Texas Winter 2010-2011

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Re: Texas Winter 2010-2011

#7241 Postby wall_cloud » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:25 pm

Air Force Met wrote:
txagwxman wrote:
Crazy weather...but it should end next weekend for a while.


I've got lots of lessons learned for this past event. I am putting a bust review together and will be glad to share when its completed.

I already know where the forecast when wrong...and looking via hind site...it was very obvious that SE TX would see a freezing rain event...even with the available guidance.

BASICALLY: I saw the negatives...and dis-regarded them because the models themselves were putting down snow. The GFS/NAM/Euro/GEM were all putting out snow depths of varying degrees. I falsely assumed (and that is because I don't know how the models do the calculating) that the "snow" parameters were built into the models and that THEY would QC themselves...and if certain parameters were not met...then they wouldn't put a 1" snow depth over an area. I assumed the model would know the critical thicknesses. That's why when I noticed that critical temps and critical thicknesses were not being met...I assumed I wasn't reading something right.

Well...I was reading it right and the model was ignoring it. That makes it even more frustrating. It's one thing to blow a forecast because you didn't see something. Its another thing to blow it when you know what the rules of thumb are saying...and you ignore them because the model said something different. THAT'S being a model reader and I've always hated it when forecasters do that (since so many today have lost the true skills of forecasting and instead read the models).

Another critical value that I saw lacking...spoke about it here and talked at length to Jeff about it on Tuesday/Wednesday (and with several other mets as well) was the -8C critical temp rule of thumb. That rule says "If you have a melting layer, then the temp of the cold layer below MUST be -8C somewhere in the column. If not, freezing rain is the result."

None of the models showed that -8C mark at anything below 600MB...and above 500-600mb...it was dry...so no snow being made there. THEN...even when it was moist...the melting layer at 850-700 was thick enough to melt the snow above it...and there was no -8C below it...so it fell as sleet and freezing rain. If the snow melts...you must reach -8C for it to re-freeze into snow. If not...it remains super-cooled and liquid until it reaches the ground...or it turns to sleet.

So yes...a very frustrating forecast...especially given that temps were never below -8C...and the critical thicknesses of 1000-500, 850-500, and 700-500 (the last two are VERY important if you have a warm layer...which we did) were all above the threshold. And in this instance...the last 2 were spot on if you took a blend of them. ALSO...using the partial thickness table...the Rules state...if you have a 1000-850 thickness of 129-131 DM...and a 850-700 thickness of >154 DM, you should expect "Freezing rain, with sleet near 154DM on the 850-700."

At 06z, Houston had thicknesses of 129 and 155. So...freezing rain mixed with sleet...
At 12Z...127 and 154. That rules states: "Freezing rain/freezing drizzle and sleet" with weak upper level forcing and little/no CAA at the surface.

I will have more in my bust review...but the best thickness values for this event (due to the warm layer) was the 850-500 thickness. It was almost spot on...


A look at the soundings at LCH/CRP points out the obvious reasons why ice was observed and not snow. Initially, the column was saturate at LCH through a very deep layer. However, looking at the CRP 00z sounding shows drying in the mid/upper levels. This drying in the -12 to -18 C layer result in an absence of dendrites (ice crystals) which means you don't see much, if any, snow. Both soundings showed warm layers aloft which would preclude snow despite the presence of any dendrites. The models typically underforecast the strength of the warm nose. Very common model error.

00Z
Image Image

After 00z, the soundings became very dry aloft, which further removed the presence of dendrites. The 12z CRP sounding terminated early but even as far east as LCH the column was drying out from the top down. The CRP sounding was now at or below freezing throughout the column but a pronounced warm nose was still see at LCH (=freezing rain/sleet).

12Z
Image Image

Look at the drying that is very apparent on the water vapor loop from 04/00z to 04/13z.

http://tinyurl.com/4u6m2x8
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Re: Texas Winter 2010-2011

#7242 Postby Portastorm » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:50 pm

Thank you so much Air Force Met, wall__cloud, and txagwxman for sharing your insights and thoughts with us like this. I personally have been wondering why we got freezing drizzle in AUS instead of snow. And then I see this awesome synoptic discussion from the pros. I feel like I'm a baseball fan in the clubhouse listening to major-league ballplayers comparing notes!

