Highest sustained windspeed in a hurricane?

[ConvergenceZone]

I'm just curious, what's the strongest sustained wind speed ever reported for an Atlantic hurricane? and does a law
of physics keep a cap on the highest speeds possible with hurricanes?

[Cookiely]

I'm just curious, what's the strongest sustained wind speed ever reported for an Atlantic hurricane? and does a law
of physics keep a cap on the highest speeds possible with hurricanes?

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Subject: E1) Which is the most intense tropical cyclone on record?
Contributed by Chris Landsea

Typhoon Tip in the Northwest Pacific Ocean on 12 October 1979 was measured to have a central pressure of 870 mb and estimated surface sustained winds of 85 m/s (165 kt, 190 mph) (Dunnavan and Diercks 1980). Typhoon Nancy on 12 September, 1961 is listed in the best track data for the Northwest Pacific region as having an estimated maximum sustained winds of 95 m/s (185 kt, 213 mph) with a central pressure of 888 mb. However, it is now recognized (Black 1992) that the maximum sustained winds estimated for typhoons during the 1940s to 1960s were too strong and that the 95 m/s (and numerous 83 to 93 m/s reports) is somewhat too high.

Note that Hurricane Wilma's 882 mb lowest pressure (estimated from a dropsonde) in 2005 is the most intense [as measured by lowest sea level pressure] for the Atlantic basin, it is almost 12 mb weaker (higher) than the above Typhoon Tip of the Northwest Pacific Ocean.

While the central pressures for the Northwest Pacific typhoons are the lowest globally, the North Atlantic hurricanes have provided sustained wind speeds possibly comparable to the Northwest Pacific. From the best track database, Hurricane Camille (1969) and Hurricane Allen (1980) have winds that are estimated to be 85 m/s (165 kt, 190 mph). Measurements of such winds are inherently going to be suspect as instruments often are completely destroyed or damaged at these speeds.

Revised November 28, 2006

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[Frank2]

There was an unofficial 1 minute gust during Hurricane Andrew's landfall in Dade County of 212 mph, but, they couldn't verify the anomometer's accuracy...

The NHC did have a 1 minute gust of 152 knots (175 mph), but, that was on the roof the 12-story building, so, that would need to be reduced at the groud level, however, several cars in their lot were picked up and one ended up balanced on the 18-inch wide top of a 4 foot high low-rise wall (how that happened is a wonder), so, it had to be very strong...

When I worked at the NHC all that "m/s" stuff was a mystery to me (a/k/a very hard to convert) - I have enough of a time converting from knots to mph, though, there is a formula to convert from m/s to kts or mph...

Yipes...

Frank

[Category 5]

When I worked at the NHC all that "m/s" stuff was a mystery to me (a/k/a very hard to convert) - I have enough of a time converting from knots to mph, though, there is a formula to convert from m/s to kts or mph...

You worked at the NHC? Were you the janitor?

[RL3AO]

There was an unofficial 1 minute gust during Hurricane Andrew's landfall in Dade County of 212 mph, but, they couldn't verify the anomometer's accuracy...

The NHC did have a 1 minute gust of 152 knots (175 mph), but, that was on the roof the 12-story building, so, that would need to be reduced at the groud level, however, several cars in their lot were picked up and one ended up balanced on the 18-inch wide top of a 4 foot high low-rise wall (how that happened is a wonder), so, it had to be very strong...

When I worked at the NHC all that "m/s" stuff was a mystery to me (a/k/a very hard to convert) - I have enough of a time converting from knots to mph, though, there is a formula to convert from m/s to kts or mph...

Yipes...

Frank

Just multiply m/s by two and thats about what it is in knots.

[DanKellFla]

Just from what I know about aerodynamics, I think that the highest theoretical windspeed is around a third of the speed of sound. After that, compression effects and friction become to strong.

[Brent]

When I worked at the NHC all that "m/s" stuff was a mystery to me (a/k/a very hard to convert) - I have enough of a time converting from knots to mph, though, there is a formula to convert from m/s to kts or mph...

You worked at the NHC? Were you the janitor?

!!!!!!!!!

