MAJOR pattern change coming, Midwest snowstorm NOV 23-25

Winter Weather Discussion

Moderator: S2k Moderators

Forum rules

The posts in this forum are NOT official forecast and should not be used as such. They are just the opinion of the poster and may or may not be backed by sound meteorological data. They are NOT endorsed by any professional institution or STORM2K.

Help Support Storm2K
Message
Author
User avatar
wxguy25
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:44 pm
Location: East Central Florida
Contact:

MAJOR pattern change coming, Midwest snowstorm NOV 23-25

#1 Postby wxguy25 » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:20 pm

This first issue that needs to be addressed is the warming taking place over the past two weeks in the ENSO region 1+2. This was first discussed by a few days ago in a great post by Don.

http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=52761

The increase in SSTA over the 1+2 region which has occurred in the past week is really nothing substantial; however it is the highest weekly-averaged value observed in this region since Early JAN 2003 and is most certainly indicative of the fact that EL NINO conditions are present and persisting.

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/data/indices/wksst.for
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/a ... week_c.gif

I don’t expect this warming to have much if any adverse effect on the evolution of the pattern over the western hemisphere since its probably not sustainable, and the strength of the Anomalous SSTs are < +1.0 C. The strong ENSO events of the past 30 years (1982-83, 1991-92, 1997-98) have seen SSTA in this region as high as +4.5 C.

Recall in the WINTER OUTLOOK I outlined my case for why this EN event will only reach weak to perhaps Borderline Moderate at the MOST; never coming close to attaining strong intensity or holding a candle to some of the better recognized events of the past thirty years. I also suggested that it would peak in the EARLY PORTION of the winter before declining during the late winter and dissipating in the spring—like 1963-64.

What is the reason for these ups and downs in the 1+2 region SSTA? The Answer is manifested in changes in short term fluctuations in zonal winds over the region which act as a mechanism which regulates large-scale changes in both Sea Surface and Sub Surface Ocean temps. We can track these changes by monitoring the depth of the EQUATORIAL THERMOCLINE (which separates the warmer upper ocean waters from the colder lower ocean). In El Nino events, the thermocline in the 1+2 region is deep or in cases of a strong event nearly flat.

Image
Above is a plot showing equatorial Sub-surface ocean temperatures and anomalies for NOV 9 (y-axis is the ocean depth (m) and the x-axis is the Longitude ranging from 140E to 100W).

Between 160E and 140W there is a pronounced area of sub-surface warmth. This area is coincident w/ the region of the greatest Positive Sea surface temperature anomalies in the 4.0 and 3.4 regions.

This latest warming episode coincided nicely with enhanced westerly zonal winds over the eastern EQPAC.

Image

Note the negative values over the 3.0 region and eastern portions of the 1+2 region indicating westerly 850mb U over the region. This is consistent w/ reduced upwelling and an increase in SSTA over the region. At h200 easterly anomalies have been noted which is also consistent w/ El Nino conditions (LLVL westerly anomalies below upper level easterlies). This would also indicate a weaker than normal Hadley-walker cell.

Here is a time-longitude section of h850 U anomalies

Image

These westerly wind bursts in the Low levels can accompany eastward propagating Kelvin waves, and a strongly –SOI.

The Ensembles are indicating that easterly h200 U anomalies this will continue over the next 14 days, which is favorable for continued warming.

Image

Westerly anomalies are also forecasted to continue at h850

Image

Both of these indices indicate a persistence of the current SSTA set-up over the equatorial pacific. Further warming or related variations should be dictated by the SOI and MJO.

A –SOI pulse can have similar warming effects since it forces a weakening the equatorial easterlies. Prior to the current upsurge in SSTA over the 1+2 region, the SOI dipped strongly negative.

