ATL: IAN - Post-Tropical - Discussion

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cheezyWXguy
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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5701 Postby cheezyWXguy » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:14 pm

Meteorcane wrote:One thing I think this event (and many others over the last few years) highlights is that the overwhelming focus on the cone by political officials, emergency managers, and the media needs to stop. In many ways I think the NHC wishes they had not started the cone graphic nearly 2 decades ago, because it is a fairly poor messaging device (since it only focuses on the center track and has a static width based on historical error rather than a dynamic width based on the uncertainty surrounding a particular storm) and has become so popular they can't simply discontinue it. To highlight this fact, portions of Collier county which received significant storm surge were not in the cone for most of the event. A lot of people would chalk this up to track error... but even with a perfect forecast some of these areas (particularly like Marco Island/Everglades city) STILL wouldn't have been in the cone for at least the last few days of the event really highlighting the point that impacts can extend well away from the cone.

This problem is only going to get worse because NHC track forecasts keep improving, this means that in future years the cone width will continue to shrink and consequently it becomes statistically more likely to see significant impacts outside the cone. Now the NWS is aware of the cone's limitations for hazard messaging and has been producing probabilistically based Hurricane Threats and Impacts (HTI) graphics for a few years now which actually give emergency managers/public officials and idea of the "reasonable worst case scenario" (which is what you should plan for). I wish these would get more traction than the cone... or to be honest even the traditional watches and warnings.

Here is an example from early Tuesday morning when the center of the cone was still focused towards Tampa... the surge HTI graphic actually depicts the surge threat quite well, yet only looking at the cone from that advisory you wouldn't be too worried in Collier.

https://i.imgur.com/7Z9KGSz.png

I like the cone, as I think it serves a purpose, but in agreement with the point you made, its popular use exceeds that purpose. I think it would be cool if they had a risk map for impacts that underlaid the cone, showing low/mod/high areas like the way the SPC does for severe weather risks
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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5702 Postby msbee » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:15 pm

Sanibel wrote:Sanibel Causeway had section washed-out...Zero word from island...Chinooks landing at RSW...

My mother died during Ian in the storm...


I am very sorry. My condolences to you and your family.
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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5703 Postby dizzyfish » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:20 pm

Sanibel wrote:Sanibel Causeway had section washed-out...Zero word from island...Chinooks landing at RSW...

My mother died during Ian in the storm...


Oh no, I am so sorry. My sympathies to you and yours.
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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5704 Postby HurricaneBelle » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:21 pm

Meteorcane wrote:One thing I think this event (and many others over the last few years) highlights is that the overwhelming focus on the cone by political officials, emergency managers, and the media needs to stop. In many ways I think the NHC wishes they had not started the cone graphic nearly 2 decades ago, because it is a fairly poor messaging device (since it only focuses on the center track and has a static width based on historical error rather than a dynamic width based on the uncertainty surrounding a particular storm) and has become so popular they can't simply discontinue it. To highlight this fact, portions of Collier county which received significant storm surge were not in the cone for most of the event. A lot of people would chalk this up to track error... but even with a perfect forecast some of these areas (particularly like Marco Island/Everglades city) STILL wouldn't have been in the cone for at least the last few days of the event really highlighting the point that impacts can extend well away from the cone.

This problem is only going to get worse because NHC track forecasts keep improving, this means that in future years the cone width will continue to shrink and consequently it becomes statistically more likely to see significant impacts outside the cone. Now the NWS is aware of the cone's limitations for hazard messaging and has been producing probabilistically based Hurricane Threats and Impacts (HTI) graphics for a few years now which actually give emergency managers/public officials and idea of the "reasonable worst case scenario" (which is what you should plan for). I wish these would get more traction than the cone... or to be honest even the traditional watches and warnings.


I'd like this post twice if I could. I can't stand hearing about "the cone" (or the C-word as I term it) because it really doesn't tell anyone much about where actual impacts are going to take place other than perhaps those associated with the actual core of the hurricane since it's simply based on the projected path of the center. There's no doubt that NHC has created a monster here with it, even though the intentions were good (keeping folks from "focusing on the skinny black line").

Ironically it was Charley which inspired the cone and perhaps it will be Ian which inspires a greater emphasis on probablistic-based graphics.
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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5705 Postby ThunderForce » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:23 pm

Sanibel wrote:Sanibel Causeway had section washed-out...Zero word from island...Chinooks landing at RSW...

My mother died during Ian in the storm...

This is extremely heartbreaking to hear. I'm so sorry for your loss. Prayers for you and your family.
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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5706 Postby DestinHurricane » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:24 pm

Parts of Ft Myers beach look comparable to Mexico Beach in devastation. Very sad situation. If there's any silver lining, we aren't seeing Andrew or Michael type wind damage, but what does that really mean when the surge damage is quite likely worse than either of those.
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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5708 Postby gailwarning » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:26 pm

decgirl66 wrote:I'm so very sorry for your loss Sanibel. My dad passed yesterday as well. My heart and prayers go out to you.