[HurricaneBill]

In terms of wind observations (excluding recon), the highest sustained wind was during the San Felipe/ Lake Okeechobee Hurricane of 1928. When the hurricane struck Puerto Rico, sustained winds of at least 160 mph were recorded before the anemometer was destroyed. (Yes, it was at ground level.)

The highest wind gust observed in a tropical cyclone was 166 kt during two typhoons: Super Typhoon Cora in 1966 and Super Typhoon Ryan in 1995.

[Aslkahuna]

The anemometer that measured the 212 mph gust with Andrew was destroyed but they took an identical make and model type of anemometer and ran it in a wind tunnel test and determined that the reading was high with the actual windspeed being 177 mph. Still under review is the 211 mph gust recorded on Cuba during Gustav.

Steve

[Ptarmigan]

Just from what I know about aerodynamics, I think that the highest theoretical windspeed is around a third of the speed of sound. After that, compression effects and friction become to strong.

The speed of sound depends on the pressure and elevation. Lower pressure means higher elevation. I know at sea level it is 762 mph. A third of 762 mph is 254 mph, which is really high. I know the highest wind speed ever measured was 231 mph on top of Mt. Washington. There was a report of 236 mph in Super Typhoon Paka, which is dubious at best because there was an increase of electric charge at the time. The Hurricane Hunters reported gusts of 235 mph in Rita.

[Aslkahuna]

The 236 mph wind gust report on Guam (Andersen AB) was recorded with a hot wire anemometer which has been shown to give erroneously high gust readings in high wind/heavy rain situations. The sustained winds were much too low to support that kind of wind gust. The same type of wind sensor gave false high readings during Opal in FL as well. The two 166kt wind gusts recorded in typhoons were on Miyako-Jima during Cora in 1966 and on Lanyu Island off Taiwan during Ryan in 1995.

Steve

[Cryomaniac]

There was an unofficial 1 minute gust during Hurricane Andrew's landfall in Dade County of 212 mph, but, they couldn't verify the anomometer's accuracy...

The NHC did have a 1 minute gust of 152 knots (175 mph), but, that was on the roof the 12-story building, so, that would need to be reduced at the groud level, however, several cars in their lot were picked up and one ended up balanced on the 18-inch wide top of a 4 foot high low-rise wall (how that happened is a wonder), so, it had to be very strong...

When I worked at the NHC all that "m/s" stuff was a mystery to me (a/k/a very hard to convert) - I have enough of a time converting from knots to mph, though, there is a formula to convert from m/s to kts or mph...

Yipes...

Frank

Just multiply m/s by two and thats about what it is in knots.

All I know is that 13.333 m/s is 30mph...

[DanKellFla]

Just from what I know about aerodynamics, I think that the highest theoretical windspeed is around a third of the speed of sound. After that, compression effects and friction become to strong.

The speed of sound depends on the pressure and elevation. Lower pressure means higher elevation. I know at sea level it is 762 mph. A third of 762 mph is 254 mph, which is really high. I know the highest wind speed ever measured was 231 mph on top of Mt. Washington. There was a report of 236 mph in Super Typhoon Paka, which is dubious at best because there was an increase of electric charge at the time. The Hurricane Hunters reported gusts of 235 mph in Rita.

Every time I put an equation in a post, I get no response. But, since you seem to want one, here goes.

Mach = SQRT(1.4*R*T)
Where R is a constant and T is the temperature in Kelvin. I even did this from memory. I had to shake the cobwebs loose, but it was there. But, I don't remember what the R is for air.

In any case, somewhere somebody must know the real answer to this question. If anybody is in college, go find the aerodynamics professor and ask him/her/(it?).

[DanKellFla]

See, math = thread death

[Hurricaneman]

Didnt a little island durring hurricane Linda in 1997 record gusts to 235

[gubyw1]

There was an unofficial 1 minute gust during Hurricane Andrew's landfall in Dade County of 212 mph, but, they couldn't verify the anomometer's accuracy...

The NHC did have a 1 minute gust of 152 knots (175 mph), but, that was on the roof the 12-story building, so, that would need to be reduced at the groud level, however, several cars in their lot were picked up and one ended up balanced on the 18-inch wide top of a 4 foot high low-rise wall (how that happened is a wonder), so, it had to be very strong...

When I worked at the NHC all that "m/s" stuff was a mystery to me (a/k/a very hard to convert) - I have enough of a time converting from knots to mph, though, there is a formula to convert from m/s to kts or mph...