2-Nov-2004 1010.80 1009.60 -10.60 -3.94 -4.45
3-Nov-2004 1010.24 1009.90 -16.10 -4.49 -4.51
4-Nov-2004 1008.56 1009.50 -24.30 -5.30 -4.61
5-Nov-2004 1007.36 1008.55 -25.90 -5.79 -4.88
6-Nov-2004 1008.16 1008.35 -19.50 -6.04 -5.03
7-Nov-2004 1011.09 1009.95 -11.00 -6.02 -5.08

Another noteworthy issue would be if the SOI which has been consistently negative in the means were to go positive in DEC. Some of the years which had a predominantly negative SOI that spiked positive during the OND period have tended to be BRUTAL winters in the EUS. Those years include:
1965, 1968, 1969, 1976, 1985, 1986, 1993. It almost happened in 1957 and 2002 where there was an upsurge but the SOI never got into positive territory for a month or more. We will have to see what DEC holds.

Image

Image

During the winter of 1963-64, the SOI was consistently through the OND period. If OND 2004 follows suit, it could strengthen 1963-64’s credibility as a viable analog.

Image

Image

The SOI values of 2003-04 have also resembled those of 1962-63 leading up to the winter of 1963-64.

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/current/soihtm1.shtml

Issue # 2…the Plains system—a catalyst for the forthcoming pattern change over North America.

The weak ridge off the east coast and position of the longwave trough over the Rockies and western plains (near 100W at 72hrs) and lack of a Greenland block or 50-50 low will prevent this from being an eastern US event.

Going on the 12z ECMWF depiction of the Sequence of events…A piece of Southern stream energy which gets kicked out into NM and west TX on TUE will eventually lift northward and phase with a digging PJ s/w over the western lakes on WED and THU forming a large closed upper low just north of lake superior. The SLP will deepen significantly while tracking from TX to NRN Indiana.

Too early to deal w/ the specifics, however suffice to say there will be a significant snowfall north and west of the track of the SFC low w/ the potential for a large SVR wx outbreak in the warm sector. Recall we discussed the possibility for such an event at the end of last week and during the weekend.

The 12z OP-GGEM is similar to the 12z ECMWF as were the 0z Canadian ensembles w/ the piece of STJ energy being kicked out of the SW and phasing w/ the PJ energy over the Midwest. Both SLP tracks are pretty much indistinguishable also.

http://meteocentre.com/models/gemglb_am ... _panel.gif
http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~gadomski/ENSCMCHGT_0z/f96.gif

0z UKMET was further east w/ the track of the SLP which goes from TX to near ERI (Erie, PA) by 0z NOV 25 while deepening to 994mb.

http://meteocentre.com/models/ukmet_ame ... _panel.gif

This track would shift the area of snowfall further eastward. If correct, look out south central MI, NRN IN, and perhaps Chicago. CLE could get clipped w/ the wraparound. And again, SVR threat in the warm sector.
The 0z GFS was much further NW as is the case w/ the 12z run having the SLP located over the UP of MI.

http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod ... 6_120l.gif

http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod ... 6_108l.gif

It would appear that the UKMET is the furthest east w/ the system and the GFS the outlier to the NW w/ the GGEM and ECMWF being the mid ground.

Remember though that the GFS is the model which is run at three different resolutions. From 0-144 hrs on the 0z cycle the GFS Is run at a grid resolution of 55km (T254) whereas the other globals are run at a consistent resolution w/o truncation to a different resolution. So the 0z GFS interpretation of the system is probably better than the 12z since between 84 and 240 hrs the GFS is run at a 77km/T170 resolution. From 240-384hrs at 0z/12z the GFS is run w/ a 108km /T126 resolution. The GFS truncation issue is one of the biggest problems with the model, in addition to the so far uncorrected cold bias and tendency for over phasing and over amplification east of the Rockies. An example of the GFS warm season problems is gridscale feedback that sets off the convective scheme and puts down a HUGE amount of QPF over a gridpoint. This can be traced back to problems with the models convective parameterization scheme.

The ECMWF is run w/ a 25 KM resolution through D10, the GGEM is run at about 85km through 240hrs and the NGP uses a 60km resolution. This issue of the GFS resolution came up quite a bit during the hurricane season, but is equally important during the winter.

The over phasing problem is the result of not only the truncation issue but potentially sparse RAOB data over a given location where the system or piece of energy is located (SW US or the PAC for example)

Issue # 3…pattern change.

