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Arizwx
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#41 Postby Arizwx » Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:15 am

streetsoldier wrote:WidreMann, open your eyes...under the obvious headlines, this is, if not openly, a war of ideologies.

Apparently you are unaware that Islam, particluarly the Wahhabi cult (the same mentality that produced the Taliban and Osama) is the fastest growing religious-based organ in both Europe and America...our inner cities, our prisons have been converted into makeshift "madrasas" (Islamic theological schools), feeding on the "disenfranchised", the poor, criminals, and turning out thousands of hateful, dedicated Muslims who may well be described as an "internal clandestine force" awaiting orders.

This is no "conspiracy" flight of fancy; you know me to be much more than that. This "war" will take many years to finish...and the "enemy" ain't done yet.


Good Morning.
It is 01:15 17APR03,and I had a magnificent evening on Wed.My 3 sons and I shopped,had dinner,did homework,and Meditated,then prayed breifly..The evening wound down with a Guys in the Bathroom shaving lesson for young teens!It was rewarding in it's simplicity and one of the duties charged with a Father to his sons.Insignificant?No.Not at all.This is healthy bonding of Males.I will address the connection to the topic within the latter text.
They are calmly asleep now here,in Dad's small Fortress with Franklin and I with Sentry duty,until Six Bells,when we start the new dawn.We shall,pray before Breakfast.It is correct,moral,ethical and lends perspective to our 'place' on this earth,offering gratitude.It is this PEACE that I have shared with you,that is so important to this conversation.Again,it is relavant to the bonds of Male connectivity.
Why do I mention this?How then,is it relavant?
As Bill states,many fine facts,the simplicity of Islam is what is key.The MALE bond.The MALE dominant teachings.The 'place' of the MALE within the teachings of Islam.It is ancient,unrelenting and not flexible in the FUNDAMENTALIST sect,or Cult that has been resurrected as Bill accurately decribes.This is very important to understand.Tribal and Secular within a United Fundamentalist Movement.We,are conversely more contemporary in our persuations for the most part.We have the Bill of Rights guaranteeing such.They do not,as the newest bastardization of Isalm..a normally beautiful,PEACEFUL dogma has emerged..as Bill mentions to pander to the 'Disenfranchised'.Males.
Afghanistan is a prime example.Rubble upon Rubble is how the Soviets left her.Suffice to say,it is incumbant upon a Muslim to have a son(s)...the Sire's legacy to become proud.Much of that was taken away in the 1920s in the Arab World.Conflicts,upon Euro Colonies of dying Manifesto Destiny Monarchial Europe.Christian...or so they touted.Indeed Bill,the region had not produced any significant bearing of Judeo/Christian fruits,including the Basque quasi Spaniards and Moorish Boors.The instigation of Puppet regimes began in earnest then,in recent history.It was a failure.Euro Judaic Ghettos ala Nazi Germany were replaced by Hebreic 'Zionists' as the Arabs felt more threatened..by 1947-8.Isreal was formed and by some Biblical prophecy,the 'Clock' to the 'End of Times' had been wound and started.The destiny of Arabi and Russia,France and China against the Zionist State of Isreal was to end in the Mother of ALL battles in the Tigres/Euphrates...Valley of Armagheddon.Isreal,to prevail..against all odds with the assistance of God's nation of the 'Eagle'.God the Father,then
appears and forms his Earthly Kingdom of Peace and Tranquility.WE then,according to the teachimgs of the Madrasas are the ENEMY..Christian/Zionist God's will to be Protectorate of Isreal and Ultimate Victor by use of a heavenly Excaliber aimed directly at the heart of Islam!We then,by that logic have two fates.One,is to be forced into Islamic Domination,or Two:Christians..ALL Men,Women Children,exterminated by JIHAD.Hence 09-11-01.Read the Fatwahs preceeding from 1989 on.It is chilling!This may come as a 'revelation'of sorts to some of you.It IS that end to which the 'Enemy' is RESIGNED!When I hear our fellow Americans or friends say:'These "people" are merely hateful of what we HAVE and what they do not"..I cringe.This is secondary to the Enemy Credo and sense of resolve at best.This is where WE are guilty of blind arrogance.Yes,many of the huddled masses have little.The hijackers were not..I repeat NOT poor.Nor ill-educated.Nor lacking in the humiliation at the loss of a once great power base.These are Political statements of the highest order..Socioeconomic in it's underpinnings.It is complex,yet simple.This formula dictates a the most formidable of all enemies.The MALE pride of a time machine in reverse.
Mohammed,indeed recognized Abraham and Jesus..as Prophets.Christians,recognise Jesus as Saviour,and Mohammed as a Prophet!Either way,the players are not disavowed in thier existance or impact.The very fact that each Tribal sect were also proslatised by Mohammed,by force.The Hebrew distinguish the oppposite view and deny 'conversion' and to this day,strongly dismiss this approach,especially the Orthodoxy Rabbitical.Catholisism follows now,after the lessons of the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, a relaxation of any forced Evangelism.It is discouraged.This is a commanlity of Judaism and Catholism.Not so the nuevo Baptist,which was formed,in terms of History,very recently in these early Colonies of N America we call the USA.