What a great learning opportunity for all of us.
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#7243 Postby wall_cloud » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:52 pm

I really would have like to diagnose everything prior to the event but I was out of town at a conference for the week. Just got home this evening.
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#7244 Postby snow4444 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:53 pm

Hey so what are the new models showing for Sunday and Next Week For dfw
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Re: Texas Winter 2010-2011

#7245 Postby Tireman4 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:54 pm

Portastorm wrote:Thank you so much Air Force Met, wall__cloud, and txagwxman for sharing your insights and thoughts with us like this. I personally have been wondering why we got freezing drizzle in AUS instead of snow. And then I see this awesome synoptic discussion from the pros. I feel like I'm a baseball fan in the clubhouse listening to major-league ballplayers comparing notes!

What a great learning opportunity for all of us.


Thank you, thank you, thank you Air Force Met, Txagwxman and Wall_Cloud. Wow. Meteorology 101 folks. Thanks. That was today's lecture and a danged good one.
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Re: Texas Winter 2010-2011

#7246 Postby Ntxw » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:14 pm

Such great analysis! I feel like such a newbie with all this pro met talk pffft! Makes it seem the knowledge I have is about as thick as the number of times Portastorm has had snow!

NWS is forecasting rain/snow albeit light for Superbowl Sunday. Will be interesting. NAM and GFS have questionable thermals especially near the surface. We sha'll see!
Sunday: A chance of rain and snow. Mostly cloudy, with a high near 39. North northwest wind between 5 and 15 mph, with gusts as high as 20 mph. Chance of precipitation is 30%.

Sunday Night: Partly cloudy, with a low around 28. Northwest wind between 10 and 15 mph, with gusts as high as 20 mph.
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#7247 Postby pwrdog » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:16 pm

Maybe one day the Houston/Galveston NWS will start sending up ballons... Why they don't is still dumbfounding.. Houston is the 4th largest city, 2nd largest port and largest petrochemical center in america... The gap along the coast of 300 miles seems odd.. Does anyone no why this is..?? And it also in a big transition area of weather... Corpus and Lake Charles weather is very different... About 30 inches of rain different..

The NWS radar gap around Lake Livingston sucks as well.... Closest Radar about 100 miles away.. Others are much farther.. But I'd take a houston sounding over a new radar closer..
Last edited by pwrdog on Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:

#7248 Postby wall_cloud » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:17 pm

pwrdog wrote:Maybe one day the Houston/Galveston NWS will start sending up ballons... Why they don't is still dumbfounding.. Houston is the 4th largest city, 2nd largest port and largest petrochemical center in america... The gap along the coast of 300 miles seems odd.. Does anyone no why this is..??

The NWS radar gap around Lake Livingston sucks as well.... Closest Radar about 100 miles away.. Others are much farther.. But I'd take a houston sounding over a new radar closer..


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Re: Re:

#7249 Postby pwrdog » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:22 pm

wall_cloud wrote:
pwrdog wrote:Maybe one day the Houston/Galveston NWS will start sending up ballons... Why they don't is still dumbfounding.. Houston is the 4th largest city, 2nd largest port and largest petrochemical center in america... The gap along the coast of 300 miles seems odd.. Does anyone no why this is..??

The NWS radar gap around Lake Livingston sucks as well.... Closest Radar about 100 miles away.. Others are much farther.. But I'd take a houston sounding over a new radar closer..


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I figured that... But for what the city means to the nation, It's still hard to understand.. Just sending up one a day would be better than nothing..
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Re: Texas Winter 2010-2011

#7250 Postby wall_cloud » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:23 pm

the soundings were strategically placed to maximize coverage while limiting number of sites. I'd love for a sounding to go up there or EWX as well but I don't see it happening anytime soon, if ever.
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Re: Re:

#7251 Postby bktkck » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:29 pm

Here is our local news meteorologist and his explanation of some other Texas lake effects snow and the dynamics creating it.http://www.kltv.com/Global/link.asp?L=329296
Rgv20 wrote:
wall_cloud wrote:
Rgv20 wrote:Nice graphic by the NWS in Brownsville...WOW

Image


Can you substantiate that the feature was a snowband and not an orographic low cloud or snow?

I'm not saying that it isn't because these mesoscale features can occur anywhere. However, that band doesn't appear to be in the right location. That appears to be an AWIPS image but its hard to trust a source that talks of an unsual "phemonenon".


The only substantial snow fall reported in Starr county was in Salineno so I believe its showing snow in that image and everything inside the blue line there was reports of snow.

If that makes any sense..lol
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Re: Texas Winter 2010-2011

#7252 Postby HockeyTx82 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:31 pm

Temp already below forecasted low by 10PM.