The pattern change is set in motion once the closed low over the lakes region in the vort lobe on THU tilts STRONGLY negative while lifting northeastward toward Nova Scotia where it takes on the role of a 50-50 low and pumps the ridge downstream of it over Greenland.

http://www.sca.uqam.ca/models/ecmwf_ame ... 9panel.gif

This sets up a CLASSIC rex blocking pattern over the North Atlantic and sends NAO goes strongly negative. Notice how the low pressure center directly south of the blocking high.

Image

Behind the cold front, the cold air comes rushing into the EUS.

Image

Image

At the same time the ridge over the EPAC amplifies, and attempts to hook up with the block north of Alaska’s arctic coast. This would force the PV to reform further south.

IF at some point down the road the western ridge can hook up with the block over the north Atlantic the pattern could be forced into extreme amplification as the PV becomes displaced well to the south of its climatological position.

Down the road further w/ the new pattern in place the potential exists for a larger winter storm in the EUS between the NOV 25 and DEC 1 w/ the Greenland block in place, 50-50 low and PV nosing down toward Hudson bay.
Last edited by wxguy25 on Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
0 likes   

Anonymous

#2 Postby Anonymous » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:24 pm

I can hardly wait. I'll be in Heaven.

WOW, wxguy25!!!!!

What a SPECTACULAR post!!!

Now that's the best news I've ever heard!! I'm breaking out my mid-winter coat, gloves and hat, plus my deep winter snow boots.

Yeah I'm good to go.

BRING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


-Siberian Jeb!!!! BRING IT!!!!! :)
0 likes   

User avatar
wxguy25
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:44 pm
Location: East Central Florida
Contact:

#3 Postby wxguy25 » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:33 pm

Well I don’t think you will have to worry about not getting your chance to shovel, JEB. Riding the 1963-64 wave; this is what things may end up like snowfall wise in the BWI/DCA area.

DCA: 1963-64 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 T 6.4 8.9 11.7 6.2 0.4 0.0 0.0 33.6
BWI: 1963-64 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 T 9.7 10.3 18.2 13.2 0.4 0.0 0.0 51.8
IAD: 1963-64 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 T 9.0 10.8 14.9 9.3 0.6 0.0 0.0 44.6
0 likes   

Anonymous

#4 Postby Anonymous » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:48 pm

Some folks in my church have already asked me to shovel their walks come the first snows in January. I told them I might, if I have time. Also, I told them that I thought the first accumulating snows (to the tune of about one inch) would probably come in late December or around New Years'.

But now it sounds like it might be late THIS month!!

I love this message board SO MUCH!!!! :)

I love it even more than the new IPB version 2.0.2. that I just bought one week ago tonight!!!!!!! It's being hosted by Invision Power Board hosting, that way they do upgrades!

I like that shiny new IPB v 2.0.2 board so much, that I just admire it for 30 minutes at a time!! But I love this Storm2k board MUCH, MUCH more!!!

Thanks for your EXCELLENT weather post, wxguy25!!!!

You have made my day!!! I will savor a 63 degree jebwalk tomorrow after church services and I will literally be on Cloud nine, thinking of an early-winter snow jebwalk!!!! :) :)

-Polar Vortex Jeb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
0 likes   

User avatar
wxguy25
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:44 pm
Location: East Central Florida
Contact:

#5 Postby wxguy25 » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:56 pm

Jeb wrote:Some folks in my church have already asked me to shovel their walks come the first snows in January. I told them I might, if I have time. Also, I told them that I thought the first accumulating snows (to the tune of about one inch) would probably come in late December or around New Years'.

But now it sounds like it might be late THIS month!!

I love this message board SO MUCH!!!! :)

I love it even more than the new IPB version 2.0.2. that I just bought one week ago tonight!!!!!!! It's being hosted by Invision Power Board hosting, that way they do upgrades!

I like that shiny new IPB v 2.0.2 board so much, that I just admire it for 30 minutes at a time!! But I love this Storm2k board MUCH, MUCH more!!!

Thanks for your EXCELLENT weather post, wxguy25!!!!

You have made my day!!! I will savor a 63 degree jebwalk tomorrow after church services and I will literally be on Cloud nine, thinking of an early-winter snow jebwalk!!!! :) :)

-Polar Vortex Jeb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)


Late this month or Early DEC, something my come calling but given the time of year, it may be an inland event. Areas NW of the big cities will get in on some snow not unlike the event the before thanksgiving 2002.

