID FIRST.

They were attacked. What would you have them do, sit on their thumbs? Let the terrorist write the rules?

I believe he would. Go back to the last few pages of thread #1.

[sunny]

Yeah, I've been reading his responses, Kel. It does almost sound like he is defending the terrorist. Poor Hezbollah, they don't have the technology Israel has. Well maybe they should have thought about that before THEY started this.