So very sorry.
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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5709 Postby Teban54 » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:26 pm

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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5710 Postby Teban54 » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:29 pm

Teban54 wrote:https://twitter.com/splillo/status/1575528580288610305?t=Gt0ECjleFTC1-q_XtNDfJA&s=19
NHC forecast for the FL landfall point did well when Ian just formed, but above-average errors started with <=96 hrs left until about 36 hours before landfall.

And that's still the best forecast skill that exists today.

 https://twitter.com/splillo/status/1575537160836431872


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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5711 Postby tolakram » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:32 pm

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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5712 Postby Jr0d » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:33 pm

Meteorcane wrote:One thing I think this event (and many others over the last few years) highlights is that the overwhelming focus on the cone by political officials, emergency managers, and the media needs to stop. In many ways I think the NHC wishes they had not started the cone graphic nearly 2 decades ago, because it is a fairly poor messaging device (since it only focuses on the center track and has a static width based on historical error rather than a dynamic width based on the uncertainty surrounding a particular storm) and has become so popular they can't simply discontinue it. To highlight this fact, portions of Collier county which received significant storm surge were not in the cone for most of the event. A lot of people would chalk this up to track error... but even with a perfect forecast some of these areas (particularly like Marco Island/Everglades city) STILL wouldn't have been in the cone for at least the last few days of the event really highlighting the point that impacts can extend well away from the cone.



While are efforts are focused on rescues, and providing shelter for those who lost their homes, hopefully we can learn a lot.


Key West was heavily impacted by Ian and some areas experienced hurricane conditions as well as much higher than expected surge. Key West was never under a hurricane warning and because it was only a "tropical storm" advisory, many did not take storm precautions. It was also never in the cone the 72 hours leading up to the Dry Tortugas landfall.

Largely because of this Monroe county is not included as one of the disaster counties eligible for FEMA personal assistance like a hotel vouchers, however because counties like Pinellas had the hurricane warning, they were already "pre approved" for FEMA help despite having fairly minimal impacts while Monroe County had significant impacts.

I know one of the storm chasers was placing devices to measure surge, that will hopefully help with better predictions for future storms. I noticed on Key West, despite being a tiny island had a large variation of water levels. The north and west side(where the NOAA station is) saw much lower surge than the south facing side that likely saw 2'-3' higher water. If i recall, the weather station measured around 3-4', while the south facing coast with the onshore wind likely seeing surge in the 6' range based on high water marks.
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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5713 Postby hurricaneCW » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:40 pm



Yup the surge is the problem which is why it'll continue to be a problem for the Carolinas
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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5714 Postby StAuggy » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:44 pm

On the latest radar updates I’m seeing the convection located near the very center get stretched out and pulled north/NE. It also appears as if the broader circ center is starting to elongate in the same N/NE direction. Is this a precursor to it’s turn to the N? I guess we will find out shortly
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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5715 Postby underthwx » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:54 pm

I wonder if bridging equipment can be utilized, as a temporary solution to restore access to Sanibel Island? I don't know if this is a viable option, to allow a more timely access to the area, in an effort to help everyone in need...
Last edited by underthwx on Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5716 Postby cheezyWXguy » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:59 pm

Despite lacking an inner core, Ian is probably a hurricane again now. Looking at radar, velocities are >80mph in that band on the coast, even where the beam height is only about 1000 feet up
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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5717 Postby Old-TimeCane » Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:03 pm

wx98 wrote:
hohnywx wrote:The surge forecast for Charleston, SC, has been raised to 4-7 feet. That area floods during elevated high tides. Going to be significant if that comes to fruition.

Yeah, this may be a very serious event from Charleston to Wilmington and not too many people are paying attention.


I'm definitely paying attention. I'm just inland from Myrtle Beach in Conway. I've been alerting friends and family that we may well have a hurricane coming in.
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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5718 Postby toad strangler » Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:04 pm



The Florida Code has been recalibrated many times since it’s inception. Great tweet though. I’m a firm believer in the FBC
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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5719 Postby Teban54 » Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:14 pm

Regarding intensifying hurricanes in the face of shear:
 https://twitter.com/TropicalTidbits/status/1575500477122641921



 https://twitter.com/TropicalTidbits/status/1575502676745682946



 https://twitter.com/AndyHazelton/status/1575542726418116608



 https://twitter.com/sezick/status/1575535033779163148




The top of this long chain also contains interesting discussions on the forecast and public outreach.
Last edited by Teban54 on Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATL: IAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5720 Postby Steve » Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:15 pm

decgirl66 wrote:I'm so very sorry for your loss Sanibel. My dad passed yesterday as well. My heart and prayers go out to you.


Sorry.
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