The snow coming w/ the phasing this week will be explicitly regulated to the plains since the track of the SLP should be from TX into the lakes. For the mid Atlantic and MOST of the NE it’s an all rain event w/ SVR potential in the warm sector.

Then as said the 500 low lifts northeastward to NS/NF and becomes the new 50-50 low; thereby pumping the ridge over Greenland—sending the NAO negative and initiating the pattern change for the EUS.

THEN we have to worry about the potential for an EUS snow event b/c the synoptic pattern will favor it.

(wondering when KC is going to chime in)
Last edited by wxguy25 on Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 likes   

Anonymous

#6 Postby Anonymous » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:58 pm

Well, when it gets here, I'll love it!!! Yeah I got all my digging shovels all ready to go!!!

Yeah I'm ready for cold winter weather.
I've already enjoyed a 43-degree jebwalk and a 32-degree jebwalk. BRING ON that 22-degree jebwalk!!! :)

Watch me dig!!! :)


-Blizzard Jeb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
0 likes   

User avatar
Wnghs2007
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 6836
Age: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:14 pm
Location: Gwinnett-Barrow Line; Georgia
Contact:

#7 Postby Wnghs2007 » Sat Nov 20, 2004 11:33 pm

CHIME CHIME!!!!!!!!!

NOT TO COPY HOMER SIMPSON BUT WHOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

HAVE TO GET THRU THE TORNADIC OUTBREAK THAT JAN DISCUSSION WAS IMPLAYING.. COULD MAKE IT HERE
0 likes   

User avatar
wxguy25
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:44 pm
Location: East Central Florida
Contact:

#8 Postby wxguy25 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:10 am

I think the potential exists for SOME severe weather over your region, KC, but not on the scale of what it could be further west since most of the favorable dynamics will have moved off to the north into the TN/OH valleys

over the AR/MS/LA region is where the nastiest of it is going to be in the evening—most likely between 18z TUE and 0z WED.

I don’t want to get into it in depth right now but I have been keeping my eye on it (mentioned it in my posts above) the way I see it…as the s/w comes out and begins to lift northeastward, it will begin to tilt negative which ensures that ahead of the vort max there will be strong CVA and associated height falls providing the lift required. Plus the area appears to be under the influence of a Coupled jet pattern. Also aiding in the SVR potential is the powerful 55-60 KT LLJ evident on GFS BUFKIT soundings.

Image

The supercell threat is going to be maximized along the warm front, (which at 18z TUE should be running across SRN AR, NRN MS, AL per 0z GFS) where directional shear bolster SR helicity.
0 likes   

User avatar
yoda
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 7874
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:51 pm
Location: Springfield VA (20 mins south of DC)
Contact:

#9 Postby yoda » Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:13 am

wxguy25 wrote:I think the potential exists for SOME severe weather over your region, KC, but not on the scale of what it could be further west since most of the favorable dynamics will have moved off to the north into the TN/OH valleys

over the AR/MS/LA region is where the nastiest of it is going to be in the evening—most likely between 18z TUE and 0z WED.

I don’t want to get into it in depth right now but I have been keeping my eye on it (mentioned it in my posts above) the way I see it…as the s/w comes out and begins to lift northeastward, it will begin to tilt negative which ensures that ahead of the vort max there will be strong CVA and associated height falls providing the lift required. Plus the area appears to be under the influence of a Coupled jet pattern. Also aiding in the SVR potential is the powerful 55-60 KT LLJ evident on GFS BUFKIT soundings.

Image

The supercell threat is going to be maximized along the warm front, (which at 18z TUE should be running across SRN AR, NRN MS, AL per 0z GFS) where directional shear bolster SR helicity.


Excellent post. Anything for the MA? Yes, that 55-60 KT LLJ will aid in the shear for svr wthr.
0 likes   

User avatar
wxguy25
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:44 pm
Location: East Central Florida
Contact:

#10 Postby wxguy25 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:20 am

yoda wrote:Excellent post. Anything for the MA? Yes, that 55-60 KT LLJ will aid in the shear for svr wthr.