Yipes...





Frank

No anemometer would survive a 212 mph gust.. I think the anemometer was tested and the result corrected to 186 mph which is impressive, as for cars upended, even Wilma did that in Miami. The highest reliable wind reading in the US was probably from hurricane Andrew.

"The Coastal Marine Automated Network (C-MAN) station at Fowey Rocks, with platform elevation of 141 ft (43 m), in its last transmission at 4:00 a.m. EDT, August 24, recorded an 8-minute average wind of 142 mph (228 km/h) with a peak gust of 169 mph (272 km/h) shortly before the equipment was destroyed. It is probable that higher winds occurred at Fowey Rocks after the station was destroyed." - Source: Wikipedia

I think a station also recorded an unofficial 173 mph wind gust during hurricane Charley.

[Patrick99]

What's the estimate on the 1935 Labor Day storm?

[fasterdisaster]

ConvergenceZone, the highest max sustained winds in an Atlantic hurricane were 190 mph, in two hurricanes, Hurricane Allen and Hurricane Camille. However some have wondered if Camille's number is accurate, though the official windspeed was 190 mph. Allen was accurate. Wilma and Gilbert are next with 185 mph.

[Frank2]

Category 5,

No, I wasn't the janitor, wise apple (acutally, we didn't even have a janitor, just contract maintenance - that is a government facility, after all)...

I was just kidding about the m/s issue - lighten up, folks....

When I first started there (I was in my mid-20s), I was a bit intimidated by the advanced mathematics that the research staff used, until it became more familar to me...

If I ever had a problem with converting any unit of measure, I could always look up the formula, as they often need to do in aviation, so, while it sounded difficult, to make the conversion is usually easy, as the other posters here said...

Many are interested in the field, but, get discouraged when they hear how much math is needed for a degree in meteorology.

Ironically, in operational meteorology (forecasting) the same forumlae are used over and over at the workplace, so, a person doesn't need to have a degree in mathematics to work in the field - it's a shame, since many have the instincts but not the gift in math, and, per the quote in Twister - "He has the [equipment] but not the instincts" - and we know what happened to Jonas, since meteorology is a lot like farming or fishing - having the instincts is more important that the fancy equipment...

Anyway - the wind speeds in Andrew were very high, that we all agree on...

At this point, I think everyone just hopes for the season to end - it's been a difficult season for many...

Frank

P.S. In case anyone wonders, just for the record - I left the NHC after my parents passed away, since I wanted a more stable home life, away from the very difficult constant rotating shift work that is required there (days to midnights were the worst, since we were often awake for over 24 hours at a time), so, while they were sad to see me leave, it was the right decision...

P.P.S. Actually, I spoke to the NHC last week, and, we might have a dinner coming up, so, it'll will be nice to see all again (especially when it comes to seeing those who worked there during my time), so, it's nice to still be considered a part of the old family, since they were more than just co-workers, but, are also close friends of mine...

[MiamiensisWx]

What's the estimate on the 1935 Labor Day storm?

In the HURDAT database, the 1935 TC's maximum 1-min winds are listed at 140 kt/160 mph. However, based on the gradient balance (courtesy of the narrow TS/hurricane 1-min wind radii), small RMW, pressure gradient, and high ambient pressures, evidence strongly suggests that this TC was underestimated. The TC was rapidly deepening prior to striking the Keys at maximum intensity, with multiple readings below 900 mb on Upper/Lower Matecumbe Keys, Craig Key, and Long Key. It is noted that the TC's wind radii was only slightly larger (in terms of aereal coverage) than Hurricane Charley of 2004 in southwest Florida. Recent preliminary reanalyses have assessed the 1935's peak/landfall intensity at 160 kt/185 mph, which is much more realistic than the HURDAT file. It is possible that maximum 1-min winds may have been as high as 165 kt/190 mph at landfall, as the rapid intensification would imply that strong winds would mix more efficiently to the surface. Wind damage was very severe, with mangroves and existing vegetation defoliated and coconut palms snapped.

In regards to Camille, 145-150 kt (165-175 mph) may be a realistic estimate for its landfall strength in Mississippi. I'm leaning toward 145 kt, personally.