This is where Evangelism flourishes,and nowhere else in the World to that extent.It is rebuffed in Ancient Religions as secondary and contrary to the teachings of Mohammed or the Judaic Old Testament,to wit is thier commonality!
The Clerics of Islamic Fundamentalists also view our Cuture as such that WE may infact be,'God's Eagle Nation'..the one which is the impotus..the conduit to Israel's Final Victory in the Final Battle.China and Russia as well,vanquished.This is what the Ayatollah commenced on convicing 55million Iranians of after the Deposed Shaw was released from power.
WE assisted in the protection of the Shaw,giving creedence to the idea that the 'Eagle' nation was the prolitariate of the Zionist's 'Illegal' State.
Oil then,the commodity on both sides of the issue,Russia,China,France,the US,Britain all clamouring.It seems the Euro Policies vs a Proud People of
Arabi,a People that had not won a War in 1,000 yrs..a People that turned away Turkey that of Ottoman Empirical Rule in the CENTER of that valley..at a Place known as BAGHDAD,the Economic Power of the World was reduced to this..leases,oil deals,lines drawn by Euro/Post Czarist Russian Bolshivic Politicals via Cartographers of Cristobal Columbus' ilk.
They had been,summarily..dismissed as a regional culture in the early 20th Century,complete with Missionaries,well wishing and intended..in a Land where people were humbled and humiliated.Then cometh Nasser.
Pride in Egypt.The true form of the Aryian Race,which Hitler had conveniently 'changed' in his twisted descriptions...of Romanesqe Gods of the Rhine and Danube vs Nile,Tigres and Euphrates with Nordic feature,absurd.This is where the ideal 'Playbook' was taken.To incite a people of once greatness now,humiliated to Rise and use any Fundamental
Ideology at the disposal to accomplish a Power hungry self imposed Meglamania.Hitler.Saddam.Osama bin Laden.The same in that the 'usery' of the media or vehicle,twisted and reduced to lowest common denomination,selective in passage,an taking the ultimate 'Sadistic Licence'to reconstruct under thier defintion and translation of text of an otherwise peaceful persuation...to anger and teach hatred,to instill a sense of 'pride' and 'blind renewal' of the Male domination of a land that has been in turmoil for many millinia.
This is the task..to be aware.To expose the scoundrels responsible for this hainus trickery at the expense of the very people to whom it was to Benefit!This exposure to restore Islam to it's peaceful intentions and teachings will require a full overhaul of the Mosque system of the Dominant Wahabbi,based in London.The Fatwah will be then...look in the Mirror.If we,do not see that the reparation and reinstitution of a Peaceful Islamic State,with Men teaching Sons goodness and sharing fine evenings as I did,we will have misrepresented our intentions,unintentionally and forever plunged the region,yet again into a Bitter,Fueding Tribal Morass of Hate Filled young men..without the Tutalage of a Biological Father and his love for them.Madrassas will flourish,built with Usama mindsets from the House of Saud,as they are today..unchecked and bastions of the Rebel Yell of our destruction!!!!!!!!For every one Taliban or Muhajadeen or Hamas
or Al Queda,et evil killed..100,000 or 500,000 train.Millions worlwide.It is estimated that there may be as many as 300million 'disenfranchised' Jihadi
in Africa alone!Incredible odds.That equals or surpasses the entire US Population.Is it then,ludicrous?Unwinnable..this 'War on Terror'???No.
I have laid forth some of the uncut masonry,the building blocks of a new way of Global Harmony.A few pebbles or gravel to mix for a road to the sanity to which we aspire.The rest is left to gather.IF we employ wisdom,not just smart bombs..a return to the divinity of Goodness in Mankind..a respect shown in post WW2 Japan,a reuse of the brilliant 'Marshall-MacCarthur' Plan of Cutural RESPECT...not just GIVING a cup of Water or a bag of Wheat..but knowing the healing effects of restoring a Man's DIGNITY in allowing resources for his Family as he reconstitutes his soul and ability to WORK and EARN that cup of Water of bag of Wheat,whilst becoming actively INVOLVED in repairing the Works and Bulkheads of his Religion to repectability..a renewal of Faith in himself,HIS faith..not an Evangelistic Western Nuevo faith,to which he is utterly unaccustom to.Then and only then can we hope to exterminate the need for Madrasa Hate Factories and win the War on Terror.It starts with One Man,One Family and one Home at a time.The healing must begin with honesty...not superimposing a bandaid on a very deep wound.
It can be done.I believe our President knows this in his heart.
This is Easter Weekend..renewal.Cleansed.The passage to Spring's wonderous resurgence of growth and beauty..the segue to the warmth of Summer.Let it be a time for such men clutched,in the grasped talons of the Very Satan,incarnate in a War Torn region to look upon us as that in and of itself,a saviour..not a conquerer..and rise from the morass of hatred,back to a Kingdom once and long ago that flourished with Art,Music and Peaceful Culture.
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#42 Postby Steve H. » Thu Apr 17, 2003 7:20 am