Possibly
0 likes   

User avatar
Wnghs2007
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 6836
Age: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:14 pm
Location: Gwinnett-Barrow Line; Georgia
Contact:

#11 Postby Wnghs2007 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:24 am

Dang...What do you know. SVR stays to my west again. As always. :roll: Figures.

Georgia Sucks. Alabama Mississppi Always get severe. :cry:
0 likes   

User avatar
wxguy25
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:44 pm
Location: East Central Florida
Contact:

#12 Postby wxguy25 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:27 am

I didn’t say you wouldn’t get any, just that the MAJORITY and the WORST of it would be further west and North of you. How far it extends into the mid Atlantic remains to be seen. Ill have a more descriptive post about it either tomorrow night or Monday.
0 likes   

User avatar
Wnghs2007
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 6836
Age: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:14 pm
Location: Gwinnett-Barrow Line; Georgia
Contact:

#13 Postby Wnghs2007 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:32 am

wxguy25 wrote:I didn’t say you wouldn’t get any, just that the MAJORITY and the WORST of it would be further west and North of you. How far it extends into the mid Atlantic remains to be seen. Ill have a more descriptive post about it either tomorrow night or Monday.



Yeah....Well I want to get into THE MAJORITY AND WORST.....ITs always to are west. ALWAYS. The LAST time I had Sig Severe was April 1998. When a Supercell went over my house. But besides 6 years ago nothing. IT ALWAYS. Dies out and is some nothing worth mentioning, tiny baby, Insignifigant, stubborn, broken line of showers or thunderstorms.

Georgia has screwed weather I swear to god. The Snow and ICE is always to far to the North East or North. And The severe is always to late at night and is to are west. IM MOVING AS SOON AS I TURN 18 AND GO TO COLLEGE. AWAY FROM THIS STATE.
0 likes   

User avatar
wxguy25
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:44 pm
Location: East Central Florida
Contact:

#14 Postby wxguy25 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:55 am

Wnghs2007 wrote:Yeah....Well I want to get into THE MAJORITY AND WORST.....ITs always to are west. ALWAYS. The LAST time I had Sig Severe was April 1998. When a Supercell went over my house. But besides 6 years ago nothing. IT ALWAYS. Dies out and is some nothing worth mentioning, tiny baby, Insignifigant, stubborn, broken line of showers or thunderstorms.


This is the type of thing that im trying to break folks away from. The idea and the basic mentality that if it never happened it MY HOUSE it never happened at all. That’s not the case. I remember when I was your age living in the Northeast, I grew up during some of the crappiest winters (snow wise) of the 20th century. Those of the late 80s and 90s. I remember seeing snowstorms to my north, or to my south, but never over me w/ the exceptions of 1992-93 and 1993-94. Im no stranger to being deprived of snow.

Georgia has screwed weather I swear to god. The Snow and ICE is always to far to the North East or North. And The severe is always to late at night and is to are west. IM MOVING AS SOON AS I TURN 18 AND GO TO COLLEGE. AWAY FROM THIS STATE.


Well you’re pretty vehement about getting out of GA. I would suggest central NY if you want snow. If your major is meteorology Cornell or SUNY Albany have great programs (or you could make me proud and do your undergrad at TAMU…LOL!! just don't get involved in any of the extracurricular stuff I did :oops: )
0 likes   

User avatar
ohiostorm
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 1582
Age: 40
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2002 2:51 pm
Location: Orlando, FL
Contact:

#15 Postby ohiostorm » Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:05 am

How will this effect eastern parts of Ohio?
0 likes   

User avatar
wxguy25
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:44 pm
Location: East Central Florida
Contact:

#16 Postby wxguy25 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:14 am

ohiostorm wrote:How will this effect eastern parts of Ohio?


lots of RAIN. Unless the 0z SAT UKMET were to verify. But it appears to be the outlier. All other models are ALOT further west. even in that case most of what you would get would be rain anyway but there might have been some snow.

Also following this, as it winds up there could be a NIC LES event w/ all the cold air coming over the lakes.

the major caviet here may end up being Boundary layer temps. its only NOV folks.
0 likes   


Return to “Winter Weather”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ElectricStorm, Google Adsense [Bot] and 10 guests