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.ph ... 4&map.y=69

How low can it go? (I realize the dewpoint is 12, but could that go down with all of the snow around?)
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Re: Texas Winter 2010-2011

#7253 Postby Ntxw » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:59 pm

You know, the Canadian didn't do too bad with the storm that just hit. For DAYS, it showed a fairly healthy system with good qpf. I wonder if the GFS threatened it to lower its expectations! It also did a good job showing that 850 temps were on the fine line and at times warm for SE Texas.
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Re: Texas Winter 2010-2011

#7254 Postby tecohorn » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:08 am

HockeyTx82 wrote:Temp already below forecasted low by 10PM.

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.ph ... 4&map.y=69

How low can it go? (I realize the dewpoint is 12, but could that go down with all of the snow around?)


My first post... Lurked for a few weeks.. Howdy!

I'm pretty sure I will set a record winter low 2010/11 for my location..

It's already 18.2 at my farm with a dewpoint that just keeps falling, down to 16 dp now... I do live in one of the best Radiative cooling spots in SE Texas though...

I'd say some of the favored spots could see 14/15 tonight here in SE Texas..
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#7255 Postby snow4444 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:09 am

So what are the nw models saying NWS FW says the 00Z Name shifted the track south for Sunday spreading snow further south throughout the Metroplex.
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Re: Texas Winter 2010-2011

#7256 Postby iorange55 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:36 am

CMC still showing the system middle of next week.....and also at the end of its run showing another snow chance in Texas. Probably a hiccup since every other model shows a big warming trend.
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#7257 Postby Shoshana » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:44 am

Thanks y'all! It's been a very informative couple of weeks around here!

I think I'll be buying popcorn and lurking for the upcoming events - as far as I can see all we are forecast to get so far is rain midweek. But I'll be telling my people in DFW to get out and replenish supplies as soon as it's safe!

:popcorn:
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Re: Texas Winter 2010-2011

#7258 Postby horns0314 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:55 am

tecohorn wrote:
HockeyTx82 wrote:Temp already below forecasted low by 10PM.

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.ph ... 4&map.y=69

How low can it go? (I realize the dewpoint is 12, but could that go down with all of the snow around?)


My first post... Lurked for a few weeks.. Howdy!

I'm pretty sure I will set a record winter low 2010/11 for my location..

It's already 18.2 at my farm with a dewpoint that just keeps falling, down to 16 dp now... I do live in one of the best Radiative cooling spots in SE Texas though...

I'd say some of the favored spots could see 14/15 tonight here in SE Texas..



A couple of weeks... Haha. You are a legend on orangebloods.com for your weather knowledge, and have been referencing this site for years now. Tecohorn will bring a ton of expertise to this site.

I am long time lurker, new poster as well.
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Re: Texas Winter 2010-2011

#7259 Postby tecohorn » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:55 am

horns0314 wrote:
tecohorn wrote:
HockeyTx82 wrote:Temp already below forecasted low by 10PM.

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.ph ... 4&map.y=69

How low can it go? (I realize the dewpoint is 12, but could that go down with all of the snow around?)


My first post... Lurked for a few weeks.. Howdy!

I'm pretty sure I will set a record winter low 2010/11 for my location..

It's already 18.2 at my farm with a dewpoint that just keeps falling, down to 16 dp now... I do live in one of the best Radiative cooling spots in SE Texas though...

I'd say some of the favored spots could see 14/15 tonight here in SE Texas..



A couple of weeks... Haha. You are a legend on orangebloods.com for your weather knowledge, and have been referencing this site for years now. Tecohorn will bring a ton of expertise to this site.

I am long time lurker, new poster as well.


I think you have me confused with aggiecutter... He was or has been a member of this site for several years..

He turned me on to this site last year or so but I really didn't need another addiction at the time.. But thanks for the kind words..

The knowledge and expertise on this site is top notch for sure.. And blows away what I know...

After reading this whole thread...I think I just broke a rule with my second post..? Sorry I will keep in the guidelines from this point forward..
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Re: Texas Winter 2010-2011

#7260 Postby Air Force Met » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:53 am

wall_cloud wrote:


A look at the soundings at LCH/CRP points out the obvious reasons why ice was observed and not snow. Initially, the column was saturate at LCH through a very deep layer. However, looking at the CRP 00z sounding shows drying in the mid/upper levels. This drying in the -12 to -18 C layer result in an absence of dendrites (ice crystals) which means you don't see much, if any, snow. Both soundings showed warm layers aloft which would preclude snow despite the presence of any dendrites. The models typically underforecast the strength of the warm nose. Very common model error.


And having to extrapolate over HOU doesn't help. I really with they would add upper air to the HGX office.
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