Many Iraqi people are very confused at the moment; like a twisted and abused child. They need structure in their lives; discipline and trust. This is where God will do his work. Whether by example or discipling, each Iraqi (and everyone else for that matter) has to make his own decision. In order to do that they must become teachable. Remember, these people were living in a society where children turned in their own parents :o Imagine the change that must happen in them to result in opening their minds! Our heavenly father will move us on to what needs to be done. But in the end only He will judge. Yes Christian doctrine states that the only way to the father is thru Christ, and I am A Christian. But only HE will judge righteous judgement. It is HIS will not ours. And I'm pretty darn sure he knows what HIS will is. Delicate question, but good one. We don't have the answers; HE will provide them.
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Derek Ortt

#43 Postby Derek Ortt » Thu Apr 17, 2003 7:43 am

Iraq actually has a fairly large number of Christians. Even Saddam hussien used to give a Christmas message to the people. Tariq Azis himself was a Christian. This won't be as big of a problem here as it would have been in Afghanistan
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#44 Postby Derek Ortt » Thu Apr 17, 2003 7:53 am

Widre, as Christians, it is our job to try and convert them. Under the great Commission. read Matthew 28: 16-20. If we dont try and convert them, it is us who will be held responsible by God. We should be praying every night that th non-believers become believers
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#45 Postby j » Thu Apr 17, 2003 8:08 am

I'm a Christian but there is nothing I hate more than somebody knocking on my door and pushing their religion on me. As soon as I see the bible toteing, suit & tie, children in tow converters heading for my door, I prepare my attitude. I'll open the door, and as politely as I can, inform them I'm Catholic and I'm not interested. Then I shut the door. I hate this with a passion, and find that this is as nice as I can possibly be to them.

Sorry...but to me this is NO different. Leave them the heck alone and let them worship a rock if they want.

I have found that if people are not happy with their denomination, they will on their own, try another.

Derek.....I whole-heartedly agree with you that we should be praying each night for the non-believer to become believers....is THAT what you think the Bible implies by it being our "duty", or "job" to convert them??
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#46 Postby isobar » Thu Apr 17, 2003 8:57 am

As Christians today, the most effective way to draw others to Christ is to reflect His image in our lives. Only God can prepare their hearts to receive His message. Only then will they seek the answer to the peace and hope we have.
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#47 Postby WidreMann » Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:00 am

How do you guys know you are right?

Satan could have created the Bible and it could be Satan with whom you believe you have a relationship. Since Satan is obviously a much more powerful being than any and all of us, this would be an easy task. On top of it, we would have no way of knowing, especially with this kind of blind faith going on.

One must be careful.
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#48 Postby j » Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:40 am

geeeeeeeeeezzz.
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#49 Postby Arizwx » Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:45 am

WidreMann wrote:How do you guys know you are right?

Satan could have created the Bible and it could be Satan with whom you believe you have a relationship. Since Satan is obviously a much more powerful being than any and all of us, this would be an easy task. On top of it, we would have no way of knowing, especially with this kind of blind faith going on.

One must be careful.


Still using inflammatory rhetoric are you not Widre?Remember your 'other' thread regarding a 'Nicely Placed Nuke'?Have you not learned your lesson in thinking before you 'speak' so to speak?
Think Widre.Think.Your postulate is extremely sophomoric in nature,undeveloped and lacks supportive statement.It sounds like a Middle Schooler being 'difficult' at the dinner table.Well,'Gee dad,what if..(fill in the rant du jour).Possibly you could be a part time writer for 'SouthPark'with this 'Devil's'Advocate baiting.
This thread is not about your misgivings,or your search,or Christians or Jews or Buddhists 'Proving' anything,other than the fact that Dogma is involved in Iraq,and the Arab World,and has been a Centre point of Culture for Thousands of years.One cannot dismiss fact.
Moreover,if you want 'proof' there is plenty to go around..IF one's heart and soul are open..this is a lock that you and you alone must decide to find a key to.Your choice.
Did you take the time to read my response earlier in this thread?Did you learn anything?Methinks not.
I respect your Agnostic stance,and will not argue your right.But Widre,to use your 'logic'..what if you are wrong?
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#50 Postby Derek Ortt » Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:03 pm

J,

We should make them aware of Christ in Iraq, those who do not know, but do not force it down their throats. We here know about Islam, but have chosen to follow Christianity. Maybe not everyone ther ehas heard about Christianity and what it really stands for. We should make them aware, but definately not force it down their throats at all.

yes, prayer is an effective way to help spread the gospel
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#51 Postby j » Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:12 pm

Educate and make them aware so they can make an informed decision..I'll buy that. Its the same philsophy I support about the course of action I think Planned Parethood SHOULD take instead of giving them the address to the nearest Abortion clinic. Educated people will more than likely make the "right" decision.
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#52 Postby Arizwx » Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:51 pm

j wrote:Educate and make them aware so they can make an informed decision..I'll buy that. Its the same philsophy I support about the course of action I think Planned Parethood SHOULD take instead of giving them the address to the nearest Abortion clinic. Educated people will more than likely make the "right" decision.


And so,as well stated and meaning as your response is,we have come full circle so to speak,have we not?I refer again,back to my rather lengthly,quite possibly verbose missive of earlier this beautiful morning.
You refer to 'eduation' of the idealistic,the core schizm between our Native Cultures within the context of thier respective inceptions.We have grown,become more a people of many faces and beliefs...more permissive for all it entails,positive and negative...because we have the luxury of living in a Free Nation,free to choose,free to express,and given the resources.The People of Iraq,for decades have not.
How do you go about 'educating' a starving,paranoid people?How do we,understand the misery and suffering that they have endured?We must attempt to,we must understand at the very least,thier immediate needs...no strings attached,other than peaceful assembly and non combativeness.This is square one..and cannot get too far ahead of ourselves.We must gain..earn their trust.One cannot 'educate' and expect intelligent decisions from desperate,shell shocked citizens of Iraq.
Basic needs must be addressed and met,pronto.With all the reports of Civil Unrest in Baghdad and other cities,I have found it very tame.This gives me hope.They are good people,victimized.We must reward thier endurance with patience and an open mind.They have certainly afforded us this..and then some.Remember..Dignity.If we restore it.. the process of Peaceful Re-Patriation and will be less difficult, more meaningful and much more enduring.Then we may consider thier abilty to listen to a wide range of issues,not the least of which is choosing a Leader and commensurate Government..not based in Oppression,rather Freedom.
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#53 Postby streetsoldier » Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:35 pm

What does the average Arab-Iraqi know of Christianity? Look at how they refer to us..."Franks", "Anglo-Saxons", Crusaders"...remnants of a long-forgottten war to US, but as fresh as yesterday to THEM.

Even if Westerners are not Christians, it makes no difference in the Islamic street, in the minarets, in the muezzin's call...it's theological to THEM, and Islam is still wedded to "conversion by the sword"...it is so denoted in the Qu'ran. And remember the message that, for every "infidel" a Muslim kills, that same dead opponent will serve him as a slave in Paradise.

OH, YEAH, it's ideological!
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#54 Postby Steve H. » Thu Apr 17, 2003 4:20 pm

Is this a delicate topic :o Wildreman has his right to express his viewpoint. Let's not attack each other. The only proof that I have that the bible is of God and not of Satan is through faith. That and the fact that it brought this wretched alcoholic/drug addicted heathen to his knees and gave him back his life and his family. It gave me results, and the results gave me faith - and belief is built on that faith. That's why I know it is of God :wink:
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#55 Postby Rainband » Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:35 pm

I agree with j. I don't think anyone has the right to push religion on anyone. It is not our job to convert the Iraqi people. This world is big enough to have all different faiths. It would be a major mistake for the United States to look as if we were trying to impose Christian beliefs on the Iraqi people..who aren't already christians. Our job was to liberate them from saddam and we have done that..It will be interesting to see what happens next..Hopefully we don't make a Major mistake and try to change the Iraqi people and their beliefs... :roll: :roll: :roll: We shall see.

Johnathan :wink:
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#56 Postby WidreMann » Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:42 pm

Still using inflammatory rhetoric are you not Widre?Remember your 'other' thread regarding a 'Nicely Placed Nuke'?Have you not learned your lesson in thinking before you 'speak' so to speak?
Think Widre.Think.Your postulate is extremely sophomoric in nature,undeveloped and lacks supportive statement.
I find your response middle school in nature. You had the nerve to bring up the nuke statement, which has absolutely no bearing on this conversation whatsoever and moreover I apologized for it.

It sounds like a Middle Schooler being 'difficult' at the dinner table.Well,'Gee dad,what if..(fill in the rant du jour).Possibly you could be a part time writer for 'SouthPark'with this 'Devil's'Advocate baiting.
I am just challenging the idea that Christians are right and Muslims are wrong. In other words, I was cutting the foundation of Christianity down to size. It's no better than anyone else's opinion about the nature of the universe. That your best argument against it is a poorly attempted ad hominem just goes to show that you have no valid argument against it.

This thread is not about your misgivings,or your search,or Christians or Jews or Buddhists 'Proving' anything,other than the fact that Dogma is involved in Iraq,and the Arab World,and has been a Centre point of Culture for Thousands of years.One cannot dismiss fact.
Moreover,if you want 'proof' there is plenty to go around..IF one's heart and soul are open..this is a lock that you and you alone must decide to find a key to.Your choice.
Dogma is the center of EVERY religion. If you guys want go on pretending that Christianity is somehow different, go ahead, but you are wrong.

Did you take the time to read my response earlier in this thread?Did you learn anything?Methinks not.
I respect your Agnostic stance,and will not argue your right.But Widre,to use your 'logic'..what if you are wrong?
It doesn't matter if I am wrong because I do not claim to know. Christians do, and I was showing that they very well could be wrong. Blind faith doesn't get them off the hook because they could be having blind faith towards the wrong thing (in this case, Satan).
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#57 Postby Rainband » Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:43 pm

streetsoldier wrote:WidreMann, open your eyes...under the obvious headlines, this is, if not openly, a war of ideologies.

Apparently you are unaware that Islam, particluarly the Wahhabi cult (the same mentality that produced the Taliban and Osama) is the fastest growing religious-based organ in both Europe and America...our inner cities, our prisons have been converted into makeshift "madrasas" (Islamic theological schools), feeding on the "disenfranchised", the poor, criminals, and turning out thousands of hateful, dedicated Muslims who may well be described as an "internal clandestine force" awaiting orders.

This is no "conspiracy" flight of fancy; you know me to be much more than that. This "war" will take many years to finish...and the "enemy" ain't done yet.
The Taliban and Osama..DON'T Represent Islam..They hijacked it...GIVE ME A BREAK!!! You judge the many by the actions of a few!!!! :roll: :roll: Trust me if the whole Islamic community was like Osama..WE'D be screwed!!!! :lol: :lol: They out number us a TAD!!! :o

Johnathan :wink:
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#58 Postby WidreMann » Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:49 pm

Remember also that we aren't dealing with democratic capitalist societies with guaranteed basic human rights, we are dealing with repressed people. Naturally, they are more willing to go to the extreme, and will use religion as an excuse. So yes, Islam is probably on the whole more militant than Christianity, but that is not because of Islam, it is because of the situation over there.
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#59 Postby Stephanie » Thu Apr 17, 2003 6:38 pm

From what I understand is that Islam is supposed to be a religion that frowns upon violence overall. Osama bin Laden etc., and those that follow an extreme version of Islam like Wahhabi are the exception. All religions have their extremes, such as Orthodox Jews, and unfortunately, some have more violent interpretations.

Are you saying Bill that Islam is the enemy? We liberated Iraq so that the people could be free to worship and govern themselves as they choose to, not as we want them to.
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#60 Postby Rainband » Thu Apr 17, 2003 6:54 pm

Stephanie wrote:From what I understand is that Islam is supposed to be a religion that frowns upon violence overall. Osama bin Laden etc., and those that follow an extreme version of Islam like Wahhabi are the exception. All religions have their extremes, such as Orthodox Jews, and unfortunately, some have more violent interpretations.

Are you saying Bill that Islam is the enemy? We liberated Iraq so that the people could be free to worship and govern themselves as they choose to, not as we want them to.
AMEN!!! :wink:

Johnathan :D
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